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NEWS: Kurokami's U.S. BD Release to Have English Dub Only


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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:35 pm Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
Pretty sure he meant the fact that Japanese audio track is already available in the master tapes/source from the licensor, from whom Bandai US will be doing the transfer from.
That's not a fact, that's a speculation and a wrong one at that. The animation is created first, then the voices are mixed on to them, It would cost way more to have to digitally strip the language track back off and then redub on top with English when they will have the clean masters from the Japanese voice over sessions. It will have been a copy of those sent to BE US.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:34 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
configspace wrote:
Pretty sure he meant the fact that Japanese audio track is already available in the master tapes/source from the licensor
That's not a fact, that's a speculation and a wrong one at that.
The definitely do have Japanese audio since the DVD is a hybrid, although they may not have the HD version of the Japanese track.
Quote:
The animation is created first, then the voices are mixed on to them
Last I heard Japan still prelayed using Leica reels.
Quote:
It would cost way more to have to digitally strip the language track back off and then redub on top with English when they will have the clean masters from the Japanese voice over sessions. It will have been a copy of those sent to BE US.
I lost you there.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:08 pm Reply with quote
I think I understand what you're saying--hypothesizing--in terms of the final tapes/sources delivered to Bandai US i.e. there are two deliverables: video + JP audio / video + EN audio; but not: video + JP + EN audio. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter. The fact is that both English and Japanese tracks are available from the very beginning and in some master form(s) that could have been given to Bandai US. In fact, the process you mentioned just shows that the audio track is not inherently tied with the video at all. (and if it was digital I don't see how there's any cost to manipulate/multiplex/demultiplex).

So again, even if there are two different masters for each language that does not pose a technical problem at all. It's not like licensees just use whatever is handed in its original form and slap them onto BD/DVD. If Bandai US were given the license, it's a relatively trivial task to mix/combine the tracks, which is already being done for the DVD mind you.

Simply put, this decision for the lack of JP audio was done not out of any technical hurdle. Remember the reason stated was that "we don't have the license", not that it was technically impossible.
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:09 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
I think I understand what you're saying--hypothesizing--in terms of the final tapes/sources delivered to Bandai US i.e. there are two deliverables: video + JP audio / video + EN audio; but not: video + JP + EN audio. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter. The fact is that both English and Japanese tracks are available from the very beginning and in some master form(s) that could have been given to Bandai US. In fact, the process you mentioned just shows that the audio track is not inherently tied with the video at all. (and if it was digital I don't see how there's any cost to manipulate/multiplex/demultiplex).

So again, even if there are two different masters for each language that does not pose a technical problem at all. It's not like licensees just use whatever is handed in its original form and slap them onto BD/DVD. If Bandai US were given the license, it's a relatively trivial task to mix/combine the tracks, which is already being done for the DVD mind you.

Simply put, this decision for the lack of JP audio was done not out of any technical hurdle. Remember the reason stated was that "we don't have the license", not that it was technically impossible.
If you're implying by "video + EN audio" you mean vision with English language track, being shipped from Bandai Japan, then no that's not correct. The hybrid DVD is encoded for SD 525 for R1. The English only Blu-Ray will have to be 1080p from the get go, if the final product is to be true HD, but the language will have been mixed with the 1080p master that only had background music and sounds there in the US. That will have been the cheapest way of doing the two separately, however it could be that the 1080p master had the Japanese audio track as well, which could be down converted to NTSC, but regardless it's an expensive bit of kit to be able to strip the Japanese off; too expensive to warrant purchasing it just for the very odd occasion that it would be needed. Much too much hassle, cheaper to ship two masters then mix and edit them seperately. Regardless, if Bandai Japan says to Bandai Ent US "no hybrid Blu-Ray" then no hybrid Blu-ray it is, and that's that! Wink
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:44 pm Reply with quote
You do realise that in order to create the english dub they don't just get sent a DVD with the Japanese audio on it, right? They get audio masters that include separate vocal, sfx and music tracks.
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Dargonxtc



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:44 pm Reply with quote
Sorry for the late reply.
Kalessin wrote:
I [sus]pect that the drop in episode count has more to do with Bandai Entertainment trying to make money than the Japanese requiring it. It costs more to produce BDs than DVDs. They probably decided to reduce the episode count rather than increase the price.

Really? You think these guys have business degrees? Sarcasm aside, I think I disagree with this. First off, BD might be more expensive to produce than DVDs, but the cost has been steadily coming down now for almost a year. Secondly, the customer base that buys BDs already expect to pay more. I fully realize that I will be paying $5-10 more per release on a BD as compared to a DVD counterpart. Most people who buy Blu-ray have already come to the same realization and I dare say most accept it. Other anime companies are releasing 13 episode Blu-rays dubbed, and that is initial release, not re-release. Bandai certainly could make due making Kurokami a 4 volume initial BD release instead of making it a 6 volume release. The cost is not that great. Plus most anime fans know how to add and sales would almost assuredly be much greater for a lesser volume release. Considering the shift in release patterns that happened almost two years ago it can be accurately assumed that the people in the know at Bandai USA fully realize that this type of pattern is going to be a determent to sales, not a boon.

No, I think the decision to withhold the language track came with conditions that the subsequent BD be further restricted. Why you ask? Because the Japanese wanted to protect not only against reverse importation, but also the new format for which they can justify keeping their prices as high as they are. Quality arguments could be made against American DVDs and Japanese produced ones, not just with anime but with any DVD. Think DVD-9, etc... With the advent of BD, the quality aspect becomes much more blurred. It scares them... badly. It is one more feather that is removed from their hat. So when they react, they do so vehemently. So it is not so far of a stretch that certain companies will not only react, but over-react.

Of course... There is no way to know what the decision makers at Bandai USA are thinking or what really went down. You may very well be right, I won't deny the possibility. Though I presume thinking about it rationally it can be rightly assumed that this was an edict from the Japanese. But please don't take offense when I say I hope you are wrong. I would like to think the people running Bandai USA are not idiots. Razz

pparker wrote:
Saying that the "Japanese" wouldn't give them the rights doesn't absolve them from responsibility for designing and scheduling this release.

True, they could have not released it, or they could have delayed it more. But remember, I had the Kurokami DVDs pre-ordered almost 7 months ago. The actual initial release was something like 4½ months ago. We found out not too long after the initial DVD set was canceled that a Blu-ray was in the works. My guess is that the work on the Blu-ray was completed long ago and the final product was just waiting to be pieced together for all this time. They probably wanted to release it sooner but ran into trouble with the Japanese. The completed product has probably been burning a hole in their pocket for a long time, and they just wanted to get it out there. By this time the cost of pressing is probably insignificant. This is all conjecture of course. But I bet the initial release will be a micro-pressing, with a larger more R1 friendly release coming down the line sometime next year. I think that this release was just a stop-gap "get what they can" so that the acquisition can stop pulling a negative in their balance sheets for the year. If they can make more money that the cost of pressing I think they will be happy.

Zalis116 wrote:
Given the growing sentiment of "official, professionally translated subtitled anime on DVD/BD is worthless" (as seen in every thread ever dealing with sub-only releases), I think this dub-only release is a good move. After all, people don't want to pay for language tracks they don't want, right?

Oh come on Zalis! You're smarter than this. And I will leave it at that.
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:09 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
You do realise that in order to create the english dub they don't just get sent a DVD with the Japanese audio on it, right? They get audio masters that include separate vocal, sfx and music tracks.
If you're asking me, then yes I am aware which is what I'm alluding to? That if they only want a format to be English only, like the Blu-ray, they won't send the Japanese audio as it won't be needed. I also don't believe the master would be a DVD, but a broadcast quality Sony Beta HDcam SR video tape. The home of "true" HD-1080i (Yes boys & girls. Betamax never died. it always ruled the world of broadcasting and still does. Only server based data will finally kill it off. Bwahahahahahaha!) Wink
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:56 pm Reply with quote
..so you know they already have the Japanese masters or they couldn't have made the English dub which is on the DVDs.
It's not that they don't have the Japanese track, it is that they are not authorised to include it on the blu-ray.
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:45 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
..so you know they already have the Japanese masters or they couldn't have made the English dub which is on the DVDs.
It's not that they don't have the Japanese track, it is that they are not authorised to include it on the blu-ray.
DVD=SD, Blu-ray=HD. Apples, oranges. Upconverted SD is no HD. Wink
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teh*darkness



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:50 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
You do realise that in order to create the english dub they don't just get sent a DVD with the Japanese audio on it, right? They get audio masters that include separate vocal, sfx and music tracks.

&
Shiroi Hane wrote:
..so you know they already have the Japanese masters or they couldn't have made the English dub which is on the DVDs.
It's not that they don't have the Japanese track, it is that they are not authorised to include it on the blu-ray


Uh, so you know they made the dub of this around the same time the Japanese dub was being made, since they aired it on IATV within hours of it airing in Japan, and they dubbed it with a script and the storyboards?
They would have only gotten any version of the Japanese dub for use on home video media, not for dubbing into English. Not that this information changes any of what you're saying, but the circumstances surrounding Kurokami have been decidedly strange from the get-go.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Here's a little anecdotal evidence about the reality of reverse imports in Japan, taken from Jonathan Clements' column in November's Neo.

Quote:
[...]
In January 2009, as the sterling exchange rate sank to a shameful 128 yen, a blogger in Japan began posting his musings on grey imports Blimey, he said, I can buy Monty Python for a fraction of the Japanese price, and have it sent to me from the UK. Come to think of it, I can buy a LAPTOP, too. A different plug on the cable and I'm laughing!
Initially, activity was timid. A few early adpopters broke out their credit cards to see how it might work out. When one of them posted a hjappy photograph of the battered buy solid Amazon UK parcel on his Tokyo doorstep, the floodgates opened.
The first I heard about it was a day later, when a worried anime distributor called to pick my brains. UK online sales of one of his company's titles, which we shall have to call Schoolgirl Milky Crisis, had suddenly, dramatically spiked. Initial elation turned to concern - why was he suddenly rushing to meet orders so much larger than usual? It turned out that the orders were mainly going abroad, and that's when he asked me to dig around on the internet.
It took less than a minute for me to track down the anime speculators and their exited bloggery. Which only made matters worse, because it I could do it, so could the Japanese licence holder. Many Japanese companies are utterly petrified of this sort of thing. You wish your anime were cheaper? They wish it were more expensive, because grey imports give them nightmares.
It was only a few months ago, in this very column, that I was discussing the symptoms of Blu-Ray Blues, whereby a company tried to centralise and standardise all editions of a release into a single Japan-made disc. But if that super-master-disc, containing all language versions, is 40% cheaper abroad than it is in Japan, it would play havoc with a company's Japan-based statistics, economics and decision-making. Domestic sales will always come first for the Japanese, as foreign money, in these credit-crunchy times, is back to being just gravy. This, in turn, will present accountants in a Tokyo office with a sudden desire to force distributors in the UK to raise their prices to discourage Japanese grey-import opportunists!


And this is the UK remember; our anime market is smaller, slower and more expensive than America's.
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ConanSan



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:05 am Reply with quote
Our market is a two horse and several other retards race.
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:56 pm Reply with quote
This is what I mean when I say the Japanese spend too much time naval gazing and not thinking laterally. All they have to do is persude their government to stick a hefty tariff on any DVD imports and they will only have to fight the fansubbers instead. I laugh at that Japanese distributor fretting about his increased output going overseas not realising that his output is increasing which I would think is the main purpose of being in the business. Would he rather it not increase, or even stagnate, and watch as the world gets to see it anyway via the intarweb for free? Better to get some "grey money" than no money at all. Wink
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