Forum - View topicMonster (TV) [Dub Broadcast].
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bleachj0j
 Posts: 926 |
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Monster (TV) Source: Manga (completed @ 18 volumes, by Naoki Urasawa) Demographic: Seinen Animation Studio: Madhouse Genres: drama, horror, mystery, psychological, slice of life, thriller Themes: amnesia, assassins, conspiracy, crime, detective, Europe, historical, medicine, moral dilemma, nazis, police, redemption, revenge, serial killer, tragedy Plot Summary: Kenzou Tenma, a Japanese neurosurgeon living in Düsseldorf, Germany, had it all: incredible skill, a rich, beautiful fiancee, and a promising career. However, after becoming disenchanted by hospital politics, he encounters a moral dilemma and chooses to save the life of an unknown young boy, instead of the city's mayor. As a result, he lost his support from the director, the engagement with his fiancee, and his prestigious title as chief neurosurgeon. Shortly after, the director and doctors that replaced him are mysteriously murdered, catapulting him back to the top, and making him the prime suspect. Several years later, Dr. Tenma is reunited with the boy he saved, only to discover that the, now, young man has become a serial killer. In a long, arduous, and conspiracy-filled journey of pursuit, Tenma must make, yet another, difficult moral choice: whether or not to end the young man's life. Air Date & Platform: Japan: April 6, 2004 (Tuesday) Available on: Netflix U.S. Dub: October 12, 2009 (Monday) Available on: Netflix Episode Count / Runtime: 74 episodes Last edited by bleachj0j on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:15 pm; edited 26 times in total |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I must have seen the first episode over a dozen times since I first saw the show, but something has occurred to me only recently - the morality of Tenma's decision to save the boy over the mayor is never questioned by the viewers. Of course, his motives are understandable, and in the light of what happened to the Turkish construction worker (which is coupled with his director's disgusting callousness), it is the only decision that he could have made in good conscience, but... as Heinemann said, the mayor did promise the hospital a large subsidy.
Now, of course Heinemann was enthusiastic about the prospect of filling his own pockets, but some of the money would have bled over to actually help the hospital advance and thereby help more people. Tenma is more or less playing out that cliche scenario of sacrificing a trainful of people for one single child, but no one (except for Heinemann and other "horrible people who get their comeuppance") ever blames him, especially not the audience. I wonder if it was Urasawa's intent to play with the audience's perception of the morality of Tenma's decision. I'll preemptively say that none of the criticism leveled at Tenma is done out of spite at either his character or Urasawa - I rather wish to examine all the ways and angles in which Urasawa chose to build his story. Another thing I find fascinating is the whole equality of life thing. I rather tend to agree with Eva... but I suppose that this discussion is best kept for later on. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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No, I think saving the boy was morally and ethically the best course of action.
1): A child is innocent (or, at least, most children are), and therefore has more life to live than an adult. This wasn't a choice between the American president and a child; is a mayor of a medium-sized city important enough to justify being put ahead of a child? For that matter, is the president important enough? 2): People expected the mayor to be saved. It is this presumption of importance that suggests the mayor really wasn't a nice man, and therefore morally deserving to be lower down on the list than a good person. Oh yes sure, even not-very-nice people should be treated by medical staff, but they should most certainly not jump the queue. 3): There was no guarantee that the mayor would die if the other doctor treated him, and there was also no guarantee that he would be automatically saved if Tenma operated on him; Tenma merely gave him a better chance. 4): There was no guarantee that the money that was promised to the hospital was going to even save a single life. Sure, the hospital itself presumably would gave gotten most of the money after the directors had taken their cut, but who's to say it would have gone onto frontline staff? Hence, the comparison with "a trainful of people" is moot. 5): To paraphrase an ex-cop I heard on the radio yesterday, the day when people choose the life of an adult over the life of a child is the day we can all pack up and go home, as far as society's concerned. This sort of ties into point one, in that it is a culture's job to protect children, even at the cost of protecting an adult to the same degree. Tenma was in a morally-grey quagmire, but he made the best choice he could. He wasn't pondering what might happen if such-and-such happened, he was dealing with two patients, one a man and the other a child. For him it was simple. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I'm not following your logic here: the mayor was beloved by the people = equals the mayor was a dick? The citizens were shown mourning his death, not jumping for joy. (Of course you can argue that that's what the media would want you to believe, but Urasawa didn't have to include it if he didn't want our image of the mayor to be negative.)
Tenma was the chief of neurosurgery at the time and the logical choice. Note that the director employed the top three doctors for the mayor, leaving the incompetent Becker to the kid.
As I said, some of the money was bound to be given for the actual benefit to the hospital, at least for publicity reasons if not out of actual philanthropy.
Funny you should say that considering the spoiler[Johann versus Wim choice]. Again, I'm not blaming Tenma for anything, I'm just exploring the different moral facets of his decisions. |
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daedelus
 Posts: 743 Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05) |
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Well, only two episodes down, and I can already see why this series is so well-liked. There is a slow, simmering plot at work here and I can't wait to see how it all unfolds.
Liam O'Brien is in top form. While he does sound a lot like Vincent Law from Ergo Proxy, his performance seems to fit Tenma's personality. As a disclaimer, I have not heard the Japanese track, and therefore cannot compare, but I like what I'm hearing. Next Monday can't come fast enough. 
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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In regards to the moral issue here, you may be overcomplicating it. I always just saw it as Tenma choosing not to abandon the surgery he was originally assigned to for some preferential political decision. He wasn't choosing one over the other, he was staying the course and therefore being impartial and fair. He was originally paged to come in and operate on this boy, and it was the more difficult operation. No one but himself could have done it, and Johan was the first to come in, not the mayor. I admire his choice and do think it was the right thing to do. He was not abandoning the mayor. He would have been abandoning Johan. I don't think he was comparing an adult to a child or being obstinate about the revolting politics in question at all. I think he was trying to be completely fair and equal. Little did he know...but those four words kick off all great tragedies, don't they? Just ask Will Ferrell! (Snickerdoodles to whoever gets that.)
I rather agree with Tenma that all human life is created equal, though. Maybe I'm biased? (Man, I have Monster comin' outta my ears recently.  Geeeeez. And my roommate is reading it because I've had it always on and whatnot recently. Monstermonstermonster. I think I love it way more now than I did at first though. Probably in my top ten if I had one...I should make one. All I know is my top 5, but I'm sure this and Baccano! would be in a top ten if I stopped to do one.)
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I could be over-complicating it, but Urasawa is such a careful, meticulous person that it's hard to envision him disregarding this issue completely. He made the conscious choice to make the person not only prominent, but very instrumental in the life of the city and - appatently - that of the hospital - and we have to ask why.
After all, he'd set up the immense irony of Tenma getting angry at Eva's comment and proceeding to say "[Heinemann and co.] should be dead instead" (and there's just no way he would have done that unintentionally as a story-teller), so there is, I think, a clear intent to play with the reader/viewer and his values. If we agree with Tenma, then why are we so overjoyed at the supervisors' deaths?
Really? If you had to choose between Tenma and Heinemann it'd be all the same? What about spoiler[Johann and Wim?] |
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bonbonsrus
 Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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I have the pleasure of knowing NOTHING about this show while starting it, other than hearing some buzz about it being good, so I am very much looking forward to seeing it and am very happy SyFy is showing it.
I saw some talk in the other Monster dub thread about the voices, and honestly, I hope I get used to these fast, because the first two episodes I kept wishing I had a different language tract to listen to...oh well, not enough to keep me from watching. I see here people calling the little boy Johan, correct? I didn't think they named him yet, however I recall people talking about him in other thread while discussing this show, so I am guessing he is a character of future importance, so I am looking forward to seeing more...I am trying like crazy to avoid any spoilers! Since I know so little about the show, I find myself wondering about the title and thinking, who is the monster? The director? The other doctors? The system? Maybe Dr. Tenma himself changes in the future due to these circumstances and becomes the monster...it's certainly possible that being so trampled down for trying to do the right thing could embitter someone. I like that this is starting now before halloween as well, fits a mood for sure, which I am happy about. It's very easy to feel for Dr. Tenma as well, and whatever you think about whether people are all created equal or not, the ex-fiancee is a piece of work, easy to dispise, and another guess for who is a monster here. I am so happy to be coming at this fresh and unbiased about what to expect! I am looking forward to more! |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Oh my God, are you in a for a really great ride. I of course won't spoil anything, . . . but . . . I . . . must fight . . . the urge . . . aargh. No, all I will say is that we get a pretty darn good idea about who the titular monster is within the first ten episodes. Indeed, within the first spoiler[four] episodes. I hope you only read the spoiler if you really wanted to. Anyway, have fun with your viewing. Oh, and don't look up the series on YouTube; so many people forget that and then get the show spoiled by the jerks in the comments sections. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Don't you mean Harold Crick?
Don't worry, it will become quite clear in time. Also, don't watch the last part of JO's villain countdown on YouTube. Major spoilers. |
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Harrycombs
Posts: 17 |
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I had heard about them being on iTunes, but not about Hulu. I don't see Monster on Hulu yet either. Where is the source for this? |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3013 |
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Well, I kind of agree with what JesuOtaku said that it wasn't so much about Tenma choosing to save the boy over the mayor, it was him choosing not to purposely abandon a boy who came in first just because a person with more connections was going to be coming in later. It was specifically about him NOT choosing to look at the potential patients and say "hmm, which one is most beneficial to me or most 'worthy' otherwise, that's the one I'll choose to save." Also, I think the choice Tenma made had the greatest chance of saving both the boy and the major. He had already seen the scans of the child, he knew that he was the only doctor there with a real chance of saving him, and he certainly knew that Dr Becker wouldn't be able to. There would have been a far greater chance of Dr Boyer and company being able to save the mayor than that of Dr Becker being able to save the boy: especially considering that at that time, they didn't even know for sure if the mayor was suffering from an nternal carotid occlusion. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator  Posts: 11442 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Little did he know... (such a great movie).
Created equal by technical terms of biology, yes. But "equality" is vastly different depending on socioeconomic, political, and cultural elements. I have to get to class now, but there's a point I'd like to make concerning anthropological views in a bit. [to be continued] |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Before you get any further with this, the series is not actually debating whether people are equal. They may or may not be - clearly, some people are born handicapped, some people are born with great talents, and some people are born in horrific circumstances that are near-impossible to overcome or escape, and gaging whether humans are therefore truly born equal is a complicated and tricky subject. What the series is actually dealing with is the value of each individual's life without regard to their personalities, achievements, attitudes, and flaws. This sort of segues back to the argument about saving children first: wouldn't Tenma's argument of people's lives having equal merit contradict this?
No, I know. I totally get Tenma's reasoning in the situation, and I am not blaming him for a single thing. I simply wish to delve deeper into the moral implications of the act, not just within the series' universe, but also with regards to the viewers' reception. As I said, Urasawa made the conscious choice to make the second patient the mayor. As the audience, we can say, well, why not the mayor? But he, as the creator, would have asked, well, why the mayor? Why also show that mayor in a positive light (people leaving flowers in the city hall and such), or mention that he promised the hospital money? We already know all about Heinemann's greed and hunger for publicity; there's no reason to reinforce it so soon after Tenma having flashbacks of that dialogue - in fact, it would seem rather redundant. I really don't think that I'm reaching much too far in saying that Urasawa would have wanted us to look at all the implications. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11442 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I know. I was just gonna' make a point to JesuOtaku and others by trying to show off a few things I learned in school this semester via my two anthropology classes. Granted this is a work of fiction we're discussing and that literary elements have a fine line between objective and subjective interpretations, but I think it might help to shine a little light or new ways to interpret Tenma's ideology. Now by "created equal," I already alluded to the biological aspect of how it happens (sex, duh), but that's a technicality and more of a jab at what I'm really trying to say. What I mean about equality (not to stray off the primary meaning of Urasawa's overall narrative) is that people aren't ever truly equal in any sense. People's personalities, quirks, mannerisms, dispositions, etc. are all a product of our culture and the way we grow up individually. Tenma acts and thinks the way he does because that's how he grew up and that's what he believes. The same can be said for Eva and her father, his goons, Dr. Becker, the construction worker's wife, and so on. And because of the variable elements that can factor into how it all works out within social, economic, or political systems I don't think it's prudent to ever suggest "all men/lives are/created equal." Even if we're at the same level or status of some profession or standing, we still may differ physically, mentally, or psychologically from the next person over. But, I think what Tenma's decision is trying to convey (in correlation to what you said about Urasawa's narrative), is that despite the differences, it's still possible for us to find some sort of common ground, and thus put a type of value on each individual person's life, not just who they are, what they're about, and what they've done. This kind of symbolism that's prevalent through a lot of sub-characters later in the series is a big reason why I hold Monster to be in my top 3 anime. Not only is the plot and mystery engrossing, but it also manages to display various slice-of-life situations on the side simultaneously.
If I were in Tenma's position I'd be thinking about potential merit in a young child over the merit of an already-established adult. Not to mention the mayor was a politician, whom I find most of to be dubious in nature anyway and probably a little less worth saving, especially if he turned out be politically and socially corrupt as a lot of them turn out to be. Maybe Tenma just felt it was the right thing to do: to save a life with a lot of experiences left ahead of it as opposed to one that was already at the middle of its path? |
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