Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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The problem with not sharing info, even though spoilers will ruin the series, is that I still don't have any concrete action of Keiichi's to back him up as heroic.
I look for episode summaries of Higurashi season two, since I am told Keiichi does nothing of high merit in season one and I get this: Episode summaries, (vague and mostly spoiler-avoidant) for Higurashi season 2 ^ I read that whole page. You shouldn't. You should instead press "CTRL + F", which opens your browser's search option, and type in "Keiichi". Look down through that mess and see how many of his accomplishments are mentioned. I think I saw that he called the government and talked to some people about confronting the recent murders. I think. That's about it. So okay. I'm not being fair. Summaries are vague. They maybe don't reveal great acts of this character and I shouldn't expect them to. But... Episode summaries, (vague and mostly spoiler-avoidant) for Trigun The summaries make it clear that Vash does some heroic things, even though, in the interest of avoiding spoilers, it doesn't describe them one bit. (1, 4, 5, and 8 are the most blatant.) It's just a huge part of every episode that Vash reaches out to the downtrodden, rescues captives, uncovers corruption, and gets poisoned, shot, crushed, etc., in the process. The word "hero" is mentioned in reference to Vash three times on that page, ironically, as well as the word "rescue." It's so completely who he is that vague info-bites can get it across. Maybe it's still not a fair way to try and measure accomplishments, but I started with season two of this show and couldn't find much on Keiichi even then. Despite having seen Trigun, I tried to pretend I hadn't and the summaries just made it obvious that he's a selfless, golden heroic guy in a hard place from the very top. You know, both of these characters have many different people trying to kill them at any given time and have to endure the trauma of watching good people die all around them, but I infinitely prefer Vash's reaction. To think about it one way: Keiichi is trying to stop the murders around him for many reasons, but part of it is his need to save himself from being killed too, right? He may be saving others, but he's also trying to escape some nasty imminent death (3 or 4 times). By contrast, Vash tries to stop the murders all around him for many reasons, but his life is not endangered by mankind's destruction at all. By Knives' cold logic, he would benefit from it. Mankind hates him, and if he joined in destroying them, he and Knives could fill the new planet with Plants and rule over it in peace. His choice to get involved is the factor that endangers his life. On a side note, I agree that Shu is going to be VERY hard to beat, but he has one BIG flaw. (One that Vash shares, actually,) and that's naiive idealism. Honestly, for as much as he does, and as finals-worthy as he is, many of his decisions harm more than they help in his unwillingness to make concessions for his beliefs. It sounds terrible to say that choosing the lesser of two evils is better than holier-than-thou inaction, but it's true. Shu and Vash both get people killed because, both being "children" in their reasoning, they let the bad guys off much too easy. It's a small weakness because it does imply strength of character, but I still think it's a weakness because sometimes the good guys have to get their hands dirty, and characters who are unwilling to do that end up causing greater harm. I don't know that Keiichi has that flaw, as I haven't seen Higurashi because of the small-child-gore. (I might eventually, but only because I've heard it's a smart brain-bender, and only when I find out a logical conclusion has aired...don't want to get tied up in something that doesn't end or ends stupidly.) I did read a lot of episode summaries, though, and he spends a long time being confused and scared and a good candidate for the "horror movie victim" before any information about what the heck is going on in the plot comes to light. I have no doubt that Keiichi has his great heroic moments, but it just takes him so long to get there. You have to wait until season two to see much out of him. (I understand there is a "question-answer" format to the episode runs, and that may affect things, but still...) I think the fact that he was one of the most voted against characters (who still made it through) during nomination should probably be mentioned, which means he can't be such a valiant figure as some people think. I mean...
I understand he's under the influence of spoiler[a virus of some kind that induces madness], but really? He spends the first 10 or so episodes of the show learning about the dark history of the town and being threatened and scared by his cute friends, some of whom die to return later, and then he spoiler[beats one guy to death with a bat] and spends a few more episodes trying to convince himself he's not crazy. Then we get...
I don't care if he's Mother Teresa in season two, the road there is a lot of shockjocking hyperviolence, with Keiichi clutching the phone and shaking in a corner. I give him his dues for his season two bravery, (which has yet to be given any examples of on this board, and google-fu reveals next to nothing,) but...I still can't see this guy standing up to Vash. I don't know that popularity of Trigun can be blamed for votes, either, Higurashi is also wildly popular. Side note: can someone explain what this means?
Is that petty schoolyard blackmail? Not to mention that I find it silly there's a baseball episode in the middle of all the Grindhouse antics, but seriously, what did he do? Sounds immature to me... EDIT: For fun, using another incredibly flawed method of comparing merits, I typed "higurashi keiichi hero" into Google, followed by "trigun vash hero." I don't need to tell you the results, just do it if you care, and besides, it is a useless method for actually comparing deeds, but I did find THIS a gem. (Scroll to the last picture on the page and read the "hero" caption.) Wow. 
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Steel Angel
 Posts: 274 Location: Texas |
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@JesuOtaku,
I realize I had to be vague to some extent. The spoilers that i could give, it could literally ruin the show if you choose to see it later. It's like what would happen if I told you even a little bit about the ending of Seven. If I said anything about the ending of that show it would be ruined (one of the better twist movies out there). Thats the type of show When They Cry is. Which honestly can hurt its re-watch value, but if you want i can PM you specific spoilers. Also keep in mind its no surprise google doesn't offer a lot for the second season, it hasn't been licensed yet in the US. Thus is predominantly found on Japanese speaking sites. Those who have seen it, have either seen the RAW, or Fansubbed version. Until Funimation licenses it (hint hint) many will not know the depth of the characters or even close to the full story. I'd disagree with Keiichi only trying to save himself, in fact in several arcs he proves just the opposite, and in When They Cry fashion, sometimes to the extream.
And a big one it is, in fact untill some of the last few episodes of Season 1, you really have no idea whats going on, people coming back to life after a gruesome death, generally isnt common in Anime. It takes a while for that to be explained. While many may have issue with the writing/production of the series, this topic is for the acts of heroism, and something that takes a long time in a series to be explained shouldnt dissuade the props the character should be given. As to the ending of When They Cry, i think those of us who have seen it, would agree it ended fairly well (eg: good) by most standards. At this point, I still think Vash will win, but thats because he's the main character of the respective series, where as Keiichi is not. Granted he's not some side show character either. As to Keiichi Vs Shu, and having that negative vibe of being too naive or overly idealistic? No, I'd say thats not a flaw he shares with them. Edit* Adding one spoiler, I will try to keep it generic... read at your own risk: spoiler[ Season 1's arcs are the different paths that have happened in an endlessly repeating world, that has gone on for hundreds of years.] Meant to answer your question regarding the bat too. Lets just say he was doing it to save someone in the series, maybe the wrong method, but it was not the only way he tries or does things. (Granted, you would have to know the spoiler section to fully understand this.) It shows a realistic premise a teenager may face, kill to save a friend, even if you become the one thing you dont want to be: a murderer. The show tries very hard to show these emotions and feelings of frustration Keiichi goes through as he tries to deal with the situation in that arc. |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Well, you could, but the point is that you can't post them as arguments in the thread itself...honestly, spoilers being spoilers, I would post them anyway and just write "Series-ruining spoiler" in front of the already tagged description. If people don't want to read it, that makes sense, but I also know plenty of people who don't particularly care and just want evidence to go for one character over the other.
Oh no, I had no trouble whatsoever finding information about the second season, down to minute plot details and rants about the continuity, etc. I meant that I couldn't find much in the way of Keiichi's heroic accomplishments. I mean, I kind of could, but maybe the fact that he isn't the lead character has something to do with it. (Who is the lead? Shion? Nobody?)
I never said that he's only trying to save himself, not at all. I just said that his efforts to solve the mystery of the town and stop the murders is largely motivated, by, understandably, not wanting to get killed. That not un-heroic by any means, he's still doing a hard thing, but it's less valiant than Vash's corollary: Working to save humanity when not doing so would be better for him, and trying to defend all these people who hate him just adds to the nasty scar count on his chest. (He actually has bolts holding some of his joints together, mainly on his spine. Ew.)
I wasn't aware it had ended. Isn't there yet a third season or OVA floating about? Oh well, I must be mistaken.
Right. I got the feeling that wasn't the case. Keiichi seems willing to use...questionable methods...to solve his problems.
Case in point:
Oh, I was aware of that spoiler before I knew ANYTHING else about the series!  Really, that's a secret? Along with a description of one person's gory demise, it was the first thing my friend ever told me about the series, and I was never aware that it was supposed to be a surprise! Thanks for letting me know! Now I won't blurt that to anyone else on accident!
As for the second part, that's very interesting and complex, but it's not heroic or excusable. Like Wolfwood, for instance, is actually more popular than Vash, and in many ways more fascinating because of the "realism" and the moral dilemma. But he's about ten times less heroic, less and less so with each episode until he spoiler[gives his life to redeem himself,] and that momentous scene is the only reason he's in this tourney, I think. In Keiichi's case, actually, if spoiler[the virus didn't literally FORCE him to do it,] I would say that mortifying act alone completely eliminates him from the competition, not to mention any other issues he might have. But if I understand correctly, it really is spoiler[the "crazy strain" causing that little wack-out and his few others.] Last edited by JacobC on Sun May 03, 2009 9:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Steel Angel
Posts: 274 Location: Texas |
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It does end, but other Arcs are still being done through OAV's if i remember right. I'd comment about your last, but it would probably come off as rather rude, and id rather not be like that, as there is no need. ***Editing, adding some massive spoilers: As to "Who is the lead? Shion? Nobody?" The least likely, and isn't found out until late in season 2. I'll spoiler it, spoiler[ the little girl, Rika Furude, as she is the one caught in the endless loop of repeating time, of which you see the various paths in Season 1. Rika is the queen and the cause of the virus that causes anyone and all the people to go ape in the series. The story goes it was due to aliens landing and causing a problem to the indigenous creatures where there craft landed, and the created a vaccine of sorts. "So the story goes", when told by the town elder... This had the side effect of causing the people to go mad when away from the "queen" for too long, and thus why the religion of the town was to keep outsiders away and people from the town to stay there at all costs. To keep the virus from spreading. It also has the side effect of killing all the towns people should the queen ever die for any reason. Bottom line all in the town are effected with the virus, and are prone to out bursts of SEVERE violence if under high stress or other mental strains, thats what the virus does. (Like when he tries to protect the girl from her uncle but gets blocked no matter what he tries, the virus finally gets the better of him in the one arc.) A no win situation, and the virus can win over the persons character. Keichie saves several towns people, in many of the various repeating arcs he even sacrifices himself so that others would not be hurt. He purposely lets himself get beaten (even by crazed friends under influence, many times, and even being tortured asks that only his friends be "let go". I'm not talking about a gun to the head, I'm talking torture you'd see the "ways of making people talk" type of torture. And he goes through this torture (similar to Shu) and still claims that he will freely give his live for his friends sake. This happens more then once. He saves a girl from being severely beaten repeatedly by her uncle in a latter arc (the good arc, not the past arc where he went crazy from the virus). He challenges the "leader of the town" to have the "damn" feud stopped, that people related to those, but those that were not involved with the damn project to be left alone, and to stop the persecution by the entire town, just because they may be related to "traitors of the town", that are now dead. He changes the entire towns perception of right and wrong. He stops the persecution of the innocent, including his friend Rika (the queen). *Note*By damn, i mean water damn, like hydro. In latter arcs he "fights fate" and refuses to give into the virus, and wants all the "killing to stop!" By fighting fate and the endless loop of destiny he changes the towns very lives, as well as his friends. ] There's more, but sadly my shift at work is almost up. |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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THAT'S more like it! Now I can finally see where you're coming from.
It sounds to me like Keiichi and Vash are actually kindred spirits, seeing as they do a lot of the same things and seem to care about (and for) people in the same way, by directing injury upon themselves in order to change people's minds about how they live. I'll concede then, that Keiichi has many valid qualities as a heroic figure, and this is actually a match that deserves being contested somewhat. But I still don't think he's quite the hero Vash is...and now I have to back that up. Okay. -.-' For as much as Vash has been called an inactive hero, it's more accurate to say that he's a VERY active hero who meanders a lot. He has to constantly hit the road and randomly town-hop because there are dozens of people who want to kill him and will use innocent people in any city to do it. But no matter where he goes, he makes it his mission to uproot corruption and get those who have lost hope back on their feet. This is the plot, actually, of all the comedy episodes involving human villains in the first half. Vash absolutely can not go anywhere without trying to help anyone, no matter how good or bad they are, or how far gone into depression or wickedness. (His aim is exceptional, but the one time he's caught off guard and hits an enemy in a potentially vital spot, he drops everything and tends to their wound...while his own side gushes blood.) That's just before more horrifying evil rears its head in the more tragic last half. (There were two Trigun villains in the Most Evil contest, both went a few rounds, and it's very hard to say which was worse.) Keiichi is hero-ized by being thrust into a situation where his life is threatened as well as the lives of all the townspeople around him (often at the hands of his "friends.") Vash, however, has brought adversity down on himself because he emphasizes standards, values, and respect for human life in a world where people have devalued those things to the degree that chaplains are only considered useful for funerals and everyone always carries a gun, even kids and housewives. He doesn't have to be faced with adversity to show off his courage, his courage actually causes him adversity. In order to set an example for the trigger-happy populace all around him, Vash vows to further peace by helping everyone he meets and never taking a life. If need be, he lets himself get shot, dismembered, crushed, etc. However, he refuses to kill even the meanest of men, and while he is initially mocked for it, several criminals turn their lives around because he gave them another chance. Maybe it's "foolish," but it's very heroic and merciful. This is only enhanced by Vash's "with great power comes great responsibility" problem. If he wanted to, he could kill any assassin with the bat of an eyelash. After all, he can level entire cities in less than a minute. Obviously this is not a temptation for him, but taking the lives of wicked men is, and yet he doesn't succumb to that temptation even in the most dire situations. His choice to do this, again, changes many peoples' lives, so much so that when he does spoiler[finally break and kill Legato, some of those people are there to save him in return, from both loneliness, depression, insanity, and a nasty lynch mob.] This is especially obvious in the montage at the end of the Augusta episode. It's a two or three minute scene where several people talk about an incident involving Vash and how wicked and horrible he appears to be. Vash is innocent, but it's a long story. The point is, this voiceover is played over a series of scenes showing specific characters all across the world overhearing the news. All of them, and there are easily ten or more, were completely changed for the better by what Vash did for them, and many are shown currently living better lives. (Among them are murderers, thieves, a few people saved from the destruction of vengeance, self-destructive alcoholics, runaways, victims of corrupt government, the whole gambit of societal nothings who have made something of themselves.) They all hear the news and react with disgust, but don't say anything. So Vash continues to be hated and badmouthed despite being only a force of good for a large number of people that it takes a few minutes to show. Really, I think the best thing that can be said about Vash is that the whole world hates him, has always hated him starting with the crew of SEEDS, (save for Rem and Joey) and he wants to save it anyway. As he phrases it to Knives, "They're still alive, still fighting! They deserve a chance!" Speaking of Knives, his standards separate him from his brother who, curiously, does NOT hate Vash, but loves and feels betrayed by him, a curious position for the hero to be in with the villain. In fact, the only spoiler[man he wants to kill is Knives himself, a desire he can't reconcile with his morals until he gets his demons out in the open with Meryl and she gives him the strength to forgive his brother, the most evil creature on the planet, and even give him a second chance.] |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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With a bit less than 24 hours left, three of the eight matches are still decidedly in play.
Astro Boy only barely leads Touma 14-12 in B-19, where momentum seems to be shifting in favor of the latter. Shurei has a slightly bigger - but by no means comfortable - 15-11 lead over Kurenai in B-21. That margin has been pretty steady. Vash now only leads Keiichi and Shannon 12-9-4 in B-24, with momentum in Keiichi's favor. Makes one wonder what the voting would look like here without Shannon in the mix. . . |
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Aylinn
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Actually, his life is threatened by his friends only in Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen and Tsumihoroboshi-hen. His life was not threatened (at least not by his friends) in Minagoroshi-hen and Matsuribayashi-hen. Of course, there is still the massacre. Keiichi, however, has no knowledge about it spoiler[until Matsuribayashi-hen (If I remember correctly). ] |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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*counts on fingers* Three out of five is often, ain't it? 
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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When it comes to "life-threatening", and "at the hands of friends" at that, I'd say that one out of five is more than often enough... Regardless, wouldn't you agree that there has been enough said on the topic of Keiichi vs. Vash? I think everybody has a clear picture of where the two stand, and that they are both more than sufficiently heroic. - abunai |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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You're missing someone there. Both of the other vote counts total to 26, that one is 25. Also, I'm counting 15-11 for Astro Boy vs Tohma. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Okay, correction: Vash is only up 12-10-4 over Keiichi and Shannon, respectively. The previously-quoted 14-12 margin for Astro over Touma is right, however. (I think you missed a vote change, Dorcas.) Less than four hours now left. Will Vash, Shurei, and Astro hold their narrow leads or will there be a last-minute upset? |
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murph76
 Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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Group B-17
Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist vs. Natsume Takashi, Natsume Yūjin-Chō Voting for Ed. Group B-18 Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Nicholas Wolfwood, Trigun Voting for Eikichi Onizuka. Group B-19 Astro Boy, Astro Boy (Note: link is for original 1963 version) vs. Touma Kamijo, A Certain Magical Index (aka To Aru Majutsu no Index) Voting for Astro Boy. Group B-20 Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Naruto Uzumaki, Naruto Voting for Balsa. Tough lady, excellent fighter. Group B-21 Kurenai Shinkurou, Kurenai vs. Shurei Kou/Hong, The Story of Saiunkoku Voting for Kurenai. He's the character I'm more familiar with. Group B-22 Noriko Takaya, Gunbuster vs. Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena Voting for Noriko. Was willing spoiler[to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect the planet, and returned centuries later to a world that is probably very different from when she left.] Group B-23 Roger Smith, The Big O vs. Tohru Honda, Fruits Basket vs. Taichi Keaton, Master Keaton Voting for Keaton. Have no preference on any of these. Group B-24 Shannon Casull, Scrapped Princess vs. Keiichi Maebara, When They Cry vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun[/quote] Voting for Vash. Vash will shoot you and tend your wounds if they're too serious. Keiichi wants his friends to survive, but is not above helping to hide a body if it threatens the core group. Vash wants everyone to live; therefore, he gets my vote. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 2 Group B is now closed.
Results can be found here. Despite some late surges, Touma could not ultimately catch up to Astro Boy, nor could Kurenai best Shurei, and in the end Keiichi fell just a bit short of knocking off Vash - again, one has to wonder if Shannon also being around didn't cost him those last few crucial votes. All of the close-call victors face intensely difficult competition next round, but for now at least they can rest easy. Now that two Groups are in the bag, keep in mind that ccdx and me are on the lookout for recommendations for scenes that will show the winners in most heroic form. (I've got Shurei covered, but we'll need recommendations for the others.) If you want your favorite character to have the strongest possible scene representing him/her when the clips start airing next round then you have to toss out some recommendations! See this post on how to make a recommendation and what's required for it. Next round is ready to go and will be up as soon as I can get the results posted. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 2 Group C is now closed.
Time to sort the rest of the chaff out in Group C and start eliminating mid-level contenders. I expect a couple of blow-outs, but more of these matches could end up being competitive than in the last round. Group C-17 Gohan, Dragonball Z vs. Nausicaa, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind Winner: Nausicaa Total: 24-3 Group C-18 Pazu, Castle in the Sky vs. Ichigo Kurasaki, Bleach Winner: Ichigo Total: 20-7 Group C-19 Ginji Amano, Getbackers vs. Kurau Amami, Kurau Phantom Memory Winner: Kurau Total: 24-3 Group C-20 Yang Wen Li, The Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Lady Oscar, The Rose of Versailles Winner: Lady Oscar Total: 14-13 Group C-21 Yugo Beppu, Yugo The Negotiator vs. Ai Tanabe, Planetes Winner: Ai Tanabe Total: 21-6 Group C-22 Franz D’Epinay, Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo vs. Monkey D. Luffy, One Piece Winner: Luffy Total: 20-7 Group C-23 Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Tatsumi Saiga, Speed Grapher Winner: Duck/Tutu Total: 25-2 Group C-24 D, Vampire Hunter D vs. Alice L. Malvin, Pumpkin Scissors Winner: Alice Total: 21-6 Last edited by Key on Mon May 11, 2009 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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Why am I still up?
C-17: Gohan for picking up the slack for daddy! have I mentioned how incredibly peeved I will be next round if...y'know, Miyazaki vs Miyazaki comes to be? C-18: Ichigo Kurosaki bit stupid, but heroic nontheless. no, it's actually cus he's up against a Miyazaki character and I don't like Miyazaki. But I don't feel bad voting for Ichigo either. C-19: Kurau seen the series, open to arguments C-20: Yang Wen Li coin toss, this isn't the clever tourney anymore! open to arguments C-21: Ai Tanabe Well her crowning moment of awesome was certainly heroic, but I she has what it takes overall to move on, this round at the very least. C-22: Monkey D Luffy guide, open to arguements C-23: Duck Obvious choice for me, all the good events of the series happen because of her influence. Even given her doomed fate, she gives everything her all to bring about the end of the series. no contest here whatsoever C-24: Alice guide, open to arguments |
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