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Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

And as has been established, the Japanese are more than willing to pay out the behind for their DVDs and toys and other merchandise, so they DO put plenty of money into their favorite hobby.

Oh, I know plently of people who put a lot of money into this hobby, myself included. I think fundamentally Japanese and American fans aren't that different when it comes to expenditure. Fanbase scale is different, that's true, slowly growing, but ultimately I believe that the Japanese just know how to sell anime better. Maybe the R1 industry was only a stepping stone for them, maybe they didn't have plans for the R1 industry to develop their own sustainable anime TV channels and merchandising, who knows. It's just that, well, since I want to put an end to this discussion as quickly as possible, ADV and Geneon investing a lot of money into anime productions, licensees oversaturating the market with loads of crappy titles, rereleases in box set form, and slashing disc prices and their value to appeal to casual anime fans and the mainstream market were really just dumb decisions on the industry's part, and I think posters like yourself give too little credit to such mistakes.

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

And as has been established, the Japanese are more than willing to pay out the behind for their DVDs and toys and other merchandise, so they DO put plenty of money into their favorite hobby.

I'm with crilix on this one. Who is to say that if anime were broadcast on television in the same way in other countries as it is in Japan, fans would have been less willing to pay?

I've harped on Geneon for their dumbassery with overpricing things in the past, so I know that some of the blame for anime's current state of woe is pricing. I'll be honest -- I'd rather pay $60 to have a complete boxed set of six discs than to pay $30 EACH for for the individual DVDs. Why pay so much more when you can have it all for the price of two standard volumes? Thankfully, companies are getting smarter with the pricing. They just need to get smarter with promoting anime and making a case for why people should get the DVDs instead of downloading the fansubs.

Last edited by Daizo on Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total

Zac wrote:

To suggest that authors - even of insanely popular works - should be just happy to even be published and be A-OK with people illegally downloading their insanely popular, published, licensed and merchandised work en masse is ridiculous. That's an incredibly stupid argument to make and I can't believe you're going with that angle to justify your habit.

Ahem.

http://torrentfreak.com/alchemist-author-pirates-own-books-080124/

Also, many people still seem to think that piracy = stealing. This simply isn't the case. Piracy is piracy, stealing is stealing. Piracy makes an exact copy at no cost (or at very, very, minimal cost) without removing the original, while stealing means taking something from another without permission, where the original owner loses it.

It has also been proven in many researches that the piracy of music increases the sales of music. It's pretty logical when you think of it, because people get exposed to more music via piracy and in turn buy more music because they were exposed to it.

Wouldn't the same apply to fansubs and buying DVDs? Someone downloading a fansub does not automatically count as "lost sale", because once again, had he not been able to pirate it, he might have left it unbought. There's no loss in sales if there is no will of purchase either. Had someone bought a full series without checking it out first and found out it was bad would indeed result in more money for the publisher, but on the other hand you would have an unsatisfied customer. With this kind of logic, wouldn't the people who pirate and buy what they like afterwards make them more happy customers, and thus more likely to spend more money on the products in the future as well? Of course there are always the people who won't buy what they like either due to whatever reasons and/or excuses. Currently I belong to them (note that I do buy manga, though, I just don't buy anime besides few anime movies) because like I wrote in my earlier post, I don't feel like spending money for something when the illegal method beats it in every aspects I'd be ready to pay for, in other words convenience, speed and quality. I would like to really support the people who make anime as I really like anime, but as someone with no credit card and living in Europe my options are quite limited.

In order to make fansubs obsolete, the legal alternative would have to beat the convenience, speed and quality that the fansubs offer. That is pretty much the only way to make fansubs obsolete and right now we're still far away from that point.

Thsi topic moves at such a fast clip I am having a hard time keeping up, so sorry for late replies and such (work/sleep gets in my way).

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

Cait: let's go back to the Berne Convention for a sec. Let's say the Pirate Party acts to repeal the Berne signature. If Sweden is no longer a pledged signatory to the treaty, is fansub downloading still illegal according to their terms?

According to they themselves, no, it is not illegal, however, the rest of the world is going to be very upset with Sweden for doing such a thing. There will be global consequences to Sweden taking this action and those consequences would almost certainly result in a limiting of access for Sweden to the very copyright materials they are trying to make more "accessible."

samuelp wrote:

Since nothing is physically removed from anywhere else, only copied, and copyright is nothing more than a legal concept created by souveniegn territories, if you commit an act that may be illegal in one part of the world outside the jurisdiction of that law, it is not a crime.

This is very true, however, international copyright law is, by its nature, designed to be applicable everywhere in the world, because it understands the global nature of intellectual property. A person is not relegated to one place on the planet, even though local law (or more importantly, custom and tradition that fuel local law) still has to be honored.

Quote:

That's why i think a lot of us are trying to show you, Unit Sqrt(12), that your arguments against fansubs using the illegality of them are fundamentally flawed. It is impossible to convince people to stop breaking a law when that law is never, and likely can never, be enforced. It is doubly impossible to stop people from breaking a law that doesn't even exist for them.
The important thing to argue is not that downloading fansubs it illegal, but that it is HARMFUL. THAT is the only thing that matters to the people that do it.

I completely agree with you on this point, but in my position against fansub downloading, I feel as though the law itself exists for a reason: it acknowledges that moral purpose and not just exists as a "technicality."

Quote:

There are 2 ways to get people to stop behaving in a certain way, and ONLY 2 ways:

1. Convince them that what they are doing is morally wrong, or has negative consequences for others.
2. Punish them for that behavior, i.e. give them negative consequences themselves.

If we were all dogs then #2 is the only option, but we aren't. Furthermore direct enforcement of copyright law as it is written might be impossible or have severe side-effects similar to what happened with the RIAA.
So the only option left is #1.

Absolutely and I am glad there are people who understand that. Unfortunately for Unit 03.5-ish and other people arguing on the side of "fansubs are harmful" are having a hard time breaking through that wall of "you are doing something harmful" without justifying it with the legalities of the situation.

But the issue at hand is the fact that this discussion has indeed drifted off-topic every time we have tried to address the issue of whether fansubs are obsolete or not. I think that is not necessarily the correct question to ask, though. Fansubs certainly have a purpose, however that purpose is almost certainly harmful to anime as an industry and the justifications for its continued existence do indeed at the very least, want to "overlook" that fact. This leads to the conclusion that while legal means still exist, illegal ones will continue to as well, regardless of that fact. Do I think fansubs are "obsolete?" Yes and no. They don't "need" to exist anymore, considering the steps being taken by the industry to (finally) correct the technology gap, but on the other hand, many "feelings" think that "too little, too late" is the acceptable response to those efforts.

Fansubs had a time and a place, and that time and place ended 5 years ago when streaming video and faster connection speeds made it viable for any person, with or without the requisite patience (in the old days it took hours to download video and weeks to receive those VHS tapes) to get anime. The problem today is indeed the "lack of patience" and sense of "entitlement" and I think that is where we are going to have to strike, along with an educational program aimed at making people understand the social impact of their actions, if we are ever going to hope to keep the industry alive and flourishing outside the Japanese market.

Last edited by crilix on Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

I'd rather pay $60 to have a complete boxed set of six discs than to pay $30 EACH for for the individual DVDs.

Of course you would, but you come across as a fan who likes to buy A LOT of discs. The problem is there's not a whole lot of you out there. The mainstream isn't interested in anime, casual fans will only buy Naruto and Bleach box sets. While everyone wants cheaper prices, hardcore fans like yourself should be aware that the industry can't properly support itself with these low price points, unless Japan offers them a very good deal - no upfront fees.

Cait wrote:

Unfortunately for Unit 03.5-ish and other people arguing on the side of "fansubs are harmful" are having a hard time breaking through that wall of "you are doing something harmful" without justifying it with the legalities of the situation.

Just curious, what do you mean when you say it's difficult for those of us in the anti-fansub camp to make a compelling argument that links legality and morality together?

I noticed [Shinichi] Watanabe and his anti-fansub statements mentioned a few times...it should be noted that Watanabe's most recent work (Nerima Daikon Brothers) was in fact not fansubbed. Yet apparently the the sales of ADV's R1 release were underwhelming. I won't make the claim that it would've sold better if it had been fansubbed, but NDB's situation suggests that the non-availability of fansubs isn't a sales cure-all.

Zalis116 wrote:

I noticed [Shinichi] Watanabe and his anti-fansub statements mentioned a few times...it should be noted that Watanabe's most recent work (Nerima Daikon Brothers) was in fact not fansubbed. Yet apparently the the sales of ADV's R1 release were underwhelming. I won't make the claim that it would've sold better if it had been fansubbed, but NDB's situation suggests that the non-availability of fansubs isn't a sales cure-all.

Sorry for being confused, Shinichi and Shinichiro are such similar names that I thought it was the Cowboy Bebop man making the statements. Thanks for the correction.

Zalis116 wrote:

I noticed [Shinichi] Watanabe and his anti-fansub statements mentioned a few times...it should be noted that Watanabe's most recent work (Nerima Daikon Brothers) was in fact not fansubbed. Yet apparently the the sales of ADV's R1 release were underwhelming. I won't make the claim that it would've sold better if it had been fansubbed, but NDB's situation suggests that the non-availability of fansubs isn't a sales cure-all.

And the point is... we don't know. Did it sell less because there were no fansubs? I was unaware of it, because I learn about shows via fansub channels. I've never come across it as an R1 because I don't generally read reviews. I suppose if Bamboo or Justin someday recommends it, I'll take a look. On the other hand, maybe it was a crappy show, or badly produced in R1. Who knows, but at least it's solid data and not conjecture. No fansubs =/= lots of R1 sales.

Cait wrote:

I completely agree with you on this point, but in my position against fansub downloading, I feel as though the law itself exists for a reason: it acknowledges that moral purpose and not just exists as a "technicality."

Laws are temporal like language. They change with time. And vary, as in murder. While it will in the U.S. always be illegal, the definition of murder vs. self-defense varies by state in the U.S. Maybe copyright needs to be truly revisited as a concept in the present digital age, as opposed to being hurriedly updated under force by RIAA and MPAA lobbyists to define, add and increase penalties for violation. I believe everyone deserves recompense for their works. I also believe it is an industry's responsibility to address the issue in the marketplace. Hopefully, the marketplace resolution doesn't drive them out of business, but if that's the case, society will again adapt, and maybe the lack of entertainment will cause a shift in viewpoints toward contributing to creators. In the meantime, I support anyone in trying to make the world a more ethical place, one downloader-to-poach at a time...

Cait wrote:

and that time and place ended 5 years ago when streaming video and faster connection speeds made it viable for any person, with or without the requisite patience (in the old days it took hours to download video and weeks to receive those VHS tapes) to get anime.

So did software piracy not present much of a problem until the internet, although by definition software was easy to copy, being digital. However, we would not all be forced to use crappy Windows today if Microsoft hadn't essentially ignored the piracy until they were in a position financially and technologically to effectively combat pirates. It wasn't Microsoft marketing, but pirates that "put Windows on every desktop". There is still Windows piracy, but the controls have made it difficult enough that the average downloader or DVD copier cannot use a pirated copy. There is an answer to fansubs from a legal viewpoint, but it's not through force or even setting a goal to eliminate fansubs altogether. Software piracy continues apace despite all admonishments and force, and has only been somewhat reduced through highly sophisticated technology--which BTW took at least 5 years to work the bugs out of in M$'s case.

Other than technical controls, software also battles piracy with value. Sure, there are apps I could pirate for nothing, but at $40 or $50, I get automatic updates and technical support. In most cases, it's worth the money. Though not the primary reason I buy after downloading, the enhanced video, occasionally the dub, and for sure the extras (where they exist, rarely) all figure into the value for me. I'm not going to keep a low quality, compressed video copy with no dub and no extras over a professionally produced DVD. This is part of the industry's job, to provide better value and to market their products better.

The answer to the question of whether fansubs are still necessary is yes, because many, if not a majority, of downloaders do make purchases based on fansubs that they would not have otherwise. The streaming channels do not offer all anime and do not offer the same level of quality, so fansubs have not been replaced. No morality to it, that's the fact. And currently, fansubs are a part of the anime economy, like it or not. There's no point in saying they are not still necessary, because it could only be true from the R1 viewpoint, which would prefer that all fansubs go away anyway, whether or not that would be a positive or a negative to their bottom line.

This may be talking to myself at this point, but I know we'll all be together again soon....

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

Well, I'm assuming these translations are often done within the space of less than 48 hours, so I don't know if 100% accuracy is always possible. I don't doubt the professionalism of actual translators or their attempts to be accurate, I'm just saying.

Why do you assume that? Scripts are completed for anime episodes normally more than a month in advance. The video itself is often finished a week in advance, and at that point all that's left in timing. Furthermore, translating 1 episode accurately does NOT take very long for a professional. It can easily be done and checked in 24 hours.
I suggest you go to CR and check out some of the totally free streams of TV Tokyo shows like natsume or shugo chara and you tell me how the subs are before you go making claims you have no basis to make.

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

sam p: you've made the argument that trying to convince leeches of the legal implications of what they do is fighting a losing battle. So, then, what do you feel is a better solution? You said the other option is to go after them on the grounds of morality, but the problem is that everyone has a very different set of morals unique to them.

I never said morality, exactly, I said convince them that it is harmful.

The correct way to change people's behavior, and my perfect solution to the fansubbing problem, is this:

Step 1. Provide an alternative that is almost as fast and almost as cheap, and do so on a worldwide basis.
Step 2. Create a notion that by watching anime in this legal manner, you are truly a "part" of the anime's creation. Get people feeling involved with the anime, and have this group then act to convince the people still watching fansubs to join up through peer pressure. Make it "cool" to watch anime in this legal manner.
Step 3: Ignore fansubbing of series that aren't part of this legal framework, but actively send takedown notices to anyone distributing or fansubbing the series that are legally available.

I.e. you have to bait them, and throw in a bit a "exile" feeling to those who refuse to switch.

This is similar to what crunchyroll is trying, but frankly I don't think they're succeeding so well at it. Instead they've created a war between people with memberships and without, and it's more antagonistic than peer pressure.

If you could do this, fansubbing of _popular_ series would die out in a year or two. As for fansubbing of the unstreamed series... who cares Smile

.

People posting on forums aren't going to change ONE THING. That includes you Unit Sqrt(12)

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

Because there is no way to get every anime on TV for free here, yet. This is the key reason as to why R1 companies need to push harder to make sales.

True that.

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

And as has been established, the Japanese are more than willing to pay out the behind for their DVDs and toys and other merchandise, so they DO put plenty of money into their favorite hobby.

And WHY is it that they put out money for their FAVOURITE anime show?
Because the LOVE those shows.
How did they get to LOVE those shows?
.
.
.
Because they SAW the anime on TV or internet for FREE.
That's the TRICK with the FAITHFUL japanese otaku.

They're shelling out hard cash for anime DVDs and merchandise because they saw shows on TV or internet for free and love some of these shows.
Exactly the same what the moderate fansub downloaders claim to do.

The notorious "no buying" leechers are beyond reproach, you won't get them to buy, even if you preach on over the ebils of fansubs.
Best thing to do is to get the current buyers to buy more by giving them a superior product competing with fansubs of the licensed series.
That can be better quality, faster translating, etc.
But one can also attach new things to the legal downloads/streams/DVDs, whether it be digital or tangible, something that is exclusive to the legal product.
For DVDs it's figurines and extras.
For downloads and streams i can see some digital attachment of some sorts be used, or maybe even a coupon for an exclusive prize-reduced or free figurine/book/whatever.
I've heard stuff about porn in pornshops being marketed by having something extra instead of just the regular video stuff, in order to combat the downloading problem.

So instead of whining about the morality of fansubs and the ones who make or download them, let's look at how to effectively make fansubs of licensed anime obsolete for as much people as possible.

Zalis116 wrote:

I noticed [Shinichi] Watanabe and his anti-fansub statements mentioned a few times...it should be noted that Watanabe's most recent work (Nerima Daikon Brothers) was in fact not fansubbed. Yet apparently the the sales of ADV's R1 release were underwhelming. I won't make the claim that it would've sold better if it had been fansubbed, but NDB's situation suggests that the non-availability of fansubs isn't a sales cure-all.

Though that's a great anecdote... In this day and age, if I license a show and no one has fansubbed it... I get extremely nervous about if I'm going to recoup my investment.

I would rather see a dozen groups clamoring to pirate the heck out of it than it not being fansubbed at all.

Not being fansubbed pretty much means it's the absolute bottom of the popularity pile when it comes to newly created anime which is a pretty clear indicator it won't sell.. Sad

-Tofu

Zalis116 wrote:

I noticed [Shinichi] Watanabe and his anti-fansub statements mentioned a few times...it should be noted that Watanabe's most recent work (Nerima Daikon Brothers) was in fact not fansubbed. Yet apparently the the sales of ADV's R1 release were underwhelming. I won't make the claim that it would've sold better if it had been fansubbed, but NDB's situation suggests that the non-availability of fansubs isn't a sales cure-all.

Makes sense, you need pre-viewers to make a buzz about the movie, and not just people in the industry either. Most Hollywood films have tons of pre-screenings just so that people can go around and talk about it somewhat, and usually they're going to be free-tickets. I've been to tons since I worked at a Borders next to a movie theater they always handed them to us. The major difference is that with pre-screenings you see the entire finished product, but even if you have a few episodes for an anime up, it's still not the whole thing.

I'll admit I've watched DVDrips of Doki-Doki School Hours. I think you mentioned before that this one wasn't fansubbed either, I can see why, and I doubt they would have helped in this case.

SongstressCela wrote:

Quote:

Uh, dude, I'm on your side here...

No worries, I was replying to Mohawk. We posted at the same time, I guess. xD

Sorry did you say something luv?

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