Forum - View topicMost Clever/Intelligent Character Tourney Post-Mortem
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Yet again, thanks go out to Dorcas_Aurelia for the template and Minigame.
Group C-29 Lelouche Lamperouge, Code Geass vs. Lupin, Lupin the 3rd franchise Voting For: Lelouch. Reason: Lupin's clip was riddled with holes, and he didn't seem all that smart. Lelouch came up with a plan on the fly to deal with his greatest enemy yet, Mao. He negated Mao's strengths and mercilessly exploited his weaknesses. Lelouch is far better. Possibility of Change: No. Group C-30 Kiichi Goto, Patlabor franchise vs. Johan Liebert, Monster Voting For: Goto. Reason: After watching Johan's clip, all I can say is that I'm mightily disappointed. I had picked him to win the tournament, but I saw barely any intelligence reflected in his eyes; only madness. Goto wasn't good at all, but he had never come across as being a genius anyway. Since Johan displayed no intelligence and Goto displayed some (very subtle) intelligence, my vote goes to Goto. But I'm not happy with these two; perhaps the next round won't be the close-fought match I thought it would be, if you get my drift. Possibility of Change: Yes. But arguments would need to be made as to how Johan can advance when we see nary a trace of any signs of intelligence. If I'm not mistaken, that puts the scores at 11-7 to Lelouch and 11-7 to Johan. A clear trend is being established, but with approximately three or four votes still left to go (not to mention the possibility of vote changes), both matches are still up for grabs. |
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Liviu-
Posts: 44 |
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In case you haven't seen Monster, and it seems to be so after your statement. It's very hard to capture Johan's intelligence in a video because it will always be a spoiler and some of he's tricks can't be captured since they are spread on more episodes. My opinion is Johan should do exactly what you voted but because some people didn't see the anime and quality videos can't be picked I believe he will lose to L, or maybe even to Lelouch next round, very smart characters with videos that can be better captured and they also benifit because they come from more popular shows. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Group C-29
Lelouche Lamperouge, Code Geass vs. Lupin, Lupin the 3rd franchise Voting For: Lelouche Reason: I kind of want to go with Lupin, but Lelouche seems to have made grander accomplishments throught his intellect than Lupin has. Plus, in the clips, I see this round as about a draw, and from last round I favor Lelouche's more. Possibility of Change: Yes (Not much of a case has been made for Lupin, and I'm a bit forgiving in resourcefulness vs braininess) Group C-30 Kiichi Goto, Patlabor franchise vs. Johan Liebert, Monster Voting For: Goto Reason: Well, if people think Goto could have caught Johan, he must be pretty good. Possibility of Change: changed Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18362 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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The same could also be said of Goto; I doubt the number of people currently reading these forums who have seen a substantial amount of Patlabor is even as high as those who have seen Monster, despite the fact that all of the former has long been licensed and released. (In fact, Monster has nearly as many ratings in ANN's Encyclopedia as the entire Patlabor franchise combined.) I don't have time to put together a detailed argument for Goto right now, but I will try to do so over the next couple of days. Even if he doesn't win, though, I am happy to see him at least being competitive against a foe I thought would wipe him out.[/quote] |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Haven't voted for a while. I thought it might be a good idea to take another stab at it.
Group C-29 Lelouche Lamperouge, Code Geass vs. Lupin, Lupin the 3rd franchise Voting For: Lelouch Reason: I never really thought of Lupin as a genius. Goofy would be the first word I would use to describe him. I also agree with the others. Lupin reminds me a bit too much of McGuyver to be considered intelligent enough to progress to the next round this late in the tournament. On the other hand, Lelouch is completely deserving. He is crazy smart. For the most part, I agree with what others have said about him. He should go very far. It's a shame that his unlikable status has caused this vote to be closer than it should be. Group C-30 Kiichi Goto, Patlabor franchise vs. Johan Liebert, Monster Voting For: Johan Reason: Not much of a persuasive case has been made for Goto. I will have to follow the majority and comments on this one. I haven't seen the series and the clip was interesting but not exactly what I would call genius. Despite this, Johan wins. Goto's clip was even more unconvincing. Though he will probably win this match-up, I believe Johan is nearing the end of his run. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I've all but lost interest in this tournament, alas... but I'll give it the old college try and attempt to explain why a vote for Goto is to be preferred over a vote for Johan.
First, Johan is definitely worth a vote. I'm not disputing that. Unlike my strong distaste for the make-believe intelligence of Light Yagami, Johan Liebert is worth respect as a serious plotter and thinker. So why vote for Goto instead? Well, it would be wrong of me to suggest that it is because he is more likeable -- but that is actually part of it. Bear with me, now... Johan is the main villain of his story. Though he is not the protagonist, he is the eponymous character that gives the series its name, and it is quite fair to say that, without him, there would be no tale. Compared with him, Goto is only a supporting character. We see more of the lead characters than we do of him. Yet, when Goto gets screen time, he always steals the show -- and how? He bumbles around, seemingly half-asleep and entirely focussed on his own immediate prosaic circumstances: he eats noodles, he lounges in his office chair, his eyes are seemingly always half-closed. In short, he is very easy to underestimate. And then he solves whatever problem is before him, with an ease that makes it seem almost like a coincidence. It would be easy to dismiss one or two of his solutions as simple luck, but he does it time and time again. That isn't a coincidence, that's supreme talent. He's a lazy genius. He's the Lt. Columbo of anime, hiding a brilliant mind beneath a languorous façade. In Monster, Johan is faced with two foes that approach him from different angles. Lunge is the essentially antisocial and rigid thinker. Tenma is his counterpart, social and flexible. Faced with either of these two, Johan comes out on top. But imagine a matchup with Goto, who has the skills of both Lunge and Tenma, and I believe Johan would meet his match. I doubt that all of these arguments will suffice to push Goto past Johan, but now I've had my say. I'll finish by saying that, of all the bright minds in this tournament, I consider Goto the most well-rounded. Unlike many of the others, he is not a two-dimensional figure (except in the strict sense that he is an animated figure, of course). He's the kind of genius that I consider most compelling and personally worth emulating. - abunai |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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And at this point, it looks like the last of my finals picks is going out the window as well, just like the Major. Unlike the previous two brackets, I haven't seen enough of Code Geass to even want to attempt to make an argument against Lelouche. I imagine gaining nothing from this bracket will just about eliminate my chances of making the Top 3.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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^ Lelouche is hard to argue against unless you're into cheap shots. (Ooh, he has a superpower! That's cheating!
 ) But I feel ya, I got screwed over majorly in the Duos Tournament simply because I didn't know enough of the competitors. My "B bracket" was the most horribly inaccurate thing...yeah.
The only good argument I can make against Lelouche is "Johan is better." LOLZ |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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It could of been much worse. At this point in the Duos Tournament, all of my picks but one had already been eliminated. No wonder I was only a few points above last place! I am just glad that I am doing much better this time. I agree, it really does help when you actually know the characters that are participating the tournament. I was much better prepared for this tournament. Since then, I have seen about twice as many shows and I know about another 100 to 200 shows from reading reviews and friends. Back to the topic, I completely agree with JesuOtaku. Lelouch will likely beat Johan in the next round. Not only is Lelouch's intelligence more multi-dimensional; it is also more clearly shown. As much as I like Johan's character, his madness and evilness overshadows his intelligence. Don't get me wrong Johan is smart. He wouldn't of made it this far if he wasn't, but against Lelouch he is simply outclassed. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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I think also part of the problem was that as I voted in later rounds, my fanboy side got the better of me in some of the matches. It took me nearly five hours to research and get my brackets filled out for the tourney. But as I got towards the later rounds, I couldn't help but think strongly in favor of certain characters to survive to the later rounds, especially in Lupin's case. While I honestly did think the Major would survive to the Finals, wanting to see an anime classic character like Lupin win the whole thing got the better of me 
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Oh? Actually that means we disagree.
See? I'm a round early here, but I took issue with Lelouche's arrogance over actual ability. (Yes, he's brilliant, but we find out very frequently that he's...not...as brilliant as he thought. Oopsie. Johan, by contrast, does not ever overestimate his abilities until, well, he gets "closer" to Tenma. That's very late in the game.) I also took issue with his emotional volatility. (If it weren't for that factor, most of the screw-ups he does make would not have been made. Johan also does not have this problem. The fact that he's an amoral sociopath only points to extreme intelligence, a trait often found in people who have become so brilliant that they're convinced the rules of morality don't apply to them. Gets more done if you're evil, too.) Finally, the biggest trait that Lelouche had going for him was his young age and relative powerlessness, with the exception of the Geass, which he is extremely cautious with. Those are excellent advantages, but, uh, Johan beats him out in BOTH of them. Lelouche is in his mid-teens, Johan begins his crusade at age nine. Lelouche is disgraced royalty under the thumb of oppressive douchebags, but he still has some influence and freedom (as well as a handy costume and Geass) to start getting things done. Johan is a spoiler[self-made] young orphan with a chronic brain injury in a hospital when he escapes and carries out phase 2 of his kicks-and-giggles sick quest...killing spoiler[at least three people in the process, if not more]. So, everything that Lelouche does, Johan does at a younger age with less advantages, just as much ambition, and the cold mind of an extremely brilliant killer. I'm a few rounds early, like I said, but I'll give more specific examples when we return to this bracket. Spoilers or no spoilers. (The consensus is right: Johan is IMPOSSIBLE to describe at all without massive spoilers.) One more thing: if there's another example of this in fiction, please tell me cause it's wicked cool and I've only ever seen it in Johan. Johan is the only psychopath I've ever seen that spoiler[knows he's insane, sees it as a minor setback, and accepts it as a cold trait he can use to his advantage.] That is really strange, and definitely shows multi-layered intelligence and using your brain to its greatest extent. Not many nutjobs can see themselves as others see them and not bother justifying it. |
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velocet
Posts: 240 |
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Group C-29
Lelouche Lamperouge, Code Geass vs. Lupin, Lupin the 3rd franchise Voting For: Lupin Reason: I'm equally unfamiliar with both, and he seems like has more of the kind of intelligence I really enjoy seeing in a character. Group C-30 Kiichi Goto, Patlabor franchise vs. Johan Liebert, Monster Voting For: Goto Reason: I love his attitude and approach - he's just quietly a million miles ahead of everyone. |
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Olliff
Posts: 550 |
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Well, I made the mistake of assuming this was sarcasm when it really wasn't. Isn't it kind of sad when so many people these days use sarcasm that you end up making falsely assuming someone was being sarcastic when they actually weren't? For some reason, I thought the "LOLZ" referred to the absurdity of basing a decision solely on saying "X is better." Your first comment in your post:
also threw me off a bit. It made me assume that you were going to continue to back Lelouch. Putting that aside, I have many issues with your points, but I will address them when the time is appropriate. I do not wish to sidetrack this thread more than I already have. |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Lelouch vs. Lupin
Voting for: Lelouch Reason: too tired to reason. Goto vs. Johan Voting for: Johan and as for Lelouch vs. Johan...as much as I love Lelouch, when it comes to the school of "getting what you want using your head" he should just suck his thumb, borrow C.C.'s giant teddybear-thing, and sit back on the sidelines to watch The Master. (hey, there's nothing wrong with a little prelim excitement) |
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DerekTheRed
 Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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I'm switching my vote from Johan to Goto.
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