Forum - View topicMost Clever/Intelligent Character Tourney Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I'm getting really tired of this kind of reason. As has been said before, Ryoko does a lot more in the series than just "spout technobabble." She also demonstrate "critical thinking" quite thoroughly in many later scenes than this clip, and don't downplay here ability to extrapolate. (Yes, some of you need to look up that word, I think. It is absolutely a demonstration of advanced inductive thinking.) |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Gultra, I think you miscounted on A-26, I'm getting 11-5 in favor of the Major. 10-5, if you don't count teekay's, which came after your post.
Key, if you want more people to vote Ryoko, you may have to go in to a bit more depth about her ability to extrapolate, because the clips available lean in favor of Ayumu; the one of Ryoko only shows her knowledge, not so much her application of it. Given that neither series is massively popular, that is mainly what people are voting based on, I think. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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(In response to Key's latest post)
The trouble is, we value our eyes over all other senses, trust images more than words, and trust the actual original rather than someone's opinion. Which of course means that an entire clip of techno-babble isn't going to impress us as much as a clip where a guy actually does something, and applies his intelligence/cleverness to an end. You can say all you want about how Ryoko gets proactive later on; unfortunately, the clip that I saw does not show that. Although I trust you, I inherently and instinctively trust my eyes more; I can't help it. If you want to convince us that Ryoko does more than spout techno-babble, the fastest way would be to upload her exploits to YouTube and then provide a link to us. The clip would be not part of the official registrar of clips, as you could link to it in wearing the hat of a tournament participant rather than tournament organiser. I certainly would not object. Honestly, and with all due respect; don't give me a promise, give me some evidence. @Dorcas_Aurelia: Eh? If you got 11-5, then you are saying that sixteen people voted at the time Ggultra2764 posted, which means the other three matches have incorrect counts as well (since they add up to fifteen and not sixteen). The fact that you only flagged one match and not the others means you should double-check your own count of A-26. |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Group A-25
L, Death Note vs. Kazundo Gohda, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig Voting For: L. Reason: The choice is still easy at this point. L is masterful. Group A-26 Urumi Kanzaki, Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Motoko Kusanagi, Ghost in the Shell franchise Voting For: Motoko. Reason: I like Urumi, but her prowess is evident for about two episodes, and then we see no more of it. It doesn't matter how smart she is, the application of her intelligence is so limited that there's barely anything left for scrutiny. Group A-27 Ayumu Narumi, Spiral vs. Ryoko Uchida, Noein Voting For: Ayumu Narumi. Reason: I've been reading the voracious arguments back and forth and am still willing to change this vote; I've been avoiding the video clips because apparently they are a bad representation of Ryoko. That said, I'm going with DorcasAurelia's reasoning since he provides a good argument against Ryoko other than the "techno-babble" argument which is being misapplied to Ryoko in thsi case. Group A-28 Shuurei Kou-Hong, Story of Saiunkoku vs. Shikamaru, Naruto Voting For: Shikamaru. Reason: I love Shuurei, but it's time for her to drop out. She's clever and intelligent and often saves the day with her quick thinking, but just as much of her success comes from her hard work and earnestness. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Fixed and clarified. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Hmmm, I tallied the votes up, and I got sixteen votes instead of the fifteen Ggultra2764 got. Of course, since then, two more votes have been cast.
Here's my current tallies: 12 to L, 6 to Gouda. 13 to Motoko, 5 to Urumi. 14 to Ayumu, 4 to Ryoko. 14 to Shikamaru, 4 to Shuurei. Anyone care to provide their own tallies? I mean, it really shouldn't be all that hard to tally as all the votes are clearly represented, and yet somehow Ggultra2764 and I disagree on the number cast, and on how many votes Urumi had received when Ggultra2764 posted. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Yeah, on recount, I got that, too. Apparently I'd missed someone (looks like I missed bonbonsrus; yes I keep track of who voted in my list, but I don't keep track of who individuals voted for).
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velocet
Posts: 240 |
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Group A-25
L, Death Note [ Video Clip ] vs. Kazundo Gouda, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig [ Video Clip ] Argh, a toughie right off the bat. It's a struggle, but I think I have to give L the edge. No, he didn't manipulate people to the scale that Gouda did, but L had no inclination to use his intelligence in that way. I love Gouda as a villain and I wish he could have gone up against some of the weaker candidates left, but my gut wants to vote for L. Group A-26 Urumi Kanzaki, Great Teacher Onizuka [ Video Clip ] vs. Motoko Kusanagi, Ghost in the Shell franchise [ Video Clip ] Although I value practical intelligence much more highly than those who get to show their stuff in more outlandish situations, and although GTO has just jumped up my mental 'to watch' list about 100 places, I haven't been swayed by the clip or comments thus far, so my vote goes to Motoko. Her intelligence manifests itself in a variety of different ways, which is why I've always been impressed by her as a character. She's not just a tactician, she's not just a leader capable of foiling her enemies' plots, she's not just a skilled hacker, she's not just an outstanding policewoman, it's clear that she's also got book smarts to back it all up, and the sharpness to apply it in dire situations. In a lot of ways Motoko is a bit like Aramaki-in-training, in terms of her ability to read situations and formulate appropriate plans. Though I don't see her as being on a par with the Chief just yet, she's certainly been learning at the feet of the master. Group A-27 Ayumu Narumi, Spiral [ Video Clip ] vs. Ryoko Uchida, Noein [ Video Clip ] Ayumu Narumi, because of convincing arguments against Ryoko, but more due to several voters' surprise she's even in the tournament. If there's that level of doubt in some people, I can only doubt also. Group A-28 Shuurei Kou/Hong, The Story of Saiunkoku [ Video Clip ] vs. Shikamaru Nara, Naruto [ Video Clip ] I like the look of the Saiunkoku clip, but I found Shikamaru to be a very impressive character, and deserving of seed status. I'm not a fan of Naruto by any stretch of the imagination, but I was genuinely surprised by the depth of his strategies when he was given the opportunity to present them. |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Group A-25
L, Death Note vs. Kazundo Gohda, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig Voting For: L Reason: L is nigh unbeatable, even though Gouda is a strong competitor. L doesn't have many other attributes besides his brilliant eccentricities and they allow him to tackle an impossible case with flair, so he's hard to vote against, really. Group A-26 Urumi Kanzaki, Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Motoko Kusanagi, Ghost in the Shell franchise Voting For: Motoko Reason: I think the clip for GitS was not very helpful. There was no demonstration of intelligence there, really, but I've seen the rest of the series and know that clips are chosen based on "as early as possible" appearances. That, and I'm watching GTO right now, and Urumi is a smart cookie, but can't compare at all to the major. Group A-27 Ayumu Narumi, Spiral vs. Ryoko Uchida, Noein Voting For: Ayumu Narumi Reason: I don't think the clip for Ryoko was so bad, but she still can't hold a candle to Ayumu. He should just about be a seed, and I think future clips (maybe the one involving the theater bomb) will prove that further. He survives crazy assassination attempts, mindgames, and physical degeneration by applying his wits without batting an eyelash. Got to give him the nod. Group A-28 Shuurei Kou-Hong, Story of Saiunkoku vs. Shikamaru, Naruto Voting For: Shuurei Reason: I don't know. I think these two are evenly matched, honestly. They're in relatively similar positions as underdog-leaders, but as abunai put it, I'll give the vote to Shuurei for chutzpah. She has to work very hard and deal with some pretty stupid people (while not offending them), while Shikamaru's defining trait is being gifted, but not giving a rat's rear. Beyond that, it's just a slight nod to her based on personal tastes. Like the major, though, that clip doesn't help her much. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I have been away since Wednesday, so I haven't had a chance to address this issue, but I'll see if I can hunt down and post a better representative clip later today. (Although honestly I think it's pointless; everyone seems to have made up their mind already, based on the clips, that Ayumi is so utterly superior it's not even worth considering.) And yes, I'm more irritated about how this match-up is going than probably any other match-up in the field so far. I'd like one person - just one - who's seen all of Noein and actually remembers the series to honestly agree beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ryoko doesn't belong in this tournament and/or shouldn't have gotten this far. I doubt you'll find one. EDIT: After doing some more looking, I have to concede defeat on this one. While Ryoko does show her stuff later in the series, it's all in small snippets. Partly because she's only a supporting character, there's no other place, aside from the provided clip, where she's at the forefront of events for more than a minute or so at a time. <sigh> Guess I'll have to focus my efforts on another battle instead, like making sure Horo wins next round. . . Last edited by Key on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I've seen all of Noein, and I don't really disagree that Ryoko belongs in the tournament -- I just don't consider her a strong contender.
So she's losing -- them's the breaks. Earlier, my favourite villain, Sa Sakujun, lose to a character who barely belongs in this tournament. So it goes. This is a tournament, and people make up their own minds, willy-nilly. More willy than nilly, sometimes, but so it goes. - abunai |
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teekay
 Posts: 33 Location: San Diego, California |
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Precisely. For most matchups I'd be happy to change my vote if I'm given convincing, specific examples of a character's abilities. It doesn't even have to be a clip; it could just be a detailed description. But simply claiming that a character displays intelligence elsewhere in the series isn't going to convince anyone. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3966 Location: New York state. |
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Looks like we have clear winners for this bracket as all are pretty one-sided. But like Key, I'm feeling dumbstruck at just how many folks voted Ayumu over Ryoko, just like last round with Char. A military strategist and leader plus a quantum mechanics expert were overwhelmed by a down-to-earth detective? Unbelievable!
So next round, we have two detectives, a ninja proficient with battle tactics and leadership, and a hacker/ computer expert/ second-in-command/ battle tactician? Should be a fun Round 4. 
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group A is now closed.
Official results can be found here. I'm a bit disappointed with the mere 18-vote turn-out, but I will at least partly attribute that to a long holiday weekend here in the States. Ggultra2764 otherwise summed things up pretty well in the previous post, so I feel no additional need to comment. Next group should be up momentarily. Last edited by Key on Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group B is now closed.
As with Group A, we have video clips for all pairings. If you feel the provided video clip is not truly representative of the character, PM me a link to a better choice. Guide: Group B Guide Group B-25 The Count of Monte Cristo, Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo [ Video Clip ] vs. Kyohya Ohtori, Ouran High School Host Club [ Video Clip ] Winner: The Count Total: 16-4 Group B-26 Akio Ohtori, Revolutionary Girl Utena [ Video Clip ] vs. Satsuki Yatoji, X TV [ Video Clip ] Winner: Akio Ohtori Total: 17-3 Group B-27 Drosselmeyer, Princess Tutu [ Video Clip ] vs. Horo the Wise, Spice and Wolf [ Video Clip ] Winner: Horo Total: 15-5 Group B-28 Yoshito Kikuchi, Great Teacher Onizuka [ Video Clip ] vs. Aizen Sousuke, Bleach [ Video Clip ] Winner: Aizen Total: 12-8 Last edited by Key on Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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