Forum - View topicChicks on Anime [2008-09-02]
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Shadowrun20XX
 Posts: 1936 Location: Vegas |
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It's strange why you ladies would debate the Harem genre,but I kept reading.I'm digging this column.
 You can't really look too deep into every harem story.IMO,most are made just to gain a quick buck.No thought,reason or story development.Most nerds just want to see the newest girl,anyway.Harem shows are the quickest way to display ones "wares".Look at Sister Princess,everyone of them are as bland as the next,but nerds love to pick and choose their favorites.
Actually I think of it as Garage kit and PVC fuel myself. |
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Kimiko_0
 Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Hey there! I'm new to this forum. Decided last week to use ANN to keep track of my anime watched/to-watch.
Re: the column/chat's name, I think 'chicks' (together with that logo) seems to imply childlikeness, which probably doesn't help in being taken seriously. It's not a really bad name though. Hi Robin! Good to see you join the discussion. I hope you're settling nicely in your new home. Did you draw the avatars? They're cute 
Oh! My Goddess is one of the anime I'm watching at the moment, so it's interesting to see it discussed here. I didn't know it was considered part of the harem genre. Looking at the definition though it definitely fits. What I like about O!MG is that the male protagonist is not an obnoxious asshole like the heroes of so many action shows. It always irritates me that the writers of such shows make everyone fawn and swoon over such heroes even though they're treating the other characters like dirt. Keiichi is actually a likeable guy. Also good is that most of the cast is female. What's not so good is that they're all fairly one-dimensional because the whole anime revolves around Keiichi and their relationships to him. Would Elfenlied also be considered a harem anime? I mean, there's also one guy and several women. That was also a good series. Nice balance between action and character development. It had a lot more pointless 'fanservice' unfortunately. Still, to me all such series could be improved by removing the guy and making the anime only about the women who would then be free to actually show more talents than making omelettes. ETA: Oh, one more question. Do any of you know of blogs or forums with feminist reviews/discussions of anime? I've been looking for that, but couldn't find any. I haven't been watching anime for very long (almost a year now) or I'd start such a blog myself. |
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Cheliza
 Posts: 2 |
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Good points you mention there.. i really do enjoy this column...
I agree with the tenchi vs. shuffle kind of 'harem' anime comparison, it really reeks of fanservice when there are tons of shallow girls or/and the context itself is shallow. But i bet there are tons of people looking foward for these animes. I gave up on them after watching some. There's no complexity or and spark of genuis in the storyline afterall. And no memorable characters like Ryoko, Belldandy..etc. on top of that when the word 'harem' pops out 'reverse harem' type of animes can also mentioned, maybe in another discussion: i believe animes such as Ouran High School Host Club and Yamato Nadeshico Shinchi Henge cannot be neglected 
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Mevious
Posts: 78 |
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Very interesting discussion. I've heard the same sort of thing from my female friends regarding harem anime. Looking forward to more cool discussions. I want to see one on Belldandy, as I know too many anime-watching females who seem to despise her.
Speaking of Belldandy... Ah! My Goddess isn't harem, it's magical girlfriend. It would be harem if Urd, Skuld, and who ever else were after him, but the manga and anime focuses on the relationship Keiichi and Belldandy. Usually, if another woman is after Keiichi, it's a one-time thing and the woman (Sayoko, Peorth, Hild, etc,.) is just trying to piss Belldandy off. As a male, I enjoy watching some harem every once in a while. It's gets boring very quickly, though, as the male lead has the personality of a plastic box. Key (makers of Kanon, Air, and Clannad) makes some interesting male protagonists, but they're cardboard cutouts of each other. Also, the desperation and subservience of the females can go overboard. The game School Days comes to mind. My favorite harem anime is Tenchi Muyo. I think this is more because it was less about romance and more about competition. Current harem anime have female leads that are head over heels in love with the main male, and their end goal is to spend their lives with the object of their affection. The females in Tenchi are mostly competing with each other just for the sake of competition, really. The goal isn't to attract Tenchi, it's to beat out the other girls. Most harem anime is focused more on the former than the latter, and as a result isn't as much fun.
Knowing how to cook for a guy is attractive. What's attractive about financial independence? Making money is awesome, but what does that do for the guy? Harem anime of all forms, including reverse, is about what the girls or guys can do for the protagonist, in traditional terms. In reverse harems, the males are highly attractive, great with words, and romantic. In harem anime, the girls are sexy, devoted, and good at domestic skills.
Again, what does that do for the protagonist? |
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Kimiko_0
Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Ah, good point about the magical girlfriend genre. I forgot about that. I suppose Elfenlied would sort of fall in between the two genres then.
As for financial independence or other super powers doing nothing for the protagonist, isn't it obvious what that does for the protagonist? I mean, if your girlfriend has a successfull career, you can take it easier and choose a job that doesn't pay as much but is more interesting. Or be a homemaker even. |
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johnjdoe
Posts: 2 |
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It's important to understand that harem animes and bishoujo games are aimed at men. The companies give the guys what they want to see; they pour the money back in. Frankly, watching a show about, say, women competing on the stock market just isn't that fun.
Still, there are some good and bad harem animes out there. Ones like Shuffle, with the "I live to serve you" theme, clearly contrast with more story-based shows like Air. |
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Kyogissun
 Posts: 676 |
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You know, I think for me at least, the attraction in a woman of knowing how to cook isn't really because I believe it to be an actual feminine trait or something...
It's because I find it helpful that I'm not the only one who could cook. I mean, isn't that partially what relationships are about? Two halves coming together to make a whole? Of course, the abilities I'd want in my partner aren't just petty things like that. Japan does have an unpleasantly generic view of gender roles in crap like shuffle! and I wanna say, it's pathetic if anyone at the age range of characters in that series cannot do casual household chores, such as cleaning, cooking, maintaining organization and the like that helps such a thing function properly. I'd be disgusted if I saw EITHER a guy or girl in MY age range of 18-20 who doesn't know how to clean, it's a common trait of a human being, not a girl. What I'd like to see as a change up in the whole 'thing's a girl does as a daily part of the harem anime' is with the more nerdcore junk. I mean really, if I had to say exactly what I'd expect, I'd want that person to enjoy the same hobbies I do. Let's swap the idea of them going to a shooting range together, with building a PC together. Let's swap checking stocks and portfolio's, with checking up orders on amazon.com or something dorky like that. In the field of competition, let's talk gaming competitions... Or trivia contests, whatever works with you guys! Not that I'm saying I'd expect this and only this from my significant other, but I'd put it at a much higher priority over something stupid but essential like knowing how to do household chores. I think maybe this could be the problem of this specific round table but, mind you, I skipped a few words or two so I may have missed something important... But regardless, there's one main point. That point is that the cultural differences between us really impact themselves on anime most of the time... And if there's one show that has the most prominent display of culture, it'd be harem styled shows. But as Mevious said, you're not gonna see much expansion in these harem titles. If you want something AKIN to a harem title, just go watch or read a Key work. The girls aren't swooning over the male lead, it's more like he just tends to be there to help with small dilemna's the female characters have. Hell, this is even more prominent in a title like Air... Mind you, you're watching the anime. And saying the male leads of the various Key games have the personality of a cardboard box is a LITTLE too harsh. I can think of a pretty decent amount of varied differences between Yuuichi, Yukito and Tomoya. And Yuuichi is in fact, probably the most different of the three, being an overly kind and outgoing kind of person who genuinely seeks to provide some help to the other characters, whereas Yukito and Tomoya are both baited, so to speak, into helping, be it Yukito attempting to find something related to that whole 'girl in the sky' story or Tomoya being dragged into helping because of either Kyo or Nagisa. Okay, I've gone off track here. Essentially the point I was making was that I agree with most of the content of this article and found it much easier to respond to, unlike the previous one where I felt like I should just keep my mouth shut, lest my male self say something idiotic and not know it offended. The depiction of harem shows is getting stale and not expanding. It may have a deep backstory thrown in but who cares about grinding through the crap in order to get to that? It's like saying, "Oh, I know this anime sucks, but get to episode 263 and it starts getting good." Yes, I know Shuffle! had a much dramatically lower episode count, but it just kills brain cells. I really could not see it going anywhere in terms of unpredictability. In closing, Bamboo, I appreciate the comment on the Key/Visual Arts titles. Like you said, it may be ridiculous but everyone needs their fix of everything... And Key just happens to be my best source for melodrama. ...In further closing, I saw Robin make a comment about the whole sword dueling harem idea... Isn't that what Bamboo Blade is doing? Or have I misinterpreted that from the first two chapters of the manga? |
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Big Hed
 Posts: 1607 Location: Melbourne, Australia |
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Actually, I think it would be more accurate to pin Elfen Lied as having a love triangle theme. In my opinion, it's neither a harem show nor a magical girlfriend show since a) there's only two girls, one of which has a homicidal borderline personality disorder, b) Yuka is a completely normal girl, and Lucy is...umm...I don't think she really fits the "magical" girl description, let's just say 
Ah...good times, that show was. The only truly harem anime I ever watched was the archetypal Love Hina, and that was almost four years ago. I tried watching Maburaho a couple years ago, and a bit of Girls Bravo a few months back; both times, I realized that they were big mistakes. Actually, I just remembered Fate/Stay-Night. Not strictly harem, but a near fit in terms of the number of girls involved and their feelings for the male lead. Much cooler story, though 
Wait...Clannad, too. I knew I was forgetting something. Aside from Love Hina, that's the one true harem show I've enjoyed -- though sometimes Key is a little heavy on the melodrama. |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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It was interesting to see you guys discuss harem anime. I also have a few harem anime that I enjoy but like most females when I think of the genre as a whole I find it completely awful. You guys said the exact same thing I think every time I watch a harem anime. Why doesn't she have any friends or hobbies or homework at least. Sure lots of girls can cook and clean and like to wear cute clothes so cooking contests or fashion shows are no problem but spending so much time chasing after this generally useless guy. This is probably why I like key's works so much just like many people do. While I sometimes laugh at the over blown drama they tend to be much more well written than most harem anime and they main characters tend to be more appealing to female audiences anyway. I don't know if japan has many more female fans than we do here but it seems they stick to shojo and yaoi and some romance from the male point of view and the rest of the market is for guys so they don't really spend much time doting on harem anime or moe. In america on the other hand the hard core otaku that happen to be female seem to be much more vocal and interested in other genres and have different genres marketed to them so they often see a harem anime and are disturbed by it. Of course it is a cultural thing but from what I can tell the female market in japan is very contained. I might be wrong though . As for the competitions I would just like to see one without a banana eating contest at the end. |
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larinon
 Posts: 992 Location: Midland, TX |
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I think that Fate/Stay Night is what Bamboo was alluding to when she mentioned the quest for US Presidents idea, at least that's what jumped to my mind. Also, I agree it's not strictly harem, maybe not even that close to what we normally call harem. The girls' feelings for Shirou is certainly a component of the show, but it's not the main theme. I liked the open-mindedness displayed in the responses in the article, and I agree with the comparison to other genres of anime, that there are good and bad examples of harem shows. I generally enjoy the genre myself, but at the same time I'm a bit picky as to what I will watch all the way through. Some of my favorites include To Heart and Nagasarete Airantou, so I guess you could say I prefer when the male lead is oblivious instead of wishy-washy, which means I might be projecting. Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu also fits the oblivious male lead category so far. Regardless, my enjoyment of Love Hina may torpedo that idea. The endless fawning of some of the Shuffle girls really got on my nerves, but I still enjoyed the series to a certain extent because the guy actually picks one of the girls and we see the fallout among the others that were rejected. Edit: My other conclusion here is that I really like Yui Horie (To Heart, Nagasarete Airantou, Love Hina). Which is true, but that is correlation and not entirely causation. Also, I came up with an idea for a new ANN poll:
Last edited by larinon on Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Shows like Oh My Goddess and Elfen Lied are harem in the sense that there's one guy surrounded by many girls, but they aren't quite in the same class as shows like Love Hina and Shuffle were there are multiple girls romantically interested in the lead male.
Elfen Lied is something of a subversion of the magical girlfriend genre. That her powers are sci-fi in nature rather than fantastical isn't a particularly important distinction. |
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Twilightmaster
 Posts: 129 |
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One show I'd like to recommend if it ever gets licensed is Clannad. The show actually depicts a realistic, more adaptable male lead, instead of the weakly portrayed usual lead in most harem shows. Besides that, the girls aren't all flaunting themselves around the male character, some are aggressive, some are shy, some aren't interested at all. There's a lot of variety I think makes the show stand out phenomenally more than most in the genre.
And to comment on the girls thoughts for why realistic acts like job and other such duties being preferred instead of cooking and cleaning... I'm sorry, but that seems kinda boring. We don't watch anime for realistic stuff like that, anime is usually based on the stuff that we imagine can't necessarily 'happen' in real life. We like to play more on the idea that it's more of a fantasy, so it's easier for our imaginations to tie into the show. At least, that's my opinion on it. I'd relate more to the quiet, nerdy male characters shown in harem shows, so seeing something more western oriented wouldn't really appeal to me, since it would feel more like it's some other guy instead of myself maybe being in that sort of situation. Just my thoughts on a few things. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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True, but I always found it to be well-earned. But maybe that's just because of who I am. This may not be the most progressive of comments to give, but one of the reasons why what I've seen from Key has had such an effect on me is because of the presented innocence of the characters as they go through periods of grief and distress. They seem so undeserved of their sadness. I cannot easily empathise with highly realistic characters, for the simple fact that their personalities would resemble those of real people around me as well as myself, ergo making them seem too mundane (for want of a better word) for me to harbour especially delicate feelings towards. |
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Cheliza
Posts: 2 |
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I can't believe we actually forgot to mention Love Hina... isn't it one of the cult harem animes of all times.. shame on us -_-'
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tasogarenootome
 Posts: 593 |
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Major improvement this week, ladies. Last week was rather boring, but I truly enjoyed this week and think you all had very interesting viewpoints.
I feel the same - as a female, there are very few harems I enjoyed. I watched Tenchi Muyo at a young age and really enjoyed it; even now that the harem aspect stands out it's still good for a laugh. I also enjoyed Ranma immensely, but that seems to play beyond typical harem since everyone seems to be in pursuit of someone else. It took me awhile to get used to Key's works, but I did truly enjoy CLANNAD because it had enough going on outside of the moe melodrama to keep me interested. I would definitely like to see an article on reverse harems, as I think the principle is similar. I have no problem with bishounen harems, but it's interesting how similar the typical reverse-harem protagonist is to her male-counterpart. She's either the sweetest, kindest, most diligent girl in the world or a total cardboard cut-out. What about having a protagonist who actually gets mad or stressed or cracks a joke once in awhile? |
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