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Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2600
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:11 pm
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Was a little disappointed that Rudy didn't explicitly make the Fitz/Sylphie connection until after he removed the glasses as I thought the author might have been aiming for the romantic notion that "the heart knows/remembers" who "Fitz" really was and the love developed in the old relationship was felt toward the seeming stranger. Well, at least the other shoe dropped finally so we will have to wait to see what happens next (like that Desert Island fantasy scene with Eris in S1E13)
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2-2Distracted
Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:51 pm
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Key wrote: | Bookworm is actually a case of a soul being transferred into an established individual who was comatose/dying (like Parallel World Pharmacy and a few others) rather than a true reincarnation (like MT and Oshi no Ko). |
completely forgot about that...
Key wrote: | For millinea, children who grew up in poor and/or communal living arrangements learned about sex from listening to/watching their parents do it. That may have left them with very earthy senses of humor about sex, but claiming that is the cause of perversity in the sense that's being applied to Rudy would be a stretch. |
...why? Because his family isn't poor nor communal? Paul & Zenith literally spent several doing exactly what you described without any care as to whether or not Rudeus was listening. Not to mention that Paul is a such huge horndog that his inability to keep it in his pants almost killed his marriage. You could easily make this a case of the apple not falling far from the tree for Rudeus, who BTW is a descendant of one of the most slime-ball families ever.
NeverConvex wrote: | Genuinely a well-written episode taken in isolation. It's too bad the Rudy-Sylphie relationship is polluted by so much of the rest of the show; I would have found this episode genuinely very touching, in the absence of the context of the rest of show. The author basically seems to know what growth looks like from the narrow perspective of an adolescent protagonist learning to genuinely care about the people closest to him (although this requires suspending what we know of who Rudy actually is, of course; and, still constantly frames Rudy's sexual assault as hilarious, so it still doesn't "get" all of it). |
Another thing that really puts this episode down is that it took an entire cour for it to happen... in the same season where Horimiya is airing. This arc sucked, no two ways about it, and the best defense I've heard about why elsewhere is that it's all still build-up to something big, which I'm guessing & hoping is the next Turning Point as opposed to... well this being the payoff.
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Snowcat
Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 190
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:06 pm
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Gamen wrote: | I'm not entirely sure what you mean - are you contradicting author fiat? Remember, this is all fiction, and there's no such thing as reincarnation or remembering past lives in real life - the author is free to set the rules. Whether or not you can read in dreams in the real world has no bearing on whether a child in a fantasy world can read in the dreams of her past life. Regardless, at least as far as Effa remembers, there was no reading; |
No, I misunderstood your point. The past life reincarnation aspect is fine but I don't think Myne's mind survived: her memories were wipe out by Urano's memories during the process (she doesn't recognize her family and i don't remind a part in the story where she has access to the original Myne memories). But, she is indeed influenced by her body to be very emotional and childish at time.
Ferdinand explained that she has died as a child (maybe multiple times) and that's why she has mana clot everywhere in her body that hinder her mana use and her growing.
I think the mind of the original Myne couldn't survive and was destroyed leading to the "reincarnation" that gave the relay to Urano memories and personality because they have the same soul. (I wasn't aware of the soul aspect, thanks for the link)
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5909
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:44 pm
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Key wrote: | Very interesting, and it does explain some things that I had wondered about. But also definitely beyond the scope of what's been animated so far.
But let's keep any further discussion about Bookworm to a minimum (except as it relates to MT), as that is straying off-topic. |
Sorry Key, need to finish this one off.
The light novel is quite clear that the original Myne died. Urano heard the original Myne's voice as she died (anime too). Later on, as discussed by Myne and Ferdinand, Myne stated that her body had died before, when Ferdinand was talking about the mana clumps in Myne's body. Mana clumps that are formed upon death.
Perhaps there is some torturous explanation that makes both statements true at the same time,...
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Top Gun
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4727
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:50 pm
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jmckenna15 wrote: | As for his romantic pursuits, I'm not too concerned by those. This occurs in a number of works mainly because it might be strange for somebody in the reincarnated world not to act like somebody of that age just because they may have had a full life in the past world. Singling out MT for particular criticism is just a bit unfair in that regard, and honestly I think it still works out in its favor here. It's why I don't agree with the whole "pedophile" angle a few people often raise, because I don't see any real alternative for this kind of story where somebody is given a full second-chance of life -- either in MT or other works. |
I like how this statement perhaps unintentionally hits the nail on the head about isekai stories. Maybe if authors stopped using this silly hackneyed reincarnation trope that generates these inherently problematic elements (or to put a finer point on it, stopped using it without so much as thinking about said problematic elements), then they wouldn't have to worry about being criticized over it in the first place.
Last edited by Top Gun on Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2456
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:51 pm
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Hiroki not Takuya wrote: | Was a little disappointed that Rudy didn't explicitly make the Fitz/Sylphie connection until after he removed the glasses |
I thought several manga readers earlier in this thread claimed the glasses were, in-universe, some kind of identity obfuscation item, and that this in-universe explanation was excluded from the anime for no apparent reason (probably not really a spoiler for anyone who has kept up with these threads, but paranoia's best with spoilers IMO)? Although even the princess's other bodyguard didn't seem to acknowledge this; this latest episode included him explicitly claiming Fitz must have totally forgotten her if he hadn't figured it out yet, or something to that effect. So... shrugs unknowingly
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Snowcat
Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 190
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:07 pm
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Top Gun wrote: | I like how this statement perhaps unintentionally hits the nail on the head about isekai stories. Maybe if authors stopped using this silly hackneyed reincarnation trope that generates these inherently problematic elements (or to put a finer point on it, stopped using it without so much as thinking about said problematic elements), then they wouldn't have to worry about being criticized over it in the first place. |
I don't think critics have any authority to decide what stories can or cannot be told.
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jmckenna15
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 137
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:09 pm
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Top Gun wrote: | Maybe if authors stopped using this silly hackneyed reincarnation trope that generates these inherently problematic elements (or to put a finer point on it, stopped using it without so much as thinking about said problematic elements), then they wouldn't have to worry about being criticized over it in the first place. |
Of all the silly tropes that come with isekai, I don't think the idea of a full reset on life is necessarily a bad one when done well (MT, World's Finest Assasin, Bookworm etc). Especially when compared to being immediately OP or instantly having a harem without doing anything. Plus it's not even problematic because these characters are doing the things expected of them at their new ages. Baby? Suck on mothers breast. Teenager? Be horny. A fresh start on life means a fresh start and it would be more bizarre if characters didn't act like that. And for all but a few viewers and readers, it's not hard to roll with it either.
It might be a bit tropey, a lot of genres have tropes and lean heavily on them, but it makes for a more believable, real story rather than your everyday isekai power fantasy.
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Top Gun
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4727
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:03 pm
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Snowcat wrote: | I don't think critics have any authority to decide what stories can or cannot be told. |
...seriously, why is it that so many defenders of this series instantly equate "someone is criticizing it" with "someone is saying it should not be allowed to exist"? No one in here has made that claim. Not once. I'm fine with people writing or enjoying whatever crap their hearts desire, and I will absolutely defend its right to exist. But at the same time everyone else has the exact same right to think that it's crap and to explain why they think it's crap.
jmckenna15 wrote: | Of all the silly tropes that come with isekai, I don't think the idea of a full reset on life is necessarily a bad one when done well (MT, World's Finest Assasin, Bookworm etc). Especially when compared to being immediately OP or instantly having a harem without doing anything. Plus it's not even problematic because these characters are doing the things expected of them at their new ages. Baby? Suck on mothers breast. Teenager? Be horny. A fresh start on life means a fresh start and it would be more bizarre if characters didn't act like that. And for all but a few viewers and readers, it's not hard to roll with it either.
It might be a bit tropey, a lot of genres have tropes and lean heavily on them, but it makes for a more believable, real story rather than your everyday isekai power fantasy. |
I mean I would personally make the argument that any variant of isekai setup, at least since that term came into popular use, is much more often than not a massive narrative crutch, and with only a few exceptions is put there because the authors aren't talented enough to do something resembling actual world-building. And maybe MT actually is one of those rare exceptions, but I'll never find out for myself because I'm not wading through all of the gross shit to find out. Because yes, it is still incredibly problematic when the "baby" doing these actions is actually a 30+-year-old man whose entire inner narrative is in that adult man's voice. Again, as others have noted, this is a problem that didn't need to exist in a work like this. The author chose to create it, either deliberately (which is disgusting) or by virtue of not thinking about the consequences of his world setup (which is just incompetence).
Last edited by Top Gun on Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gamen
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 253
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:34 pm
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TarsTarkas wrote: | Perhaps there is some torturous explanation that makes both statements true at the same time,... |
I don't think it's particularly tortured: Both Bookworm and Mushoku Tensei are written in the first person. There's no omniscient narrator. We know what Myne and Rudy think happened... but both are unreliable narrators. They can be wrong, making assumptions on incomplete or misinterpreted information, or speak imprecisely. Myne was only on the brink of death multiple times, and that's all it takes. And @Snowcat, she has Myne's memories; she mentions it in the 2nd volume, in the chapter titled "Lutz's Myne"; as far as I know the anime skips the details in episode 8 (like they do).
Not that it's important whether or not Myne guessed the metaphysics of her circumstances right; it doesn't change who she identifies as. Or rather, I don't think it's supposed to be important; that's why it's left unclear at best, misleading at worst. (Despite that it rustles my jimmies to see people make the mistake... )
Which is not to say Rudeus is at all comparable to Myne in that sense; he was simply born with his memories, without even a bump on the head (a la Bakarina), much less repeated near-fatal fevers that would prompt him at five years old to invent a new personality that would end up consuming him, based on the memories of the past life he saw in his dreams, in a desperate attempt find release from the agony of his short and painful life. In his case, that he had his memories - and self-awareness - from birth serves as good evidence that Rudy is right that he's his previous life's continuation. Though arguably he actually is trying to think of himself as someone else, as Rudeus Greyrat, not as wheover-he-was - that's why he's always a bit traumatized every time he meets Hitogami and finds himself back in his old skin.
Top Gun wrote: | Because yes, it is still incredibly problematic when the "baby" doing these actions is actually a 30+-year-old man whose entire inner narrative is in that adult man's voice. |
Huh. Y'know, how many of my fellow book readers imagined Rudy's narrative being in his previous life's voice? I didn't, and when the anime came out I was merely amused by him having Kyon for his "inside" voice and thought it a clever way to separate his speech from his thoughts, and didn't think about it any deeper than that.
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Snowcat
Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 190
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:44 pm
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Top Gun wrote: | ...seriously, why is it that so many defenders of this series instantly equate "someone is criticizing it" with "someone is saying it should not be allowed to exist." No one in here has made that claim. Not once. I'm fine with people writing or enjoying whatever crap their hearts desire, and I will absolutely defend its right to exist. But at the same time everyone else has the exact same right to think that it's crap and to explain why they think it's crap.
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I misunderstood, then. Your message seemed to imply that authors have to worry about the issues some critics have with their work or should preemptively self-censor. In my opinion, they should only ignore them. Lots of people have crap opinions, too.
In this topic about MT, a kind of famous "Tensei Isekai", considered by some people as genre-defining, while others have reached the conclusion that it would be better (less problematic) without the "Tensei", or even the "Isekai" aspect. I have some doubts about that.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2456
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:57 pm
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Why wouldn't you imagine the inner voice carrying over? It's the same dude, with the same personality and memories, and even the same sexual inclinations, even as an infant. That's the entire point of reincarnation as a narrative device.
Like: what is precise the difference that would cause you to expect them to be different people internally, aside from the gradual passage of time and accumulation of new experiences, which happens for, uh, all people? Does he get issued a 'Totally A New Person' ID card by the Man God when he enters the new world, and that's what being a new person means, now?
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T3rmidor
Joined: 14 Aug 2023
Posts: 66
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:41 am
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Key wrote: | I disagree. While some of the content in Oshi no Ko could have worked just fine in a straight-up idol series, it would have been a more bland and ordinary take on it. Aqua's character would have to be significantly redesigned, as his goals, passions, and capabilities wouldn't make as much sense without the reincarnation angle, and Ruby would lose much of her emotional foundation. It would also kill some thematic elements that come up later in what's been animated so far. (This involves a lot of spoilers, so I won't get into explaining that here.)
I'm also going to disagree with other comments that MT didn't need to be an isekai series. This is definitely true for some other isekai, but Rudy's identity in his previous world is too much the foundation for who he is (and to an extent what he can do) here. You'd have to do a lot more than just a few small tweaks to make that switch work. |
The difference is that I can see OnK working perfectly without reencarnation while MT is the core of the history. In regards to the first, I think it is not too hard too imagine a similar relationship in regards to their mother without reencarnation; in fact losing their mother at such an early age would imo feel much more impacfull on actual children instead of reincarnated dopplegangers. For MT meanwhile, it would be a completly different story, no question about it.
Regarding Ep 11, I did indeed find in this episode off putting the use of the adult voice for Rudy inner thougths. The episode was alrigth, it honestly felt like it needed even a bit more weigth?
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2-2Distracted
Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:04 am
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hmmm, that Avatar-style reincarnation idea is starting to become a pretty viable one going by the amount of people who really seem to think having this 30+ year old man stick around is absolutely necessary to this story. The very fact that Rudeus' past memories are oh-so important actively shits on the claim that he's a new person, as if the constant monolgues didn't already do that. He's not a new person, he's the same person basically possessing a child and taking over their life.
Again, there are the other options too. Like taking the nanahoshi/ReZero route and just going full "transportation" instead of "problematic reincarnation". We know why the author chose this option and it's becoming quite clear that it has very little to do with plot relevance.
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T3rmidor
Joined: 14 Aug 2023
Posts: 66
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:21 am
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I think there are two things that need to be distinguised, if a would to be writer needs to add reincarnation aspects and if MT can be made without it. For the first I agree with your concerns, I think it has become an overuse trope that could be much better executed, instead of a trampoline for another power fantasy (which mind you, have been always popular). Regarding MT however, the story is already written, so the question is wheter the reencarnation aspect can be removed, which I say no as without it Rudeus actions wouldn't be the same.
I can certainly see a fantasy novel in this setting, but that would be something difference from MT. The essence of it after all is the transformation of an otaku into a "functional" menber of society (and why also the story can be seen as a redemption story). Honestly if the MC of the story didn't partake in abhorrent behaviour with the narrative fully behind him I think wouldn't even be a talking point; it is really in the execution of the narrative where I think most issues lies, rather than an inherent issue with the concepts at work (ie: I think reencarnation can be an interesting point, only that is commonly missused)
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