Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II
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The Anime Binge-Watcher
 Posts: 96 |
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With all due respect, was Rudeus not banishing blizzards and almost solo-ing dragons mere episodes ago? He has more than enough power to smash up any slave tent he comes across and escape with little to no consequences. Which, you know, maybe not the smartest way to go about things either given the chaos that would cause, but Rudeus is not some hapless nobody. He's been established as freakishly powerful to the point that ordinary people can't really measure up. If it was just a matter of whether or not Rudeus was strong enough to take a stand against slavery, slavery would be GONE in this kingdom by now. |
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2-2Distracted
Posts: 148 |
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Wait so Rudeus goes from taking issue with slavery to not caring in the least about it? Did hanging out with Ruijerd mean absolutely nothing then?
Are people sure that this character is written consistently? 
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Blanchimont
 Posts: 3531 Location: Finland |
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Freakishly powerful or not, whether he could or not, he can't just go and and break the law nilly-willy, or upset the public order, especially in a place he has his residence. Been a while I read the volume in question, but if I remember correctly(?), one of the main reasons they chose to go this route and choose Julie, was, as Rudeus himself had learned, had to do with the magic capacity when trained from an early age. So any already old established craftsman wouldn't have sufficed. Zanoba himself didn't have that magic capacity and he couldn't train it anymore, so he had to go about the figures the old-fashioned way. |
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T3rmidor
Posts: 66 |
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I honestly don't find the morality discussion so important, modern characters can be flawed or inmoral from the common held perspective. That the question howver isn't even aknowledge is the issue, as there is a difference between seeing slaves to buying one yourself. Even the acknowledgement of normalization could had been enough.
That being say, another aspect I dislike about slavery in isekais is how sanitised it is. Slave societies, as in civizations were a significant part of the population was enslaved, were very brutal in their treatment of slaves for what I imagine are obvious reasons to everyone. I think when it comes to world building it always benefit to create a realistic feeling, and here we find that slavery is use as a convinient for the author plot device, which is sad considering there are other alternatives. |
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b-dragon
Posts: 486 |
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Yeah, this is where I'm stuck. I don't think this is good character writing, or a natural development. This is Rudeus who traveled with Rujierd, and knows and respects his stance (expecially when it comes to children). Who, if I don't misremember, has acted against slavers before. Who, the narrative constantly reminds us, still strongly remembers his prior life- and not just the traumatic parts, but the parts about the culture too. Who is terribly flawed, but frequently trying to be better. I could buy this character keeping their head down and saying basically "I don't want to make waves/ it's not my problem." But to go buying a slave for a "friend" with a track record of accidentally crushing people to death? Given the series' track record, I have to assume its for more fetish fuel. Again, slavery existing in the fiction is...fine, if well written. But Rudeus' involvement here seems a poorly written involvement in a deplorable practice for the likely purpose of "fanservice". And yeah, I know some want to keep to the idea of "only a slave would be of the right age". This...doesn't work for me. At all. Because they don't keep to their desired age-range anyway. Because for a person waving "Crown Prince" means and status to have no other options seems absurd. Because Rudeus displays absolutely no hang-ups about his involvement. Because the author designed the situation that way in the first place. And it is disappointing. Rudy's conversation with Julie is good. Its a fraught conversation, with a lot of reflection. I'm enjoying "Fritz" having the playful upper hand on Rudy in conversations. There is good stuff here. But oof. Last edited by b-dragon on Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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proper1420
Posts: 32 |
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It isn't anachronistic. I have antislavery Quaker ancestors who lived in a proslavery US state before the US Civil War. With perhaps one exception they evidently weren't politically active enough to feel compelled to leave the state, but neither did they adopt the practice of their broader community by purchasing slaves. |
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tintor2
 Posts: 2010 |
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Just seen a preview. My fears of Raphtalia 2.0 are kinda spoiler[gone since it seems Rudeus is actually taking care of her.]
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freebird1994
Posts: 81 |
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Ok i see this point brought up a bunch in isekai stories with MCs that actually have a lot of power and he's why it usually never makes sense. Have you bothered to play that scenario out in your head in a realistic setting based on what you have seen in that world? Rudeus causes a massive storm and uses his magic to break all their chains and destroy the slave tent. Great...... now what? Do the "former" slaves just disappear like they are NPCs in a video game? I'm pretty sure that world doesn't have a health and human services. How do they go about finding food? Shelter? If they want to return to their homeland, how do they do this with no money? Is Rudus going to give them all the money they need? Speaking of him, what happens with Rudus? There are clearly parts of that world where slavery is a legitimate(if shady and immoral) business. Do you think everyone well hoist him up as some moral superhero, or will he be chased down by the authorities the same way someone would if they destroyed a Wal-Mart? He's going against the status quo. Even in the real world we see that doing that isn't met with universal approval even if it is "correct". |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 673 |
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This kind of response is exactly why it’s such a poor narrative choice, because either the author did an extremely poor job, or actually wants his audience to come away going “well this is why it’s better that they’re slaves.” Which is an abhorrent position. We know where that language comes from, what it dismisses, and why it’s used. The author made that choice just like you chose to use it in your post. |
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Hal14
 Posts: 699 Location: Heart of africa |
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Do not confuse realism with believability. Like someone mentioned before, the depiction of slavery here (like most isekais) is heavily sanitized and fluffed because the end point is to make the reader feel good that the MC treated a slave nicely. You also make it sound like slave revolts and escapes never happend in real life. If a story wants to convincingly show rudy rescue some slaves then it comes down to the authors ability to make it believable. Which the author has done in a previous arc.
Again, Rudy's done this before, though. In a previous arc, one that was referenced just the episode before, he and the rest of dead end defeated some traffickers and returned the kidnapped children to their village. Shockingly, the world did not implode under the weight of this narrative impossibility. And even if he failed and it brought trouble on his head, that all sounds more interesting than what we got which was the typical, pseudo-wholesome, nice slave-owner song and dance. |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 137 |
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That's kind of what I was thinking as well. This could be dealt with without the slavery component -- which by now I can understand the groans from anime fans because it's getting overused in isekais and fantasies with little originality being done to the theme to make it at least somewhat interesting. At least as far as MT is concerned, they are at least shying away from Julie becoming a weird love interest for Rudeus or having it be a "male fantasy" throughline. It makes it a more palatable usage of the theme even if a few people will still have issues with it. To MT's credit -- and as Rich mentioned in his article -- having it become a character building moment for Rudeus gives us at least a chance to see his growth as a person. He's increasingly leaving behind the deviant, pedophilic tendencies of his youth and maturing -- however herky-jerky -- as an individual. This is the show's greatest strength. It's not perfect, he is messy, and he is bound to do more cringe stuff in the future, but that's what separates it from the other power-fantasy isekai we've been cursed with the past 5+ years. All in all, as much as i was concerned by the introduction of slavery in MT, I don't see why this should be a dealbreaker for fans up to this point -- especially given how it began. And there is so much positive the show is doing that it greatly counterbalances it. Short of genuine narrative nonsense or a drop in animation quality, this is one to stick around for the longhaul. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2406 |
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From the start, I think it's fair to say Mushoku Tensei is not for everyone, and I think it's in everyone's best interest to accept that we all have limits, and this is some peoples' limit. When it's great, it's really great. It has a really intuitive, powerful, and interesting character narrative, worldbuilding, and political grounding. And when it does this kind of thing, it's just super frustrating. Slavery in the narrative or as part of this pretty archaic, cruel society with class and race/species divides isn't itself a problem. Mushoku Tensei has handled the topic relatively fine thus far. As a morally grey character, Rudy ignoring the societal issues is none too surprising, and I think adding Rujierd in earlier to check him on that front and not let him get away with ignoring injustice was a great experience for him, too. But as many people here have mentioned, this very particular instance is super hard to just let be. Rudy is himself actively engaging in the slave trade, contradicting his character arc and the story's approach to the topic from earlier arcs, for an extremely menial reason (even if the outcome is needed for the story). The slave they buy is also for a man known explicitely for his cruelty and lack of empathy, as well as a bit of pervertedness (though it's debatable that his pervertedness would apply to real people, it's still not a risk most people would take with a child). It starts out framed as a "date" and while I'm fine with the moment he saved Julie, it does seem like much of the wind is taken out by the circumstances surrounding it. I do have the foresight to know they treat Julie well and that she is not the butt of jokes or the subject of perverted gazes and such, at least while she's a child. Zanoba is surprisingly a good and kind "master", and he treats Julie as an apprentace, not a slave. So if anyone is worried about that, don't be. Nonetheless, she's still a slave, and that's a narrative issue. For those considering dropping the series, I can't emphasize enough that next episode is also going to be a doozy. If you can get through that, great. The story still has plenty more highs to go through, and the story immediately following is one of them. If you can't and feel obligated to drop it, though, don't feel bad about that. There's a lot of great stuff out there, and thankfully, not every isekai does crap like this (might I recommend Re:Zero?). Either way, it's probably not really going to do anyone any good making snarky remarks in the thread toward the show or each other. |
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freebird1994
Posts: 81 |
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I'm not trying to downplay the sentiment of wanting to end slavery in this(and most) story. I'm trying to point out, like you said, it's a narrative plot that many authors use but never resolve or even bother addressing. My point in bringing up the "then what happens" question is this is how almost every commenter address this story beat, by just "yadda yadda yadda"-ing how the MC could end slavery. And I've even read isekai where the MC ends slavery but it's almost always in that "yadda yadda" fashion, where it just happens in a single chapter. It always makes me question why the story even bothered with it in the first place outside of being a way to introduce a new character and give the MC a chance to be the good guy*. I don't like this story beat and in an earlier comment said how this scene could have been far more tolerable for people if julie was just an orphan on the streets or something similar.
ok am I just dog-whistling and not realized it? I'm aware of slave revolts in the real world. I know haiti was literally founded in a slave revolt. I never addressed the idea of slave revolts and escapes. I was addressing this idea of rudus suddenly becoming this champion of abolition and, to quote bender from futurama, "the whole must learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE". It's a story beat that would make for compelling entire arc of a series but clearly is not going to be a thing here nor have I really seen it handled good anywhere in any isekai. Also am I misremembering or is what's happened in this episode not the same as saving the kidnapped kids in season 1 on the demon continent? Like I remember them having to work with smugglers(aka criminals) to travel across an ocean then they proceeded to kill them all and free the kids. The slavery there was on the downlow, I think it took place in some small secluded house in the forest. It was clearly criminal. Whereas in this episode, the slavery operation is basically out in the open on the city street, and clearly is a (COMPLETLY IMMORAL) functioning business, hence my comparison of destroying it to destroying something like Wal-Mart. One was a criminal problem and the other is clearly a society problem. It's a dumb story beat, and I wish isekais would stop using it unless they are going to make it a central focus of the story. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2406 |
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Just as an aside, this is a pretty poor argument. The author has control over the narrative, so they can write in a solution any way they seem fit. Better yet if they introduce something earlier. And what do you know? Rudeus' father helped build a refugee camp, search party, and so on. It's focused on displacement residents, but Paul would absolutely do Rudeus a favor if he asked. [Edit] Oops. You replied again and I think you explained yourself better this time. I agree with that last sentiment especially. I still don't think Rudy would willingly just free slaves for the sake of freeing slaves. He's a morally grey character and overlooks a lot of injustice in this new world. But the author wanted to bring Julie into the narrative as a slave. I feel like writing a story where Rudy has to sneak in and stop a slave trade would be a great opportunity to the same end and more. Or maybe instead of stopping a slave trade, he just coincidentally happens upon an incident, gets involved, and frees Julie/other slaves involved. Heck, does Julie have to be a slave? I don't think the author is a "bad person" (whatever that means) or even a "bad author", but I do think he's approached a very sensitive topic very clumsily, and it's fine to criticize the move. Last edited by Juno016 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 137 |
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From the start, I think it's fair to say Mushoku Tensei is not for everyone, and I think it's in everyone's best interest to accept that we all have limits, and this is some peoples' limit. When it's great, it's really great. It has a really intuitive, powerful, and interesting character narrative, worldbuilding, and political grounding. And when it does this kind of thing, it's just super frustrating. Slavery in the narrative or as part of this pretty archaic, cruel society with class and race/species divides isn't itself a problem. Mushoku Tensei has handled the topic relatively fine thus far. As a morally grey character, Rudy ignoring the societal issues is none too surprising, and I think adding Rujierd in earlier to check him on that front and not let him get away with ignoring injustice was a great experience for him, too. But as many people here have mentioned, this very particular instance is super hard to just let be. Rudy is himself actively engaging in the slave trade, contradicting his character arc and the story's approach to the topic from earlier arcs, for an extremely menial reason (even if the outcome is needed for the story). The slave they buy is also for a man known explicitely for his cruelty and lack of empathy, as well as a bit of pervertedness (though it's debatable that his pervertedness would apply to real people, it's still not a risk most people would take with a child). It starts out framed as a "date" and while I'm fine with the moment he saved Julie, it does seem like much of the wind is taken out by the circumstances surrounding it. I do have the foresight to know they treat Julie well and that she is not the butt of jokes or the subject of perverted gazes and such, at least while she's a child. Zanoba is surprisingly a good and kind "master", and he treats Julie as an apprentace, not a slave. So if anyone is worried about that, don't be. Nonetheless, she's still a slave, and that's a narrative issue. For those considering dropping the series, I can't emphasize enough that next episode is also going to be a doozy. If you can get through that, great. The story still has plenty more highs to go through, and the story immediately following is one of them. If you can't and feel obligated to drop it, though, don't feel bad about that. There's a lot of great stuff out there, and thankfully, not every isekai does crap like this (might I recommend Re:Zero?). Either way, it's probably not really going to do anyone any good making snarky remarks in the thread toward the show or each other.[/quote] I'm fine with being critical of slavery's usage here, as it does keep the old trope of "savior complex" going as a justification and with how blase it was treated by all involved. I still find it surprising that this is the cutoff point when MT has had far more controversial scenes in the past that should have been a turnoff. By isekai standards, this is par for the course -- as quite frankly only a few seem to use slavery well (Shield Hero, Realist Hero being the best recent examples). I don't think Zanoba is a pedophile though, so concerns of a girl going to a "pervert" don't make much sense. He might cross lines, but he doesn't cross *that* line All the chatter about next episode is making me very excited to see what actually happens. I like when controversy surrounds an episode because the Twitter blowback becomes very popcorn worthy if it's actually controversial. Can't wait. |
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