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Cephus
 Posts: 139 Location: Redlands, CA |
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Fansubbers are only a threat to the status quo, they are not a threat to the product line itself. Since DVD release is going to take months or more no matter what you do, it shouldn't be the first line of attack, it's only really going to appeal to the collectors and completists. The simple fact is, if the licensing process means that the R1 industry is going to be behind, then the licensing process needs to be streamlined. If the Japanese don't like it and they are, indeed, as dependent on Western dollars as they say they are, then they need to change the way they do business as well, whether they like it or not. They either change or R1 companies stop buying their products and everyone goes out of business. The Japanese are getting sick of the status quo too, they don't want to be paying $60 for 2 episodes on DVD any more than anyone in the U.S. does, that's why Bandai Visual's sales suck. The status quo is going away, whether they like it or not, they can either fight it and go under or they can embrace change and profit from it.
My idea a long time ago was to have the Japanese put up subbed copies of everything they put on TV the day after it airs. Put it up in multiple languages. Charge the requisite buck or two. Beat out even the fansubbers who cannot work that fast because they don't have access to the scripts before the show airs like the producers do. The Japanese could make a killing if they wanted to.
Hear hear! |
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lackofcheese
Posts: 25 |
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Since it seems the Japanese are heavily reliant on international sales (though not more so than domestic), they have yet more incentive to sort out the fansubber problem - my suggestion would certainly be worth trying, at the very least, since I doubt the anime industry would embrace its own death.
Good point. Consequently, I admit my whole R1 vs R2 argument is moot. However, the fansubbing agreement I suggested can still apply to fansubs in general. All the anime industry has to do is provide a legal online service to offer unsubtitled anime. Subtitles would then be a separate, free product from the fansub groups, and could be combined in a number of ways. My personal favourite suggestion is that in conjunction with the legal download, links to fan-made subtitles that would work with the download would be offered. In any case, some kind of compromise would likely be necessary, and to a great extent this is why I would love to see what the fansubbers themselves think of this kind of idea, and what kind of agreement they would be happy with. In offering a legal online service to the entire world, with an open agreement with fansubbers, the Japanese anime industry would allow fansubs from any country to be legally used together with the service - at absolutely no cost apart from that of offering the service itself. I agree that Cephus' suggestions are perfectly valid ones, and they seem to be more standard business practice. However, they both involve much more initial expense, and hence risk, than my suggestion - but that's not to say that they cannot coexist. For example, let me plot out a scenario:- 1) The Japanese industry makes the distribution of fan-made subtitles legal, but not the video content 2) The Japanese industry puts up unsubtitled anime on a download website, leaving an opening for fansubbers to upload their fansubs to the legal download service 3) The fans, worldwide, finally show their true colours - are they really willing to pay for anime? 4)a) If no, then we get early warning that anime is doomed to fail, and the scenario ends here. b) If yes, then there is hope 5) Having realised fans are willing to pay for downloads of their anime, as long as it is released in a timely manner, competition will arise from contracted translators. Do you ask how contracted translators can compete? As Cephus said, if they are given the script before the anime is released, they will have more time than the fansubbers. With more time, they can produce a higher quality product. 6) Consequently, the Japanese could (though this is not certain) also profit from contracted translation, since if they can offer a better quality translation, people will be willing to pay more. 7)a) If the licensing process were to be streamlined, it is possible the U.S. anime industry could offer a better product, and so they too would be able to compete. b) If the U.S. anime industry can't compete with that, then they can fall back on sales of merchandise, DVDs, and dubs in particular, since dubs would be unique to them. 8) If this isn't good enough for the U.S. anime industry, then they must adapt to survive, but they would be replaced by a newly global anime industry, so the loss would not be a great sorrow. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16961 |
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If you still are asking that than you have not paid attention the other 12 pages here or any of the other plethora of related threads you yourself have posted in. You sir have your blinders well and truly on obviously.
Just to clarify my own post, I'm not saying all companies derive more sales internationally than domestically. I'm also not saying all of those international sales are strictly from the US. However, on a whole the anime industry gains more sales anymore of dvd releases (just looking at the dvd releases now) than domestically. Majority of that international revenue obviously comes from us here in the States. I love how people ehre in the US bitch about the prices yet they're cheaper here than damn near anywhere else. Certainly more so than in Japan. Why do you think so many fans import R! releases over buying their own R2? More bang for their buck. |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2242 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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But sales don't matter, PROFIT does. Though they sell more copies of DVDs overseas, they make far less money per DVD sold than domestically, so just looking at sales figures is misleading. Profit numbers are a lot harder to find publically, but at least for the examples I stated 70% of profits are still generated domestically. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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That is really exactly what the NDA covers, unfortunately. A digital distribution system that doesn't "charge" anything. Therefore any details on its revenue model would be fully covered by the NDA. My apologies, but I can't comment on it. -Tofu |
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Cephus
Posts: 139 Location: Redlands, CA |
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Considering most shows are fansubbed before they're even licensed in R1, please explain how the fansubbers can be stealing from R1 licensees before they even exist? Or are you just going to keep making the same tired, empty assertions? |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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Because people see the fansubs and move on. By the time the DVDs come out, they are not interested in purchasing them. I am describing a very large segment of the fanbase around the world. Also, the fansubs do continue to circulate around even when the fansub groups drop the series. -Tofu |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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Certainly, but I think it’s unreasonable to place all the responsibility on the R1 companies. Why should they concede to all these ridiculous demands, while the fansub groups are not willing to make similar concessions? Several posters in this very thread have stated that they have no intention of stopping their activities, unless their unrealistic expectations are met. This arrogant demeanor is NOT conducive to “working with the industry” but, as Zac referred to it, “holding the industry hostage.” Suppose by some miraculous turn of events that these two groups do reconcile and work together. With the vast proliferation of the fansubbing community, does anyone else see a problem? I would guarantee that the fansub groups that are not in the “chosen few” will continue and no doubt that this will undermine any potential positive gain that would be acquired from the merger between the two parties. I also do not understand all this misdirected ire that many fansub groups place on the R1 companies simply do them being “middle-men.” They seem to have deluded themselves that the R1 industry is “corrupting” the product, while fansubs are somehow “pure.” All these misconceptions that they erroneously spread are simply FUD. I, personally, do not care if one downloads fansubs. Obviously, I do not have any control over this. But I believe that many fansubbers need to thoroughly review their proposed “solutions” as everyone I’ve seen listed is, as I stated before, unrealistic and illogical. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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krelyan, you've managed to grossly misunderstand my point. Fansubbing as a whole will not stop. The industry needs to combat the negative effect that fansubbing is having on sales by coming up with systems to make fansubbing of destined-to-be-licensed titles obsolete. I feel that involving fansubbers would be prudent and beneficial to the industry on all sides of the pacific but others disagree. I also feel it'd be a cost effective way to manage a smooth transition but of course there are those who disagree. I think I just summed up this entire thread. Can we let it die now? -Tofu |
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Miitan
Posts: 117 Location: Gensokyo, UK |
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Well I thought I'd air my thoughts on this subject (since everyone else has).
Being someone who watches fansubs and then purchases the R1 DVDs despite having to import them due to being in the UK (a rarity apparantly according to the general consensus in this thread) I agree that we're at a stand-off currently. To be honest, what motivates me to purchase DVDs first and foremost is the answer to the question 'what am I getting for my money?' With fansubs being effectively free, what reason is there for people to pay for effectively the same thing on DVD? While it won't stop me purchasing a DVD if it's of a series I like (I won't even finish watching the fansubs if I dont like a series), it will make me question my purchasing priorities. Take, for example, the recent Haruhi SE releases. For a few pound more I got a nice box, a CD, an original broadcast DVD and a piece of, in some cases questionable, merchandise. The problem is that I know I'm probably in the minority with this (unless someone wants to prove me wrong). Ideally what would suit me fine is if the R2 releases simply included an English subtitle track (hides inside nuclear bunker), maybe with input from fansubbers, along with the collectable extras which most of them come with. I'd be happy to pay £5 extra to get, what I consider, more value. The people who want their dub releases could then wait the extra time it takes to license a show for R1 release and dub it before they buy it. Alternatively as someone mentioned before, I'd happily pay £20 a month to be able to sit down after work and watch an English subtitled release of the latest episode of <insert a recent anime here, I'm slightly behind> within a few days of it's airing in Japan. It'd save me the hassle of searching the local bittorrent archives and make my life easier. |
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lackofcheese
Posts: 25 |
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Nice summary Tofu. I hope that whatever the anime industry itself does, it at least agrees on a solution of some kind. It's nice to see that we agree over the nature of the best solution also.
If, indeed, your NDA covers a new solution, then that can only mean that we as anime fans have something to hope for. The thread has indeed run its course though. EDIT: However, Tofu, what did you think of my way of handling fansubs? If the anime industry were to legalise the distribution of the subtitles only, and ensure that an anime product is available to the end user soon after Japanese airing, then hopefully fansubbers would distribute the subtitles only rather than illegaly distrubiting the anime itself. The intent of my solution is to "prey" upon the weaknesses of the fansubber. Firstly, many fansubbers have some kind of moral code, so if you give them a solution endorsed by the anime industry, they should be willing to take it up. Secondly, fansub groups can still keep their share of "glory" if many users choose to make use of their subtitles. As far as subtitling goes, fansubbers provide a free public service, and for that to be illegal makes no sense and is one of the many weaknesses of copyright law. However, their distribution of the anime itself is indeed illegal and, in the absence of a current system where the public as a whole would pay for such things, should be. That's not to say that people wouldn't distribute the anime itself. Illegal distribution will occur with any digital media. One would just hope that the end user would make the right choice. |
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Cephus
Posts: 139 Location: Redlands, CA |
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That rather disproves an assertion someone made earlier in the thread where the majority of fans only watch dubs, doesn't it? Besides, maybe that just points to the need to license anime FASTER, there are plenty of fansub groups that will stop doing a show once it's licensed. If R1 companies licensed the anime before it ever aired, as they'd need to in order to put their own subs online, the number of fansubs would drop dramatically. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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It's actually not a bad idea at all as long as it was all tied into a centralized system. Sort of like the anime equivalent of http://www.manganovel.com/store/index.html. Of course I see WAY too many business reasons why it will never happen, but that doesn't need to be discussed any further.
You mean like:
What I said in my very first post in this thread? Now can we please please let this thread die? 
-Tofu Last edited by Tofusensei on Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:01 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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lackofcheese
Posts: 25 |
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It's true enough, sadly business practice is all too unwilling to be adaptable. I'm just hoping to see a legal, global, online anime distribution system that works, as soon as possible (I live in Australia, so many of these U.S. only services I just can't use).
Last edited by lackofcheese on Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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No, I do understand what you have posted. I was not aiming my earlier post directly at you, Tofu.
But have the R1 companies not begun to take steps toward this goal? Many offer free viewings of entire episodes on their websites. Funi has posted several shows to iTunes. Others have posted shows on other digital distribution mediums. ADV tried to set-up an anime cable network. Now, I realize there’s no perfect system and it has been slow, but I would assume there may be legal technicalities in their licensing contracts that they would need to be careful with. However, what I was trying to get across earlier is that it is just not feasible to put out such a product that will make fansubs “obsolete.” It’s requiring the product to compete with fast, free, (arguably) quality and actual digital copy. For the R1 companies to be successful there WILL have to be some kind of cost, whether it’s paying for a digital copy or a “buffet-style” subscription / on-demand service. Even streaming via an ad-run setup would likely require a loss in quality due to heavy compression and also no actual ownership. It’s just not realistic that the R1 companies can match ALL of what fansubs do. And unless they do, I don’t see fansubs even remotely being phased out. One side is being forced to play by a set of rules that the other side does not have to abide by. Guess which team will win every time? I guess that’s where we disagree. Last edited by krelyan on Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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