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EP. REVIEW: Wonder Egg Priority


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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15572
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:56 pm Reply with quote
marshmallowpie wrote:
Just a suggestion, but maybe don't use a term when you don't understand what it means... a "terf" would be more likely to "shame" a person (regardless of sex) for presenting in a "feminine" way — long hair, makeup, fake nails, high heels, etc, which are all physical shackles (impractical, time-consuming, potentially dangerous) and capitalistic stereotypes of femininity that only apply to humans. I say this as a "gender" non-conforming homosexual woman (which apparently makes me a bigot!) who both wanted to be and wanted to be with characters like MGNK's Kashima or Aoi Hana's Yasuko.


That is some useful insight. My understanding about calling the character a TERF was in regards to how she went berserk after finding out the masculinely presenting person was biologically(?) female, accusing her Momoe of tricking her. I think that think that this is pretty in line with TERF ideology where they tend to be pretty in favour of biology essentialism, and especially in the case that she seemed to be very protective of a perceived female space which I would say probably lies in an element of misandry.

Getting a concrete definition of TERF can be pretty difficult, but the basis is Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. So they generally it is about being a feminist to the radical degree that it is often a dislike of anything seen masculine, can go from anything from a general mistrust of men to a strong dislike of expectations put on women by men/patriarchy. And excluding of trans, which often means not accepting things like presentation, which they see as trying to trick or fool other people. It is not limited to women to be a TERF, since men can also be very likely to act protective of women and see trans people of trying to trick people to get into spaces. We should know how within the anime community there are a lot of men that can see people who present differently from their biology as trying to trick people.
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OtherSideofSky





PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:01 pm Reply with quote
Pretty sure the whole point of the term "TERF" is to call out people who identify as feminist but are transphobic (starting with some second-wave big names who would hold events with labels like "biological women only" and spout other transphobic rhetoric). The use of the term in the review would only make sense if you assumed Momoe is trans, which I doubt will turn out to be the case.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2267
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:40 pm Reply with quote
marshmallowpie wrote:
Just a suggestion, but maybe don't use a term when you don't understand what it means... a "terf" would be more likely to "shame" a person (regardless of sex) for presenting in a "feminine" way — long hair, makeup, fake nails, high heels, etc, which are all physical shackles (impractical, time-consuming, potentially dangerous) and capitalistic stereotypes of femininity that only apply to humans. I say this as a "gender" non-conforming homosexual woman (which apparently makes me a bigot!) who both wanted to be and wanted to be with characters like MGNK's Kashima or Aoi Hana's Yasuko.


I feel like this is conflating two ideologies here, TE vs RF; radical feminists do often decry anything feminine because they view femininity itself as a shackle imposed by a patriarchal society. But when people talk about TERFs specifically, they’re usually emphasizing the TE part: the trans-exclusionary part.

When the second Wonder Killer is saying Momoe has no right to be there, it can be inferred that anyone who presented as masculine, regardless of their actual gender identity, would be chastised and attacked by that killer. But I think the TERF label would only be accurate if Momoe herself turned out to be trans or non-binary. That said, I didn’t personally read that scene that way: for me, it was a mix of the Wonder Killer’s conservative ideas of what a girl should look like (ie, only ever feminine) butting up against Momoe’s (reluctant?) masculine appearance.

EDIT: That aside, I’m more than a little worried that the show is going to (intentionally or not) windup making Momoe’s friend come across as somewhat predatory (and the Predatory Lesbian is a trope that can go jump in a lake). It seems to me like Momoe has a lot of trouble refusing these girls’ advances, and she clearly felt, if not outright assaulted, at least extremely uncomfortable when her friend put Momoe’s hand on her breast. And I worry that if Momoe turns out to be a straight cis girl, it’s gonna be an uncomfortable episode to sit through if the show opts to paint the best friend as the oppressor in this situation, where Momoe felt pressured to go along to get along until she couldn’t take it anymore and rejected the friend, who then committed suicide.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Given the historical oppression and repression that has plagued queer voices and representation, I totally understand the reactive movement towards clarity and explicitness. However, I think this reaction also sometimes loses sight of the inherent difficulty of translating any part of one's identity into language and art, which compounds exponentially when considering the inner, interpersonal, and societal complexities of gender and sexuality, neither of which are binary, nor necessarily rigid.


Given the historical oppression and repression that has plagued queer voices and representation, we have the right to be protective of our experiences and to ask who is translating our identities onscreen?

In this case, the staff is composed of cis men, and it's prudent to be cautious about their interpretations of our female, non-binary, trans and/or LGBTQ+ identities, as well as trauma survivors and people with mental health issues or experiences with suicidality. People have been speaking about us without us for centuries, and while that can result in resonant art, it can also result in reinforcing painful inaccuracies, misconceptions and stereotypes.

Quote:
And I mean, what even is gender? I don't know! ....Gender is fake and a construct but it's also extremely real and painful and euphoric.
...After all, there are differences between the genders when it comes to suicide, but only because there are so many differences between how society treats and perceives those genders. The Acca bros gravitate towards a clean delineation, because doing so probably benefits them in some way. But like gender itself, this issue is a whole lot messier than a short binary platitude.

But while I don't trust the show's writers (I will be skeptical at least until this show demonstrates that it is not using it's topics for mere sensationalism), I absolutely trust ANN's reviewer, Steve Jones, to analyze this show and the issues it touches with sensitivity. This review was nuanced and beautiful.

Content warning :On Gender and Suicide:

I'd urge caution in discussing such a sensitive subject. Let's not reinforce ideas about non-lethal attempts being "merely cries for help/attention", that's a dangerous misconception.

Quote:
Most suicide attempts are just attention seeking or a “cry for help”

This is a potentially very harmful myth that attempts to diminish the suffering of people who have tried to take their life. Anyone who thinks about or attempts suicide deserves compassion and to be taken seriously.

What’s more, once someone has attempted suicide and survived, they are more likely to try again. In fact a suicide survivor is 100 times more likely to complete suicide than someone who has never previously attempted it. For that reason, they absolutely should be given attention.

Source: https://www.professionalhelp.org.uk/2020/09/a-cry-for-help-myths-and-misconceptions-about-suicide/

Furthermore, unfortunately and tragically,, a recent study has found that girls have been choosing more lethal methods, which is narrowing the perceived gender gap:

Quote:
“Overall, we found a disproportionate increase in female youth suicide rates compared to males, resulting in a narrowing of the gap between male and female suicide rates,” said study lead author Donna Ruch, PhD, a postdoctoral researcher in the Center for Suicide Prevention and Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital, Columbus, Ohio.

Dr. Ruch and colleagues investigated youth suicide trends in the United States between 1975 and 2016. The study included 85,051 suicide deaths of youth age 10 through 19.

Researchers identified a downward trend in suicide rates for both sexes in the early 1990s. Since 2007, however, rates of suicide have increased for both sexes—but suicide rates among adolescent girls increased more. Girls between the ages of 10 and 14 showed the largest percentage increase.

The study also found that rates of suicide by hanging or suffocation for girls are approaching those for boys.


Source: https://www.psychcongress.com/article/young-girls-suicide-rate-shows-unprecedented-growth

and in Japan in particular, women's suicide rates have been going up exponentially because of the pandemic

Quote:
...the rise in suicides has disproportionately affected women. Although they represent a smaller proportion of total suicides than men, the number of women taking their own lives is increasing. In October, suicides among women in Japan increased almost 83% compared to the same month the previous year. For comparison, male suicides rose almost 22% over the same time period.
There are several potential reasons for this. Women make up a larger percentage of part-time workers in the hotel, food service and retail industries -- where layoffs have been deep. Kobayashi said many of her friends have been laid off. "Japan has been ignoring women," she said. "This is a society where the weakest people are cut off first when something bad happens."
In a global study of more than 10,000 people, conducted by non-profit international aid organization CARE, 27% of women reported increased challenges with mental health during the pandemic, compared to 10% of men.

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/28/asia/japan-suicide-women-covid-dst-intl-hnk/index.html
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:14 am Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
Given the historical oppression and repression that has plagued queer voices and representation, we have the right to be protective of our experiences and to ask who is translating our identities onscreen?

In this case, the staff is composed of cis men, and it's prudent to be cautious about their interpretations of our female, non-binary, trans and/or LGBTQ+ identities, as well as trauma survivors and people with mental health issues or experiences with suicidality. People have been speaking about us without us for centuries, and while that can result in resonant art, it can also result in reinforcing painful inaccuracies, misconceptions and stereotypes.


I believe it was the recent Philosophy Tube video where she took a stand against the expected stories for coming out, what she saw as a cisnormative way it is often done. It was something about the not being a case of what cis people say about trans people, and more of what one recounting their own story.

It does require a level of scepticism by people outside of the group. The argument is there about some similarity just with a character bucking against what people assuming their gender is, but it runs the risk of some erasure. Just like all those anime that have very feminine looking AMAB characters, that just have to tell everyone that despite the way they look or act that they really are a boy. Which I suspect is partially responsible for a certain part of the anime community to see such appearance as some sort of trick.

When I said something about suicide attempts often being a call for help, I in no way meant that was all they would be. I just in general think that anyone who might feel compelled to try something is in a place that they are able to handle things, and is more than just some logical decision or they are just crazy. Whether there is someone meant to receive a message or not, the act is often an attempt to not to think or deal with something anymore, which is a type of call for help, if not at a person but the universe. I have no idea if there is a connection to something like less or more lethal methods.
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Helix91
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Joined: 30 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:00 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:

EDIT: That aside, I’m more than a little worried that the show is going to (intentionally or not) windup making Momoe’s friend come across as somewhat predatory (and the Predatory Lesbian is a trope that can go jump in a lake). It seems to me like Momoe has a lot of trouble refusing these girls’ advances, and she clearly felt, if not outright assaulted, at least extremely uncomfortable when her friend put Momoe’s hand on her breast. And I worry that if Momoe turns out to be a straight cis girl, it’s gonna be an uncomfortable episode to sit through if the show opts to paint the best friend as the oppressor in this situation, where Momoe felt pressured to go along to get along until she couldn’t take it anymore and rejected the friend, who then committed suicide.


I share this concern, but at this point we actually know very little about Momoe's self identity. The conversation with the Adam's Apple is clearly meant to confirm their biological sex to the audience. As for their gender and sexuality, I don't think we know very much. I honestly could see Momoe being a straight cis girl who likes wearing boy's clothes, a lesbian with internalized homophobia, or a trans man. How the show handles Momoe in the next few weeks is going to reveal if the writers bit off more than they can chew or not.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:58 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator I wasn’t responding to your comments, I was responding to meiam’s comment here:

meiam wrote:

The choice of suicide attempt is dictated by what people are trying to accomplish by committing suicide. People who just want to stop living will pick something that won't fail, people who are looking for help/attention will pick something that will probably fail. So while the difference in death by suicide come down to the means of suicide, those still show strong difference between male suicide and female suicide.
.

That’s a dangerous assumption. People in crisis use what’s readily available to them. That doesn’t mean they won’t respond to help if it’s offered before their attempt or if they survive and are offered help afterwards, but it does mean that method=|=“attention seeking” (which has a negative connotation). As I showed in my post, unfortunately and tragically, the perceived gender gap is getting smaller.

I’m glad the director clarified that Neiru outright rejected Acca’s gender essentialist explanation in the original script by saying “as for brains, boys and girls are the same.” Because emotionally when it comes to trauma and mental health crisis (and in a lot of other aspects of life , too, that’s just the most relevant here), boys and girls are the same, or at least, more alike than different. Gender should not be framed as the most relevant factor in suicide. The aspect of gender that is most relevant to suicide is that LGBT+ teens are at greater risk—because they are at greater risk of being rejected and experiencing trauma by their families and/or peers and/or societies. Sad
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That's Big!



Joined: 23 Jan 2021
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:00 am Reply with quote
OtherSideofSky wrote:
Pretty sure the whole point of the term "TERF" is to call out people who identify as feminist but are transphobic (starting with some second-wave big names who would hold events with labels like "biological women only" and spout other transphobic rhetoric). The use of the term in the review would only make sense if you assumed Momoe is trans, which I doubt will turn out to be the case.


TERF is one of those words that lost all meaning and became a general insult towards people. The idea of calling someone who isn't a feminist a TERF makes zero sense given the acronym. You are right it's a word that's supposed to refer to people who exclude transwomen in discussions of feminism which is why the use of the word in this context makes no sense. The whole point of the episode was molestation and given that is why women's only cars are a thing to begin with, it's pretty clear a woman being upset that someone she thought was a man was in the women's train car was about that rather than 'gender policing'.
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whiskeyii



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:38 pm Reply with quote
So my current wild theory this week is that this show is going to try to deconstruct (among other things) the fantasy of teacher-student relationships and/or the fantasy of dating older men. It seems to me like the show is setting up a dynamic of Sawaki pursuing Ai (for majorly creepo art reasons about "preserving innocence" or some such nonsense), and Koito pursuing Sawaki because she has a crush on him. I think Koito ran into the reality of what student-teacher relationships are really like (i.e., an abuse of power and life experience), and Ai is going to be plagued by a teacher who is obsessed with her "charming" eyes--making her the prey of an older man in a position of authority. *shudder*

Also, can't believe I didn't realize it til now, but everyone is reliving their trauma with their Egg Wards: Rika gets idol fans, Momoe gets girls who fall for her/her appearance, Ai gets schoolgirls who have issues with teachers and/or bullies, and Neiru gets...older women? Girls who were preyed on by older men? That definitely suggests a lot of unpleasantness about Neiru's sister.
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harminia



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:53 pm Reply with quote
I liked that this episode took a lot of thoughts/theories the fanbase had and discussed it. Like, having Rika saying all the stuff the fans were thinking was pretty good.
It was a pretty cute episode when it was about the girls just hanging. I laughed at how they manipulated the acca's into letting them play a game.

Neiru was so bad-ass. I love her catch phrase. The egg chick she got was pretty intense. And the twist with her back story was interesting too.
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Tanteikingdomkey



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:06 pm Reply with quote
making the egg person (IDK the term), was the reason they committed suicide, was a nice twist but makes perfect sense.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:30 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Also, can't believe I didn't realize it til now, but everyone is reliving their trauma with their Egg Wards: Rika gets idol fans, Momoe gets girls who fall for her/her appearance, Ai gets schoolgirls who have issues with teachers and/or bullies, and Neiru gets...older women? Girls who were preyed on by older men? That definitely suggests a lot of unpleasantness about Neiru's sister.


Yeah, I had been kind of thinking along these lines after the thought how the molested egg ward girl had her monster be the guy who molested her, when I thought that if Ai had that girl instead it would have made more sense to be the mother who did not stand up for her. Momoe's generally lead in ways about people forcing ideas of femineity and stuff, where the ward would confess onto her at the end, something that is a generally a sticking point for Momoe.

The first one we saw of Neiru mentioned things about money, which I think must be related to how Neiru is a president of a business, and how she is afraid if people might value her without what she might contribute capitally. The hair egg scenario I think goes a bit into how Neiru may have some confidence issues about her own body, maybe too much of a leap to say whether her ethnicity, how she did not like her hair touched, but probably something about that scar on her back.
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dm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:13 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
The first one we saw of Neiru mentioned things about money, which I think must be related to how Neiru is a president of a business, and how she is afraid if people might value her without what she might contribute capitally.


Plus Neiru practically quoted him when she said that she wasn't redeeming eggs for her sister, she was doing it for herself.

DuskyPredator wrote:
The hair egg scenario I think goes a bit into how Neiru may have some confidence issues about her own body, maybe too much of a leap to say whether her ethnicity, how she did not like her hair touched, but probably something about that scar on her back.


I thought it was interesting that she shied away from being touched by the egg ward with the perfect hair, but had surprisingly little adverse reaction to Rika invading her space and tickling her.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:18 pm Reply with quote
@ whiskeyii, here's my own theory of what may be going on with Sensei Sawaki that I posted in the series discussion forum:

For me, the most significant part of Episode 5 was learning that originally Sensei wanted to paint Ai and she had agreed. It seemed like his intent was her to become more confident about her appearance, especially her eyes. Then Koito seemed to talk her out of letting Sensei use the painting in an exhibition. She claims his goal is to win a prize and then make a living as a painter. Koito tells Ai she shouldn't do it if she's not confident because it's important for sensei's future. Then we see Koito has become his model.

So here's my theory: both Ai and Koito had a crush on sensei. Koito didn't like where the "Ai being sensei's model" was going so she sabotaged it and took Ai's place. Then at some point she confessed her feelings to sensei and he rejected them as being inappropriate due to the teacher-student dynamic. Koito killed herself in reaction. In other words the "Koito being bullied and Ai not doing anything about it" was just a red herring.

A darker version of this theory is that Koito confessed to Sensei and he either directly or indirectly indicated he had feelings for Ai. Or perhaps Koito merely assumed his rejection was because he had feelings for Ai. So her suicide might have been an "eff you" to them both.

Another theory: ultimately, this show won't be about "saving" the girls whom our leads feel responsible with respect to their suicides. It will be undergoing an experience that lets them accept it wasn't their fault and to accept the deaths of their friends/relatives and be able to move on.
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Anneyuno1



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:30 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
So my current wild theory this week is that this show is going to try to deconstruct (among other things) the fantasy of teacher-student relationships and/or the fantasy of dating older men.


it would be great, if the story to take that way so it will point a precedent and a serious criticism against several animes where romanticize these relationships.
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