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CTM162
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Location: Michigan, USA
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:40 pm
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I also think that the group that we learn at the end of the original story (I'm someone who read the VN) manipulating Takano to do their bidding are the ones now mainly responsible for each arc's plot beats. I never liked the fact that they essentially got away scot free in the original and were basically introduced to be shadow puppets for the main evil to explain their actions at any given time. My first thought when I saw how differently things were going despite the same presence of the Mountain Hounds were exactly how different their involvement must be this time around, with Takano and Tomitake behaving differently on account of their relationship somehow turning sour before putting their plan in action. Hell, there's even a scene where we see them running off in a hurry during the festival that Shion narrates! Not that that last bit means anything on its own, since as one person already stated, the previous TV show was not shy to present unreliable information visually as a means to fool viewers, whether from a protagonist character's own viewpoint or not.
So I find that theory not only plausible, but most likely at this point. When it became more apparent that this series was going to be a sequel, I saw it as a chance for the original story's shadow villains to face karma. They weren't the focus of the story or its themes, for sure, but they were still just vaguely explained plot devices. Now a chance exists to perhaps seem them fleshed out and perhaps become more important. Perhaps we might even see the possibility of their existence being tied to the machinations of witches in the Umineko universe, if certain references are interpreted that way. Someone mentioned the logic error, for example; it would certainly be interesting to see these plot points explored in a meaningful way.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2265
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:30 pm
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There's so much going on in this episode, but I can't shake the feeling that even as a veteran Higurashi watcher, there's a lot that's being obfuscated from me. For example, Mion seemed to have scratches on her neck when she was shown alongside Satoko, but is that a sign of Mion reaching L5 or is that a red herring? The gun that she took from the drawer also doesn't seem to be the same one in the corridor (that seems to be the same gun Mion usually carries in her holster), but it's not clear yet if that's just an animation goof or an intentional detail. There's so much to speculate about this time around!
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:42 pm
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Now that You mentión that, the three outfits thing annoys me to no end, it's the thing of thing beatrice would do.it does not make the murders easier to do and it is just done to misled whoever wants to investigate. Well as long as they don't pull the triplets card, i hated it when majijo did that.
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PonSquared
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Lost in the Catskills
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:43 pm
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Doesn't Keiichi need to die for the loop to reset, or is it more like Groundhog Day, where unless everything happens perfectly (everyone lives?) no matter what else happens it will reset at some point on that last day? I just don't understand why there was so much effort put into killing Keiichi in the first arc but here, apparently, the loop is going to reset with Keiichi still alive and relatively well.
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Yttrbio
Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3663
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:46 am
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I think this is clear from the stuff in this series without using knowledge from previous series, but I'll put it in spoilers just in case: Keichi may be the primary point of view character, but he isn't the one looping. Rika is.
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Animegomaniac
Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4135
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:07 am
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Episode 8 didn't end, it merely stopped. It's like they interrupted a Japanese horror movie with a Japanese Yakuza movie. There's no real mystery, I'm just irritated by it.
I don't doubt there will be a Mion answer arc like there was for Shion but I don't have any questions myself; If Mion as herself can lock up Keiichi, grab a gun and start shooting then the Mion at the ladder wasn't. Wow, mystery solved. Can we go home now?
MST3k "Off screen excitement, the Coleman Francis way!"
Thats the odd part, nothing happened in front of us, we were only told about it later. They took the most visceral ending of Higurashi's stories and... took Keiichi out of it.
They could have at least had him starve to death in a locked cell no one knew about.
...
Damn it, it's the same crap they pulled in the first story, off screen hands moving people we know couldn't do things on their own to create a "mystery".
"Here's all the clues, can you solve the mystery alongside our master detective?"
"Here's some of the clues. Can you solve the mystery alongside our master detective who has all the clues?"
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PonSquared
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Lost in the Catskills
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:07 am
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Yttrbio wrote: | I think this is clear from the stuff in this series without using knowledge from previous series, but I'll put it in spoilers just in case: Keichi may be the primary point of view character, but he isn't the one looping. Rika is. |
I don't think that's a spoiler. They showed as much at the beginning of the season. So, I don't think that can be right because Rika died long before Keiichi and the police officer were having their chat after all the murders the night before. if it was just Rica then all she would have to do is get on a train and ride it to some place outside of the village until the loop period ended at which point she would still be alive and all would be well... at least she would be okay.
So back to what I said earlier, I assume then, unless everything goes perfectly at some certain point on the final day the loop resets. Though, I'm not sure what is defined as perfectly in this series. Everyone living? The Shadow organization being found out and dealt with? Sacrificing the right person or people to the god? Or who knows whatever else...
I just hope at some point we get an actual ending figuring out what unbelievable series of events had to take place and in what order for the loop to be broken and everyone or at least some of them to move on to whatever their future is.
Also, I think Rika does the worst possible job in guiding events towards a possible winning solution. What right does she have to complain to Keiichi that he should have known better not to go into the shrine? you know, perhaps you could have told him earlier hey this is something you definitely shouldn't do. I don't know, make a list of things that don't work out and tell people not to do them going forward on each loop.
After thousands of loops has she basically just given up at this point? Doesn't look like she cares at all about doing the right thing period all she does is complain when people do the wrong thing. She in no way says what not to do. Maybe this was dealt with in an earlier loop? Her giving everyone hints and tips to do the right thing backfiring on her? I don't know. But, if Bill Murray and Groundhog's Day can figure it out I don't see why Rika couldn't be making at least some progress towards figuring things out at this point. She is by far my least favorite character because she's so useless and pathetic when she should be the puppet Master guiding things to her desired conclusions.
I got to hand it to this series creator, it's really fun speculating about this show.
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Zerreth
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
Location: E6
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:48 am
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PonSquared wrote: |
...if it was just Rica then all she would have to do is get on a train and ride it to some place outside of the village until the loop period ended at which point she would still be alive and all would be well... at least she would be okay.
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There's a reason she can't and I can't comment on it unless the show decides to review it.
PonSquared wrote: |
So back to what I said earlier, I assume then, unless everything goes perfectly at some certain point on the final day the loop resets. Though, I'm not sure what is defined as perfectly in this series. Everyone living? The Shadow organization being found out and dealt with? Sacrificing the right person or people to the god? Or who knows whatever else...
I just hope at some point we get an actual ending figuring out what unbelievable series of events had to take place and in what order for the loop to be broken and everyone or at least some of them to move on to whatever their future is.
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This kinda cements my belief that this show really isn't for newcomers. The original series was broken up into 2 major seasons tied similarly to the Visual novel as "Question" and "Answer" arcs where they end up doing a review in the latter season of what happeend, what keeps going wrong, and what rules need to be followed to maintain "continuity" and a "perfect" ending.
Rika achieves it and then for some reason gets thrown back in the loop which would explain her lack of motivation this time around. At this point, previous viewers (and Rika) know which rules were broken in each of the routes and when the dead end is triggered.
The few groups of people I associate with who have seen/read the previous work are pretty much just watching to see how the distortions play out while we try to figure out who's messing with the timeline by paying attention to the inconsistencies that occur post-dead end trigger.
Meanwhile, I can only expect this to seem frustrating for newcomers and I think it really is the fault of whomever that decided to market as newcomer friendly.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings
Joined: 04 Jul 2013
Posts: 1015
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 am
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PonSquared wrote: | Doesn't Keiichi need to die for the loop to reset, or is it more like Groundhog Day, where unless everything happens perfectly (everyone lives?) no matter what else happens it will reset at some point on that last day? I just don't understand why there was so much effort put into killing Keiichi in the first arc but here, apparently, the loop is going to reset with Keiichi still alive and relatively well. |
Loops don't reset, they keep going, because they aren't really "loops". They don't stop existing because one character dies, no matter how important that character is. The "fragments" in Higurashi are basically alternate worlds. Whenever Rika dies, Hanyuu takes her to a new fragment to start over, but the fragment she was just in doesn't just grind to a halt.
Quote: | Doesn't look like she cares at all about doing the right thing period all she does is complain when people do the wrong thing. She in no way says what not to do. Maybe this was dealt with in an earlier loop? |
Honestly Rika's irritation is pretty understandable, but she's making assumptions about what will happen or what's going to happen based on what's happened before and is lashing out when things don't go according to plan or when people don't behave in ways that she thinks they should.
For example. when Keiichi is confessing to her that he snuck into the storehouse and using "cats" as a not so subtle metaphor (minor spoilers for the original story) it turns out that, in the original version of this loop, Rika was the one that always initiated that dialogue. Keiichi never brought it up on his own. So for him to suddenly start talking like that means he likely vaguely remembers what their original conversation was like, just like he had those brief flashbacks of killing Rena in Onidamashi-hen. He remembers a trivial detail like that, but he doesn't remember anything important, like *not* to go into the storehouse? That's what she's frustrated about.
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PonSquared
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Lost in the Catskills
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:05 pm
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote: |
PonSquared wrote: | Doesn't Keiichi need to die for the loop to reset, or is it more like Groundhog Day, where unless everything happens perfectly (everyone lives?) no matter what else happens it will reset at some point on that last day? I just don't understand why there was so much effort put into killing Keiichi in the first arc but here, apparently, the loop is going to reset with Keiichi still alive and relatively well. |
Loops don't reset, they keep going, because they aren't really "loops". They don't stop existing because one character dies, no matter how important that character is. The "fragments" in Higurashi are basically alternate worlds. Whenever Rika dies, Hanyuu takes her to a new fragment to start over, but the fragment she was just in doesn't just grind to a halt.
Quote: | Doesn't look like she cares at all about doing the right thing period all she does is complain when people do the wrong thing. She in no way says what not to do. Maybe this was dealt with in an earlier loop? |
Honestly Rika's irritation is pretty understandable, but she's making assumptions about what will happen or what's going to happen based on what's happened before and is lashing out when things don't go according to plan or when people don't behave in ways that she thinks they should.
For example. when Keiichi is confessing to her that he snuck into the storehouse and using "cats" as a not so subtle metaphor (minor spoilers for the original story) it turns out that, in the original version of this loop, Rika was the one that always initiated that dialogue. Keiichi never brought it up on his own. So for him to suddenly start talking like that means he likely vaguely remembers what their original conversation was like, just like he had those brief flashbacks of killing Rena in Onidamashi-hen. He remembers a trivial detail like that, but he doesn't remember anything important, like *not* to go into the storehouse? That's what she's frustrated about. |
Thank you for the detailed reply. Just one thing jumped out at me with what you said...
If these are all alternative worlds and not a loop of the same world repeating itself, then how could Keiichi from universe 325436 possibly remember what he said or did from universe 427647432? Seems like a bit of a contradiction there...
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:07 pm
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I think the level of dificulty now is closer to umineko, So i hope we don't get straight answers arcs or at least just one.
Takanos actions are for me the most important rule being broken. We don't even nerd a new third party unless we are in a weird time interaction and we are witnessing the birth of lambda delta.
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:45 pm
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Ep 9 here now
Oh, But mion does not specifically said the three families un episode 08, she said Someone that supports the theory that she is actually referring to the yamainus as she might not the truth by being given hints by rika. Arc specific she might have stopped shion after the first murders again, being warned by rika
No Word on the Big brudder stuff, i have seen alternatives that arre worse for an internacional audience.
Thankfully, the irie joke is a joke un universo as well, he says all that pervy stuff, But he actually wants to be a reasonable parents, But there is no way they Will allow a single male adopta a female child, much less un 80s japan.i seem to remember that irie is part of the people who economically support the kids and that he was a thing for ciel sensei ( the latest would make him a sodomyte, but nothing wrong with that )
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rizuchan
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 977
Location: Kansas
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:47 am
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Quote: | If these are all alternative worlds and not a loop of the same world repeating itself, then how could Keiichi from universe 325436 possibly remember what he said or did from universe 427647432? Seems like a bit of a contradiction there... |
This is explained/hinted at in the original. The events have happened so many times that Keiichi "remembers" bits of pieces of alternate timelines. Like dejavu or a bad dream. So he can't clearly remember little details of what happened, but he might remember emotionally charged stuff, like the flashback we see at the beginning of episode 1. And by the end of Higurashi Kai, the events have happened so many times that everyone can remember little bits and pieces subconsciously.
So with that in mind, I'm not sure it's quite correct to say that they are all just alternate universes, there is clearly something of a timeline, since characters in the answer arcs usually appear to have "learned" something from the previous question arcs, even independent of Rika's meddling. Like the answer arcs are only able to exist because the question arcs looped so many times already.[/quote]
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:02 pm
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Yep, most japanese works blame that on karma. I think for the characters it's a sense of dejavu.
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yeehaw
Joined: 09 Sep 2018
Posts: 484
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:34 pm
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Hey Keiichi, when aa adult man tells you he intends to marry an 11-year old he was previously unable to adopt, that's when you go find your cop friend.
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