Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Attack on Titan
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danpmss
Posts: 777 |
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I mean, that post isn't arguing against strawmen, since this very same accusations did take place back when the manga was released, are still in part taking place in some discussions, and even took place in this very discussion, and your review does the same comparison "Eldians = Persecuted Jews" in a way. You are cherrypicking the text from that post to make your point in here. When the text speak about paralels, they are not speaking about DIRECT paralels. What does that mean? It means that they are in no way a direct representation of our actual history figures in any way. To quote a line some paragraphs bellow the one you just quoted
In that context, they are a mix of elements constructed to represent a very especific kind of conflict in this story. The chosen aspects that can be drawn as allusions or elements taken from the Nazi German persecution arein there, but they only a part of what it will soon become a theme of cycle of oppression inside the story, and they are represented accordingly because it is the actual bad element both sides are fighting against, even though their both societies are ironically using of it to repay the other in the same coin for their opression towards them (be it Marley on Paradis the same way Eldia did to them, be it Paradis and the Eldian Restorationists on Marley, the same way they are doing it now, but much more justifiably, the brainwashed population inside the walls, since as explained in Part 1 of season 3, Fritz and the Reiss family made all of the population oblivious about any information that ever happened outside the Walls). The post is meant to create food for thought for anime-onlies not for them to misjudge the story like people did back when the manga chapters for this part were released, without however, straight spoiling why is that so and give the actual point-of-view of a manga reader that already know what is to come. It isn't there to give you answers, but to give you reasons on why to consider it otherwise given previously and already established mentioned information thus far into the anime, despite the seemingly possible comparisons one could make on it. Which is again, why I posted, because that's indeed the case.
Again, they were NOT "clearly intended to be analogue for Jews" in any way, and instead, from the very start of this reveal, they can be at best slightly paraleled of what would become of a not still defeated Nazi German population that remained in victoriously retaken territory by Jews (assuming all of the surrounding countries from German territory were Jewish in that scenario) if they were to manage to back them off during the war, if you REALLY want to make a similar comparison like that (because there's a lot to it still to come and some stuff in this episode alone that already allude to many other mixed elements). They were equally treated and oppressed in the same way the Eldian did to them (or if you really want to call it, "Yet to be actually defeated in this story Nazi Germany" in Marley's perspective). Or do you think that, in Jewish retriven territory, nazi POW would have been treated ever so lightly and without any hard feelings after causing the holocaust but yet still not being properly defeated and a potential threat to be feared at a distance by that same population? Because that's the situation we have here, and if you think that's the case and that they would have been "the better person", you may want to read throughtout human history and be proven wrong by the several populations that, when faced with similar circumstances, would definitely have made them pay in the same coin in some way if the war was still not over. In that case, Eldians were strictly treated poorly albeit not outright thrown in concentration camps and having the Nazi golden time treatment towards their prisoners, for example, instead the Marley government opting to re-educated them into learning about their past crimes and their historical debt towards the Marleyan population, albeit clearly leaning into some fake history issues with the Marleyan government itself (History is made by the winners is quite the big truth to this day), who is definitely painting in a darker light their oppressors in the eyes of the captured Eldian population by ommiting any kind of positive view they may have possibly had in the past, which in turn motivated Eldian Restorationists such as Grisha to rebel for thinking that maybe EVERYTHING they said about their population's war crimes are a lie instead. Those who dare to rebel against Marley in any way would be turned into Mindless Titans and directed towards Paradis in an effort to halt any kind of oppressive behavior they may still be planning by using their own power against them (beforehand being tortured to know the whereabouts of their leaders, accordingly). Obviously, some of the soldiers are not as righteous and would prefer all of the Eldians died for good suffering, and even having fun making them fight to death after turned into mindless titans, like properly named Gross would do. Any further than that would spoil events that, as I told before, will be properly covered in the next episode, so I'll refrain myself from commenting on them now. And I really don't think I can be ANY clearer than that without spoiling stuff at this point, so hopefully that's enough to showcase the point in hand. |
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vonPeterhof
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Not disagreeing with your overall point, and admittedly this is a bit of a tangent, but is Fritz even common as an Ashkenazic name? Here in Russia it’s firmly associated with (non-Jewish) Germans, to the point that during World War II “Fritz” was a derogatory word for the German soldiers. Judging by British wartime propaganda, it was used similarly in the UK as well (I guess the US equivalent would be “Kraut”). But then, Hoffman isn’t really considered a “Jewish” name around here either, apparently unlike the US. |
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danpmss
Posts: 777 |
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That's because the story has purposefully mixed elements all around, not to pick sides nor directly represent anyone from our real history in any sort of fictional projection. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator Posts: 3013 |
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Rather bold of you to directly quote my post where I warn you to stop posting as though Jews are a monolith and you their chosen speaker, and then go on and post like Jews are a monolith and you their chosen speaker. The fact that you say Jewish audiences instead of "the Jews" does not change the fact that not all Jewish people agree that Life is Beautiful is some amazing masterpiece, and in fact it's been criticized by some for being offensive. And it may surprise you that some Jews in fact do NOT like the holocaust being used in a liberal fashion to make a point, and instead view that as gross and exploitative. Maybe I wasn't clear enough that I was speaking as a moderator, so let me be crystal clear now: STOP posting as though you speak for all Jews. On another note, you're bringing up Life is Beautiful is rather off topic. Even if it WAS universally loved and there wasn't a single person who thought it gross, that still wouldn't prove a thing about Attack on Titan and whether it is or isn't antisemitic, as AoT is a completely different work that doesn't even resemble Life is Beautiful. I could bring up the movie "The Day The Clown Cried", another film involving the holocaust that was apparently so offensive it never even got released, but it would be silly to act like the existence of The Day The Clown Cried somehow proved Attack on Titan is antisemitic. I could even bring up how famous and beloved movies like Schindler's List have been criticized by some for being antisemitic and gross, but that still would be irrelevant because Schindler's List is not Attack on Titan. "Schindler's List is not Attack on Titan" is not something I ever expected I would type, but here we are. Moving on to more pleasant things.
Mea culpa here, I should have considered how potentially different name associations can be throughout the world. I guess if I'm honest I can't even be sure the name Fritz is associated with Jews throughout the US, it may be more local or related to my own personal sphere and experiences. So I'll concede that point.
A couple points. -I'm not the reviewer. -The post you link to argues against the argument, among other things, that "Isayama uses Holocaust parallels, and is therefore a Nazi apologist", which brings up my comment about strawmen. That is an absurd argument, but it's also not an argument that either myself or James is making. I'd respond to more of your wall of text, but I'm honestly not sure there's a point, as it seems clear we're not gonna really come to any understanding here. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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It's a great point and should be emphasized more---I don't think there are any countries on Earth that are completely free of racism or "othering," but the United States, from slavery to the Trail of Tears to segregation and Jim Crow to Japanese internment to having forced sterilization still technically legal on a Federal level today (a law that supposedly "inspired" Hitler)--- has a REALLY long, awful history that many American kids only learn the basics of.
Same, and i'm still not completely convinced it isn't, thus my post. However...
I think we got a hint in this episode where Grisha is pretending to have translated ancient language to better rally the Restorationists (uh, not to mention the whole "raised first son from toddler-hood to become a double agent to fight for his cause, knowing that it could get his whole family killed, failed, gave superpowers to younger son without telling him, because that's a *much* better way to get your kid to fight for your cause!") Grisha Yaegar is up there with Genji ikari from Evangelion and Daigo from Dororo in the list of "anime dads risking their sons' lives for their own selfish reasons" in my mind.
There is a lot of really interesting parallelisms. I love the way you phrase it: It turns out that the entire world agrees with Eren Jaeger. And that worldview Eren holds may be the death of Eren and everyone he cares about. |
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Kirki
Posts: 296 |
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For the love of God, this is a story about WAR.
Everybody is making parallels as they see fit because almost every nation in this planet has a history of war. War is illogical by definition; it only makes sense when you look at it from a completely utilitarian perspective: "I'm hungry. The person next to me has food. I will go kill the person next to me and grab their food and this is how I will survive." This is how it is basically dumbed down. The problem comes when you need to persuade other people do the killing for you. That's when you use: "The person next to us is a bad person and deserves to be killed. Go kill him." And you can use absolutely anything to portray them as a bad person, usually them being different. Because they believe in a different God, because they have different laws or customs, because they simply have different anatomic characteristics. Different defies tradition, it defies order, change seems difficult and threatening. History is also written by the winners. If the Nazis had won back in WWII, society would probably look very different than what it is right now. Yet life would still go on, even so, one way or another. Genocides have been committed multiple times during the course of history, with the worse one being... oh right, AMERICA GOD BLESS. (Apparently God didn't bless the natives enough, how sad, offer some prayers) Atrocious war crimes have been committed, and are still being committed right now as we are talking about fictional stuff and worry how much they might offend whomever. Sometimes I think we live inside a pretty pink cloud, protected from all the horrors other people have to face. People are dying in Syria, Iraq, and other places so that you and I can sit behind a computer and hypocritically ponder about how much an armband should offend a previously oppressed group of people. Does it make you feel uncomfortable? It should be. The reason we do talk about fictional stuff is because there are things to be learnt through them without us having to experience them directly. Attack on Titan tells you that it is important to remember your history, (The name of the Queen is Historia! Come on!) albeit difficult, because history can be conveniently altered in order to fit political agendas. BUT, remembering your history is really an entirely different animal than blaming currently living people for crimes that have happened in the past. Some history has unfortunately been lost forever. Do you imagine where humanity would have been right now if the Library of Alexandria hadn't been burnt to the ground? The message is that every person born into this world deserves to be happy in it, no matter the circumstances surrounding their birth. Nitpicking armbands doesn't contribute - it's like focusing on a tree and missing the forest behind it. Instead of keeping a calm head and seeing the armbands for what they are - imagery famous and effective enough to make the audience do an immediate connection to political oppression without having to explain much, under the "show don't tell" principle - we keep talking against one another like we have to prove the other wrong as a matter of honor. Yes, controversy is trendy and catchy and all, but dragging this too far cheapens the essence of the series. |
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killjoy_the
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I think how the next episode is literally a name drop but also it's not the actual translation of the title (Attack Titan instead of Attack on Titan) perfectly encapsulates how everything we thought we knew about this series was pretty much wrong from the get-go.
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danpmss
Posts: 777 |
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Oh, that's one thing I would like to apologize in that case. I assumed you were the reviewer since your were arguably defending the very same points made. Sorry about that. The reviewers don't really have the same name in the forums after all, so I really never know, my mistake.
However, this is not the case. This is according to the post one of the claims some people were making about the content and spreading over the internet ever since these chapters came by in the manga, not necessarily you guys. I never accused you people of saying that, nor the poster. He is referring about a group of people who did and argued accordingly, and I am taking it as a reference to point out my own argument regarding why is it wrong to assume things the way it's been done be it both in here and in the review. Again, no strawman argument, and it doesn't at all argue against my argument. It was solely mentioning people who claimed this and why that post was an answer to those in case they were to come back with that mindset after the episode's release (which hopefully, wasn't the case, as mentioned by that same poster).
I mean, I'm here to discuss the anime, if people say something I really disagree with, I will of course respond to that criticism and engage in a debate. This isn't exactly the kind of assumption I would like to go by inconclusive about this particular work and subject, but I can't actually oblige you to continue. If you do wish to cease responding, it's fine. But I still will quote your future comments regarding this depending of what you say about it as the discussion progresses with my own counterarguments, so I hope you don't mind that. Last edited by danpmss on Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SheRrIs
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Why would referencing Holocaust cause controversy? Not rewriting the history, simply referencing some characteristics in a fictional setting? Is it because it happened in anime&manga - media that are considered 'pop culture'? I have a feeling few would protest if AoT was a book. |
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Angel of Blood
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Regarding names and ethnic backgrounds. Fritz is a very German name coming from old German which means 'ruler of peace'. So there is nothing Jewish about that. The name Armin is a German/Persian name which means Protector of the Aryans. He has blond hair, blue eyes, is intelligent and on top of that he is also a titan. Does that mean the Eldias represent the superior Aryan race who are being oppressed by the inferior Marley civilization? German names, the overall white population. Everything makes sense now! See what I did there?
I find it sad that after such a reveal in the story some people would focus on one single aspect that might be controversial for some, rather than seeing the bigger picture. To be honest I came here to ask if anybody else thought the titans in the walls might be a reference to the Golden Army from Hellboy, but instead I got caught in a political debate. Awareness of history is one thing, but there is a fine line between awareness and being oversensitive about political symbolism put into a vague context. Really, I wonder why no one here has accused the author of glorifying white supremacy yet because there is no black character in AoT. Last edited by Angel of Blood on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SheRrIs
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I, on the other hand, find it refreshing. There are plenty of works that present the narrative of 'those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it', but we hardly see the downsides of 'remembering history too well' in fiction. What if guilt on one hand and a sense of entitlement arising from victimhood on the other get passed down the generations? Will it backfire at some point? Can history prevent us from engaging with those we consider as 'others' or 'aggressors'? History can be used as a propaganda tool, even without it being altered in any way. This could have much more pronounced outcomes in societies that have subscribed to the collectivist, not the individualistic mindset. (Just thinking of that Chinese table tennis player who flooded his hotel room in Japan 'to take revenge on the Japanese for WWII' - I know it's random.) |
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ShatteredWorld
Posts: 265 Location: ATL |
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Exactly this. I just don't see how someone could look at the story of Attack on Titan and get from it (in full context) that the series is anti-semitic or fascist in nature. Hell, in the latest chapter of the manga alone, spoiler[we have Gabi realize that the people she's been calling Devil-blood or Devils have actually been real people, with real families and real siblings, one of which she killed in cold blood, continuing that cycle of hatred. She realizes this, finally, cries over the loss of a potential friendship and possibly being able to reconnect and apologize to Kaya. Then we have Gabi literally snatch off Falco's armband, a symbol of oppression in the series.] Context is always important, but unfortunately we exist in a world where hot takes and clout-chasing clickbait exists. So the nuance of the thing is ultimately lost. |
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whiskeyii
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Bolded for emphasis. But that right there is my biggest problem with Isayama's employment of the armbands: he's using it to highlight oppression, rather than the thing the Holocaust is most known for, which is genocide. To me that smacks of Isayama not really grasping what those armbands mean in a wider context--it'd be like someone arguing that the swastika can be used in its original Buddhist context. You absolutely *can* try that, but the rest of the world is gonna give you some serious side-eye because it's widely accepted as a Nazi symbol now, and no amount of declarations otherwise is going to help you reclaim such a deeply entrenched symbol. EDIT: To clarify, if this were in service of making some kind of commentary about the plight of the Jewish people or the Holocaust, I wouldn't mind so much. But the series seems to be deliberately sidestepping the whole genocide issue, so to me it comes off as cheap and/or misguided. Not malicious, per se, or at least not intentionally so, but definitely something Isayama should've spent more time Googling. Last edited by whiskeyii on Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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FackuIkari
Posts: 411 Location: Argentina |
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"Attack on titan is pro nazi" or whatever, yeah yeah, we went through this shit 3 years ago, what else is new
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2894 |
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I feel you man; I came here wanted to see people's reaciton of the plot being turned on it's head and instead I read about [expletive] armbands; funny thing because as a westerner (or are latin americans considered westerners?) I ahd not even heard of them until this topic. Another observation is that in other comunities people were not comparing the eldians to jews at all, but rather, calling them right wingers. I finalyl understood why ; while the westerners were being all self important about this being about jews, the asians got the message of the eldians being japanese instead. trapped in an island (paradise), pacifist government (king fritz) , after inading thier neighboors (japan vs korea/china wars); now I understand why the author made AoT so european, the landines he woudl have to avoid if it made the context asian would have blow off his legs. |
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