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EP. REVIEW: Attack on Titan


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Gem-Bug



Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Posts: 1293
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:07 pm Reply with quote
FormX wrote:
Nice episode 56 write up from James, honestly.
He considers the possible implications and both Western and Eastern perspectives. Too many people, manga readers included, have knee jerk reactions and the vast majority don't see the series from an Asian viewpoint.

As a manga reader since before the anime was announced, taking into account the story presented so far as of chapter 118, it is likely that Isayama used Jewish imagery without being fully aware of Western sensitivity.


I'm of two minds here because one one hand, I don't believe Mangaka necessarily have to have a Western audience in mind when creating a work, but on the other, Chapter 86 "That Day"(dealing with the next episode) was released in October 2016, when AoT hype was well established in the West.
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Doodleboy



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 296
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:29 pm Reply with quote
This episode is hard to talk about, because the first of a couple of shoes have been dropped (and the first shoe has already been mostly revealed by the anime before this).

I think there is a valuable discussion to be have on what Isayama is trying to do and how well his story works. There are things about the reveal that make me side-eye Isayama and there are things about the reveal I find incredibly effective at re-framing the story.

Most of the reveals are going to push the themes that have already been talked about in the previous episodes. Attack on Titan is very much a story about fascism, imperialism and demonizing the other. It's a story that takes heroic patriot narratives and undercuts them. But even after the reveals it's going to be a messy story in the same way it was messy before.
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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 777
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
So much of Attack on Titan's imagery and themes has been built around a brand of imperialism adopted by the Japanese in the First and Second World Wars that the series has long been scrutinized for straying into glorification of a sensitive history. (It caused no small amount of controversy for Hajime Isayama when it was revealed that Dot Pixis was modeled after a Japanese Naval Officer from WWI who perpetuated war crimes against other Asian nations, such as China and Korea.)


Et tu spreading this misinformation? Seriously now...

About the linked article:
1- Akiyama Yoshifuru (the character Dot Pixis was inspired in) wasn't even alive by the time WWII started (as for WWI, he had a big role in his participation in the Russo-Japanese war, which is mentioned as one of the conflicts that lead to it), he never took part on that, MUCH less was a Naval Officer.
2- Akiyama was a cavalry general to the Japanese Imperial Army during the Sino-Japanese war and the Russo-Japanese war, and was considered to be the father of modern cavalry in Japan.
3- The accusations about his war crimes in this whole "controversy" are quite the misinformations (especially the WWI/WWII part). The mistake comes by since people didn't know that Akiyama's first cavalry battalion attacked the Lüshunkou District (formely known as Port Arthur) during the Sino-Japanese war (causing around 37 fatalities) several days BEFORE a certain famous massacre by japanese troops named "Port Arthur Massacre". The war criminal they are trying to refer to in that case is instead Ōyama Iwao and his troops who attacked several days after, a completely different person (and one of the founders of the Japanese Imperial Army at that).

It's also very likely that Isayama just based Pixis on Akiyama's portrayal on the "Saka no Ue no Kumo" popular historical drama series aired in NHK back in 2009-2011, based on a novel by the same name, and not in his actual historical figure, even considering the characterization per se.

Please correct that before people take your word for granted as I already seen others do in this series' discussion in the site lately.


Last edited by danpmss on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FormX



Joined: 06 Oct 2016
Posts: 51
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:55 pm Reply with quote
Gem-Bug wrote:

I'm of two minds here because one one hand, I don't believe Mangaka necessarily have to have a Western audience in mind when creating a work, but on the other, Chapter 86 "That Day"(dealing with the next episode) was released in October 2016, when AoT hype was well established in the West.


Yes, what I meant was that based on the story as a whole and giving Isayama the benefit of the doubt, he that used the imagery for artistic purposes and as a historical example. On the other hand, for all the credit fans give to Isayama's research and planning, would he really have underestimated how some in the West might have reacted?

At the end of the day, the story still isn't finished yet. I do believe Isayama wrote this primarily for a Japanese audience, and we'll have to wait until then to see.
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Ethe





PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 pm Reply with quote
Gem-Bug wrote:
FormX wrote:
Nice episode 56 write up from James, honestly.
He considers the possible implications and both Western and Eastern perspectives. Too many people, manga readers included, have knee jerk reactions and the vast majority don't see the series from an Asian viewpoint.

As a manga reader since before the anime was announced, taking into account the story presented so far as of chapter 118, it is likely that Isayama used Jewish imagery without being fully aware of Western sensitivity.


I'm of two minds here because one one hand, I don't believe Mangaka necessarily have to have a Western audience in mind when creating a work, but on the other, Chapter 86 "That Day"(dealing with the next episode) was released in October 2016, when AoT hype was well established in the West.


It's important to take into account that the nature of these latest reveals had been foreshadowed since way back in the Female Titan and Clash of the Titans arcs, before the anime even came out. In other words, I think it's safe to say that Isayama already had the story set up to a certain degree, so it's not like he could just change it when AoT became popular in the West.

Nor would I want him to. You can't create art if you're constantly changing your story for fear of what the audience may think. I do believe the execution from here on out can be a little clunky and is worth criticising, and those who are not fans of the WWII imagery have all the right in the world to feel that way, but at the same time, it's clear to me that Isayama is coming from a good place and the message he's trying to deliver is a powerful one. The show has already proven that many times in the past, and will continue to do so.
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ShatteredWorld



Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 265
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:08 pm Reply with quote
pikabot wrote:
Quote:
After all of these years, I have faith that Isayama's story is building to a message that's more humanistic than “Soldiers Good, Foreigners Bad”.


I have bad news for you!


Uhh...read the manga much?

---

Anyway, I really commend James for continuing to show why he is a class act as a fan of storytelling and a reviewer. Rather than jumping to conclusions, waiting for the story to reveal its intentions bit by bit.

I can't spoil anything, but all I'll say is - as a black man in a modern America, if there's one type of story I would never be able to stand and abide by, it's something that handles subjects like discrimination or slavery awfully or like a piece of shock value (ala Shield Hero). Thankfully, I'm here to say that as far as manga go, Attack on Titan is one of the most mature takes on the cycle of hatred, discrimination and persecution, self-hatred and loathing and just about every other subject that you'd be surprised to see something like this tackle and stick the landing on.

Might be a little bold of me to say, but watch on James. I promise you won't be disappointed.
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pikabot



Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 169
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:16 pm Reply with quote
ShatteredWorld wrote:

Uhh...read the manga much?


I have. It's real bad.
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jdnation



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 2085
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 am Reply with quote
Quote:
With fascism on the rise all over the world


Hmmm? Tell us more. Who do you think are these 'fascists' and where are you seeing them? Anime catgrin

Since I've been reading ahead in the manga, all these problems people have have largely seemed to me to be a knee jerk reaction, and the loud ones tend to be the sort that don't want to see where the story is going for the greater full context.


Heck, the other problem is that many vocal detractors, I find refuse to take into account the actual situations the characters find themselves in. They seem to wonder why they characters don't act like or possess 21st century sensibilities - for example - running with a monarchy and military chain of command instead of being democratic and waving American flags.
please use tags for source material spoilers.
spoiler[
Everything makes sense in the story. And yeah there are obvious allusions and inspiration taken form real-world history - such as the Jews and the ghettos and anti-Semitism. But this story is NOT about the Jews in our world - it's about a particular sort of people - the Eldians. Which doesn't mean that Isayama wants to make some direct comparison to the Jews, any more than that The Survey Corps is a direct comparison to the U.S. Marines, or that the Titans are a direct comparison to the Greek Titans. This is a fantasy world. And if someone wants to twist some things around and change some things up for a more interesting story, then I personally have no problem with it, because, again, not all metaphors are necessarily directly meant to be a critique or exploration about the actual people or events they take inspiration from, especially considering the story is not set in the actual historical events in the actual real world.]


And frankly if anybody here is getting some message out of this that Isayama is trying to say anything that somehow reductively boils down to “Soldiers = Good, Foreigners = Bad”, I have to seriously, seriously... question whether you've even watched the whole anime, let alone read the manga. Particularly considering the amount of events that show corruption and breakdown and general villainy amongst many soldiers, and the background of characters such as Mikasa.
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ShatteredWorld



Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 265
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:21 am Reply with quote
pikabot wrote:
ShatteredWorld wrote:

Uhh...read the manga much?


I have. It's real bad.


I doubt that but it's fine if you think so.
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Kirki



Joined: 11 Jun 2019
Posts: 296
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 am Reply with quote
[quote="jdnation"]
Quote:

please use tags for source material spoilers.
spoiler[
Everything makes sense in the story. And yeah there are obvious allusions and inspiration taken form real-world history - such as the Jews and the ghettos and anti-Semitism. But this story is NOT about the Jews in our world - it's about a particular sort of people - the Eldians. Which doesn't mean that Isayama wants to make some direct comparison to the Jews, any more than that The Survey Corps is a direct comparison to the U.S. Marines, or that the Titans are a direct comparison to the Greek Titans. This is a fantasy world. And if someone wants to twist some things around and change some things up for a more interesting story, then I personally have no problem with it, because, again, not all metaphors are necessarily directly meant to be a critique or exploration about the actual people or events they take inspiration from, especially considering the story is not set in the actual historical events in the actual real world.]




There are no source material spoilers in the above post. If the problem is a certain name, you could have just blacked out one sentence or two. It really makes me wonder why the person responsible felt the need to black out everything. Also, I agree with everything written in it.

The review seemed to me more like the reviewer has read some vague bad things about this story and he desperately tried to make a connection in this episode, without having almost any relatable information. He has assumed a ton of things wrong that he currently, as an anime viewer, has no way of knowing, and I think that this is really unfair to the series and the writer. Saying in the end "oh but ok let's see how it goes", doesn't make it any better. Indirectly accusing the writer of supporting fascism because you saw some WWII imagery, and because you heard some rumors over the internet is really just that: Unfair. Even if he mentions that he might be wrong in his assumptions, he has already pre-desposed the audience negatively against this story, and there was literally not a single reason to do so, especially at this point.

Also, the term "thematically appropriate" seems quite problematic. I really don't know what he means by that, because I thought that any story can feature any theme, as long as it is done tastefully. The fact that some stories feature unpleasant themes does not mean that the writer has the intention of agreeing with those practices.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4430
Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:30 am Reply with quote
Ethe wrote:
jr240483 wrote:

considering on how long this part of the arc was in the manga, 10-12 eps might not be enough to cover every part of it so they might have to skip some parts. sure not the very important ones, but definitely some stuff that tends to drive some of the manga pursuits in a massive tizzy fit!


This arc is indeed long, but you have to remember that it's also very action-heavy. Action scenes usually take up a lot of space in manga, but once they're animated, they go by way quicker than dialogue-heavy scenes. In other words, when adapting arcs like this, you can cover larger chunks of the story in one episode.

Also, spoiler[by the time they reach the basement in either episode 6 or 7, they'll easily be able to adapt the lore-drop that comes after. 2-3 episodes are enough to cover Grisha's backstory]


but that is what i mean and is what some people disliked about the first part on season three! it skipped most of the dialogue parts and focused on the action heavy parts that it more or less had those manga pursuits pulling their hairs out of their heads!

god knows how they react if they decide to do this again for the marleyin arc (im sure im spelling it right) cause the way how THAT arc is, its definitely gonna need more than 12 eps!
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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 777
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:15 am Reply with quote
jr240483 wrote:
Ethe wrote:
jr240483 wrote:

considering on how long this part of the arc was in the manga, 10-12 eps might not be enough to cover every part of it so they might have to skip some parts. sure not the very important ones, but definitely some stuff that tends to drive some of the manga pursuits in a massive tizzy fit!


This arc is indeed long, but you have to remember that it's also very action-heavy. Action scenes usually take up a lot of space in manga, but once they're animated, they go by way quicker than dialogue-heavy scenes. In other words, when adapting arcs like this, you can cover larger chunks of the story in one episode.

Also, spoiler[by the time they reach the basement in either episode 6 or 7, they'll easily be able to adapt the lore-drop that comes after. 2-3 episodes are enough to cover Grisha's backstory]

but that is what i mean and is what some people disliked about the first part on season three! it skipped most of the dialogue parts and focused on the action heavy parts that it more or less had those manga pursuits pulling their hairs out of their heads!

god knows how they react if they decide to do this again for the marleyin arc (im sure im spelling it right) cause the way how THAT arc is, its definitely gonna need more than 12 eps!


I think Marley arc can be handled really well in 12-13 episodes.
The streak of episodes after the espectacular point of no return in spoiler[chapter 100 ] can be adapted in likely the same pace Part 2 adapted its action heavy part. The important thing is for them to take their time with all of the build up in the first segment of the arc spoiler[aka before the declaration of war epic panel].

As for the last arc, I'm pretty sure it will end up needing 2 cours to close everything, if expectations are met and it indeed ends in two or so years.

__________________________________


Now, about this episode just released:

They handled these information heavy chapters so well.

I really thought for a second it would be a rushed mess from the point it was announced they would be covering two chapters per episode for these next two (and the last one being chapter 90 only).

Happy to see that my worries were all for naught, yet another stellar episode handling the reveals really nicely <3
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ShatteredWorld



Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 265
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:09 am Reply with quote
Another incredible episode. Surprised by the amount of still shots, but it all worked out in the end + carried by an amazing score and voice work
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Lord Dcast



Joined: 07 Nov 2014
Posts: 644
Location: 'Straiya
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Christ, did my eyes deceive me or was spoiler[the descendant of the Royal Family the same titan who killed Eren's mum]? If that's true, bloody hell...
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Lord Dcast wrote:
Christ, did my eyes deceive me or was spoiler[the descendant of the Royal Family the same titan who killed Eren's mum]? If that's true, bloody hell...

Yep. First wife ate second wife, and son of second wife indirectly killed first wife, but only after eating his dad. Not a world I'd want to live in.
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