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Last edited by Spawn29 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Jose Cruz wrote:

There is no comic/animation Western equivalent to manga.

Yeah there is. Marvel and DC superheroes are mostly aim to kids and teens like Batman, Superman, The Avengers, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, etc expect for their graphic novels (Killing Joke, etc). American comic books like Watchmen, Preacher, Y: The Last Man, Transmetropolitan, Spawn, The Punisher, Faust, Sandman, The Walking Dead and many others are the American comic book equivalent of Seinen manga due to their mature themes and content (They are aim to adults too)

For American animated shows, Rick & Morty, HBO's Spawn, The Boondocks, Aeon Flux and BoJack Horseman are probably the closet thing to Seinen anime. While American cartoons like Avatar: The Last Airbender, Ben 10, Gargoyles, Teen Titans, Batman: The Animated Series and several others are pretty much the American cartoon equivalent to Shonen anime.

Jose Cruz wrote:

While shounen and shoujo manga usually have it's biggest demographic target at teenagers and not children under the age of 13. To Love Ru is not remotely targeted at the same public as Dexter's Laboratory: the first is aimed at horny teenagers while the other is aimed at children. The closest Western equivalent to To Love Ru would be a teen movie like American Pie.

It was reported that most Shonen Jump readers are under 14.

animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-23/manga-mags-demographics-circulation-numbers-posted

I think people don't want to admit that they enjoy reading and watching anime and manga for young boys (And yet they are open to enjoying kids stuff like Toy Story). DBZ and One Piece even have happy meal toys and other children merchandise sold to them (Stuff aim to teens and adults never do have children's merchandise expect back in the 80's and 90's). Dragon Ball Super is even aim to kids that like stuff like Kamen Rider since they both air on Sunday Mornings, are from Toei and have children's merchandise.

I feel like pretty obvious that shows and manga like Dragon Ball, Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece and Black Clover are made for Japanese children in mind.

Spawn29 wrote:

Yeah there is. Marvel and DC superheroes are mostly aim to kids and teens like Batman, Superman, The Avengers, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, etc expect for their graphic novels (Killing Joke, etc). American comic books like Watchmen, Preacher, Y: The Last Man, Transmetropolitan, Spawn, The Punisher, Faust, Sandman and many others are the American comic book equivalent of Seinen manga due to their mature themes and content (They are aim to adults too)

The US comic book industry is not really aimed at kids and hasn't been for decades. It is also very politically correct and a socialist was hired to write GI Joe until he got fired for making negative comments about remembering terrorist attacks on 9/11. To say the least the US comic book industry has gone overboard on the propaganda and even China has realized that most people want entertaining stories. I read a range of manga from Bloom into You to The Rising of the Shield Hero and there is a reason that manga is starting to sell better than comic books even in the United States.

Spawn29 wrote:

For American animated shows, Rick & Morty, HBO's Spawn, The Boondocks, Aeon Flux and BoJack Horseman are probably the closet thing to Seinen anime. While American cartoons like Avatar: The Last Airbender, Ben 10, Gargoyles, Adventure Time, Batman: The Animated Series and several others are pretty much the American cartoon equivalent to Shonen anime.

I am a fan of Gargoyles but that ended more than 20 years ago. If you limit it to the past 3 years the list of animated TV shows made for adults decreases greatly and most of them would be adult comedies such as Archer, BoJack Horseman, and Rick & Morty. I wish that animated TV shows were doing better in the western world but the current state of the industry can be summed up with the words Teen Titans Go.

Spawn29 wrote:

I feel like pretty obvious that shows and manga like Dragon Ball, Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece and Black Clover are made for Japanese children in mind.

That is their target audience but they can have elaborate story arcs that can last dozens of episodes. There is nothing comparable to that in the western world that isn't made by Netflix.

relyat08 wrote:

When I watch something like Karakai Jouzu no Takagi-san, and see Takagi's crush be so embarrassed to be seen reading a shoujo romance manga that he lies pathetically about it, even though no one else cares, it's a little frustrating.

The thing about Takagi-san is that most of Nishikata's problems are a result of him being a bit too insecure and easily embarrassed. Most of Takagi's teasing would have no effect or just would not happen if Nishikata just said "yeah I was reading 100% Unrequited Love/shouting at the typhoon/running into a telephone pole, what of it?". It's exaggerated for the purposes of comedy, but that is the basic reality of an overly self-conscious boy in middle school.

rizuchan wrote:

I find the distinctions less useful for action shows, but more useful for romance... There's a pretty big difference between shoujo romance and dating sim spin-offs.

Not that splitting romance shows into "for girls" or "for boys" is perfect, by any means. I remember seeing tons of guys on reddit getting wrapped up in Kimi ni Todoke or My Love Story and going "Why is this so different from most anime romance??" (Because it's shoujo), and an equal number of girls amazed that Clannad was written for guys. And then you have seinen romance which could resemble any of the above.

Rather, there can be some pretty big differences between romance titles aimed at boys/men and those aimed at girls/women. There's just no good way of broadly classifying them that usefully tells you if a series is of any interest or not; any conceivable way to classify them will wind up giving something any given fan likes a category label that they wouldn't otherwise give the time of day.

And there is still some use in the distinction for action titles, even bloody ones; CLAMP do it very differently from Miura Kentarou, for instance. But for both romance and action titles, it should only ever be taken as a general guide to what the content's like, rather than a strict advisory on who should read/watch it.

Aquasakura wrote:

MetalEmolga wrote:

I always find it funny when guy's who have only watched shonen/seinen anime act shocked when they watch a shojo/josei series for the first time. Like when dudes were confused that Card Captors Clear Card, a show made for young girls, didn't have tons of sexualized fanserviece.

That is so odd. Men assuming that a show clearly aim for girls in their mid childhood would have sexual content. It's so odd because it's unheard of to me. I get that up until now they have only watch shows aim for males, but come on. Really?

Many seem to assume, for one reason or another, that anime is all aimed at adult men, so get a bit of shock when they see something that actually and obviously isn't. They're not shocked that the show aimed at young girls doesn't have lots of T&A, they're shocked that the show turns out to be aimed at young girls. That men assume that everything is made for them is not odd, because it's so bloody common in general, but it is stupid and self-centered.

Spawn29 wrote:

Yeah there is. Marvel and DC superheroes are mostly aim to kids and teens like Batman, Superman, The Avengers, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, etc expect for their graphic novels (Killing Joke, etc). American comic books like Watchmen, Preacher, Y: The Last Man, Transmetropolitan, Spawn, The Punisher, Faust, Sandman and many others are the American comic book equivalent of Seinen manga due to their mature themes and content (They are aim to adults too)

The main problem with the comics comparison is comics sell an average of 30,000 here. Just a bit less mainstream than the millions a manga can sell in Japan, even with a fraction of the population. Comics are in no way mainstream like manga is in Japan. They're a niche.

Quote:

I feel like pretty obvious that shows and manga like Dragon Ball, Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece and Black Clover are made for Japanese children in mind.

Of course they are. I've always laughed how ADULT Swim is riddled with children's shows. Main difference is, shounen is like superhero movies here. Huge, everyone loves them, despite the fact they're for kids and made to sell toys (go get your T'Challa battle bike toy with magic armor, in stores now kids!)

Stuff like Adventure Time isn't. Adult fans for CN stuff are the minority, and if you say to a random co-worker how much you love Cartoon Network they'll look at you funny. If you tell them you loved the latest Marvel movie, they'll be more accepting and agree usually. Yeah, they're both for young boys, but one is far more acceptable to admit to liking.

Lord Oink wrote:

Main difference is, shounen is like superhero movies here. Huge, everyone loves them, despite the fact they're for kids and made to sell toys (go get your T'Challa battle bike toy with magic armor, in stores now kids!)

Stuff like Adventure Time isn't. Adult fans for CN stuff are the minority, and if you say to a random co-worker how much you love Cartoon Network they'll look at you funny. If you tell them you loved the latest Marvel movie, they'll be more accepting and agree usually. Yeah, they're both for young boys, but one is far more acceptable to admit to liking.

I dunno, it feels to me more like the Marvel movies are very carefully targeted roughly equally at both kids and adults. Making it for adults isn't incompatible with making it to sell toys, incidentally; it's sure as hell not kids snapping up all the Hot Toys figures.

DC, on the other hand, seem to be making them primarily for adults.

bigivel wrote:

Note:
Teen novels
For boys: Harry Potter(shounen)
For girls: Twighlight(shoujo)
Young adult novels
For boys: The Da Vinci Code(Seinen)
For Girls: 50 shades of Grey(Josei)

GROSS. NO. Twisted Evil

You can't come up with anything better than that GARBAGE for female readers!?

Harry Potter is not geared to boys. It's for any gender but there are WAY more female fans than male ones, you can bet on it.

Lord Oink wrote:

I've always laughed how ADULT Swim is riddled with children's shows.

Uh such as what? You surely realize what's considered acceptable to show kids varies from country to country...........right? Zooming in on a female character's giant bouncing breasts may be a common practice for shounen targeted at eight-year-old boys but in America? For a "childrens' show", that is unthinkable.

So why laugh? This is about cultural differences and it's for good reason.

Chiibi wrote:

bigivel wrote:

Note:
Teen novels
For boys: Harry Potter(shounen)
For girls: Twighlight(shoujo)
Young adult novels
For boys: The Da Vinci Code(Seinen)
For Girls: 50 shades of Grey(Josei)

GROSS. NO. Twisted Evil

You can't come up with anything better than that GARBAGE for female readers!?

Harry Potter is not geared to boys. It's for any gender but there are WAY more female fans than male ones, you can bet on it.

Lord Oink wrote:

I've always laughed how ADULT Swim is riddled with children's shows.

Uh such as what? You surely realize what's considered acceptable to show kids varies from country to country...........right? Zooming in on a female character's giant bouncing breasts may be a common practice for shounen targeted at eight-year-old boys but in America? For a "childrens' show", that is unthinkable.

So why laugh? This is about cultural differences and it's for good reason.

"not geared to ... " is different to "way more... Fans". This is the basic target vs hit audience error/misconception.

Target - > creator of the work intent.
Hit - > actual result with the audience.

If you look at two countries, example, USA and Canada, and your work in america is dominated by male fans, while in Canada by female fans, what is the target audience? Male, Female, both, unknown?

Speaking of shounen and seinen, objectionable content wise the differences between them, particularly regarding on sexual content and also the amount of blood n' gore, is about as little as it gets at best, paper thin at worst.

Violence wise, some action shounen with dark ambience like Death Note, Shigurui and Attack on Titan would be classified as seinen in the West if possible, the reverse can be said for series like Needless, Taboo Tattoo and Bungo Stray Dogs.

Sexual content wise, nowadays shounen manga can still show nipples in magazines that allow to, while seinen manga can have without, like Kiss x Sis or New Game!.

What made me wonder is why some shounen magazines doesn't let nipples be thrown in shounen manga? Is it because it would be harmful to young readers?

TarutoClown93 wrote:

Speaking of shounen and seinen, objectionable content wise the differences between them, particularly regarding on sexual content and also the amount of blood n' gore, is about as little as it gets at best, paper thin at worst.

Violence wise, some action shounen with dark ambience like Death Note, Shigurui and Attack on Titan would be classified as seinen in the West if possible, the reverse can be said for series like Needless, Taboo Tattoo and Bungo Stray Dogs.

Sexual content wise, nowadays shounen manga can still show nipples in magazines that allow to, while seinen manga can have without, like Kiss x Sis or New Game!.

What made me wonder is why some shounen magazines doesn't let nipples be thrown in shounen manga? Is it because it would be harmful to young readers?

While I could understand what you're talking about, when you talk about the content of shonen vs Seinen. Note that they are not defined by content. You can make any kind of content in any kind of Magazine for any kind of Audience and in any tme, that doesn't define in any way nor manner the Demographic.
Next decade Shounen can turn way more violent, and Seinen way more Romantic, and they will still be pure Shounen and pure Seinen. Why? Is not about Content!

Why some adults love porn and others adults think it is horrible? The answer to that question is the same of your above. Magazines are an entity, and as entities each of them have their unique personality and reactions to things.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

Rather, there can be some pretty big differences between romance titles aimed at boys/men and those aimed at girls/women. There's just no good way of broadly classifying them that usefully tells you if a series is of any interest or not; any conceivable way to classify them will wind up giving something any given fan likes a category label that they wouldn't otherwise give the time of day.

The idea that categorization shouldn't exist because people might go along with it seems strange to me since it is just a word attached to it. The demographic police don't magically appear to arrest you if you buy manga of the "wrong" demographic. The problem isn't with categories it is with the mentality that they are absolutes and it would make more sense to change that mentality than trying to get rid of categories.

Jose Cruz wrote:

To Love Ru is not remotely targeted at the same public as Dexter's Laboratory: the first is aimed at horny teenagers while the other is aimed at children. The closest Western equivalent to To Love Ru would be a teen movie like American Pie.

Well Japan standers what is okay for kids is different than the US. If Johnny Bravo was made in Japan, it would have more dirty humor and something like Danny Phantom would probably be more darker and violent if it was made in Japan.

Quote:

Violence wise, some action shounen with dark ambience like Death Note, Shigurui and Attack on Titan would be classified as seinen in the West if possible, the reverse can be said for series like Needless, Taboo Tattoo and Bungo Stray Dogs.

Death Note does feel like a series for a younger audience when you compare it to something like Monster. Sure it's more serious than something like Naruto, but the themes and characters appeal more to a younger audience. The same can be said for 70's manga how Devilman is a Shonen with more graphic content than something like Lupin the Third which is Seinen.

Chrono1000 wrote:

The idea that categorization shouldn't exist because people might go along with it seems strange to me since it is just a word attached to it. The demographic police don't magically appear to arrest you if you buy manga of the "wrong" demographic. The problem isn't with categories it is with the mentality that they are absolutes and it would make more sense to change that mentality than trying to get rid of categories.

If that mentality weren't there, demographic labels would rarely be relevant.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

I dunno, it feels to me more like the Marvel movies are very carefully targeted roughly equally at both kids and adults. Making it for adults isn't incompatible with making it to sell toys, incidentally; it's sure as hell not kids snapping up all the Hot Toys figures.

Marvel seems content on straddling the PG line with their movies. It's certainly not like the old days where you had kids toys and video games of R rated movies like Rambo or Toxic Avenger.

Chiibi wrote:

So why laugh? This is about cultural differences and it's for good reason.

I know its cultural difference, but these are still kids shows. Seeing a commercial for Dragonball or One Piece happy meal toys during the commercials as fans argue to the death how these are shows for adults just make me laugh, like bronies who say they were the target audience for MLP and not little girls. Obviously its a insecurity issue, but just be amazed at what passes for a kids show in Japan. Just the idea even a show like Pokemon would have to air on Adult Swim if it was uncensored amuses me, is all.

Lord Oink wrote:

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

I dunno, it feels to me more like the Marvel movies are very carefully targeted roughly equally at both kids and adults. Making it for adults isn't incompatible with making it to sell toys, incidentally; it's sure as hell not kids snapping up all the Hot Toys figures.

Marvel seems content on straddling the PG line with their movies. It's certainly not like the old days where you had kids toys and video games of R rated movies like Rambo or Toxic Avenger.

Chiibi wrote:

So why laugh? This is about cultural differences and it's for good reason.

I know its cultural difference, but these are still kids shows. Seeing a commercial for Dragonball or One Piece happy meal toys during the commercials as fans argue to the death how these are shows for adults just make me laugh, like bronies who say they were the target audience for MLP and not little girls. Obviously its a insecurity issue, but just be amazed at what passes for a kids show in Japan. Just the idea even a show like Pokemon would have to air on Adult Swim if it was uncensored amuses me, is all.

Important to note that you're talking of two different things.

The manga and the anime ADAPTATION of those mangas. An Adaptation is another product, one that is based in the original, so it has new "creators" and a new target Audience.

Also all the "merchandize" from those series are also other products and so they can also have differents target audiences.

You're basically confusing everything, and saying that if you have one thing that targets one specific demographic then all the rest also have to target that demographic. That is obviously totally wrong.
What if One Piece had a collection of "perverted" figurines of the females characters, targeted at Adults Men(Seinen), would that make all the rest of One Piece stuff Seinen? Would that make the Happy Meal with One Piece not for kids, but for Adults? Well, one thing is true, One Piece indeed has those figurines!

Yuvelir wrote:

Chrono1000 wrote:

The idea that categorization shouldn't exist because people might go along with it seems strange to me since it is just a word attached to it. The demographic police don't magically appear to arrest you if you buy manga of the "wrong" demographic. The problem isn't with categories it is with the mentality that they are absolutes and it would make more sense to change that mentality than trying to get rid of categories.

If that mentality weren't there, demographic labels would rarely be relevant.

What you define by relevant?
what would a series classification need to be relevant in your eyes?

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