Forum - View topicAnswerman - Are Streaming Revenues Improving The Lives Of Animators?
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MarshalBanana
 Posts: 5514 |
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The confusion seems to lie in that people forget/don't know, that animators are paid to make the product, at which point their involvement ends. The money CR, Sentai, Funi, Viz etc pay goes to the people who paid to make the product.
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Crext
 Posts: 211 |
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I see, so it's a classical case of oligopoly conditions. In other words a few companies have received an "understanding" between themselves, with very little competition.
If all of this is true, then it should only be a matter of time until some alpha dog investor swallows the industry and creates a lasting competitive advantage by soaking up all the best talent. As a matter of fact it is astonishing it hasn't happened already. There has to be more to it than this... Last edited by Crext on Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tenebrae
Posts: 490 |
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And I guess it might also happen that all the Japanse major players could come to an "understanding" that big tv networks will be unable to air those shows due to "various circumstances." |
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Paulo27
Posts: 400 |
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Yep, people see big numbers and think it's all sunshines and rainbows, the reality is that more money in the industry will only mean more anime is able to be produced and not necessarily better working conditions or even better anime in general, because while those latter two points can contribute to the success of a show, the current strategy seems to be to just put out as much anime as possible and see what sticks and milk that. But hey, Japan is having animators shortages, maybe it'll get to a point where animators are so overloaded that their pay simply has to go up if studios want to keep producing anime.
Netflix is an interesting player and from the original shows they are releasing soon I'd say they certainly know their audience at least (as in, a more global one) but they are still a business and I'd bet if they can get something for cheaper they'll do it if they are allowed, realistically speaking, I don't think much is going to change either even if Netflix took over half the industry. It's actually really interesting the more I think about it though because if Netflix actually started making a lot of stuff and stealing staff from everywhere, we could potentially even be looking at a few studios going bankrupt (or simply bending to Netflix's will) because they simply wouldn't have the money to compete if Netflix really wanted. I think the idea of animator salaries going up from that is still a few years away though. Last edited by Paulo27 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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#861208
Posts: 423 |
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Things people never seem to talk about when they talk about this issue:
(Besides the fact that the animators aren't the only hard-working creative artists involved in anime production - the writers (individual episode writers, not just series composition), the voice actors, directors, engineers; the music composers and the musicians; etc. ) - If all the animation studios are "booked for years", someone could start a new studio and employ more animators. - If the price per episode is standardized, if technology makes it so that fewer expenses are involved in making a show, including fewer staff members, each person in the studio would get a bigger slice of that pie, since there would be bigger slices. And then the people who have more time from one project can take on another, or they can also go start a new/spin-off studio. But if the amount of shows has already saturated the market... the key is to expand the market. - Opening up new demographics for anime - and not just in terms of geographic country. The same shonen shows get to be the most popular - why not focus on raising awareness among people who don't like that genre, that anime has more to offer than just that? I've been saying this for years, though... But if that last point is accomplished, there can be a bigger market for more shows, for more studios = more pies, so that everyone involved can get a bigger slice, while still having enough slices to go around. And people can finally get paid to make something other than shonen. There are so many amazing possibilities for stories and art in the world, and I think anime is the best medium, the medium with the most potential, for doing things with those stories. The key is to make other people see that. Anime is already more interesting and varied than live action, but it's barely scratched the surface of its potential, while live action has almost exhausted its potential.
You're confusing "studios" (the ones that make things) with "producers" (the ones who hire the studios to make things). The studios don't pay money; they get paid (and then pay their employees out of that sum, after covering materials, rent, etc.) The ones who won't have the budget to compete with Netflix are the production committee members - AFAIK, generally representatives of corporations, that aren't necessarily looking to make their money back, as much as, to get something else out of the production - tie-ins, merch makers, a record label placing their songs in the anime, etc. That's pretty much the stir-up everyone's arguing over: whether Netflix (and others) will do the job better or worse than the production committees, and what the production committees (and other industry old-timers) can do if the answer turns out to be "worse". |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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One thing people need to understand is that the anime industry (pretty much ANY entertainment industry really) is a "hit" driven business. It's like video games, you hear about the millions raked in by the big hit, and then ignore the MANY titles that take huge losses. It's easy to say "Attack on Titan" made X million dollars, but what about the 20 other titles that lost tens or hundreds of thousands. The question becomes what KIND of "job" do you WANT. Do you want to have 1 year where you make $500k because X title did really well, followed by 5 years where you work for free or even pay to produce a title that no one buys?
As a software dev, I HATE the sales staff. They always over-promise and leave us with customers with unreasonable demands. But I realized a LONG time ago that I don't want their job. I don't want to convince other people to give me money for something they may not need or even want. Yeah, there's fat-cats rolling in more money than they deserve, as is true in any business (anything and everything can and will be abused). But if animators aren't being paid enough their best "fix" is to produce their own content that they own and can profit from. The real problem is everyone wants all of the "reward" with none of the "risk". Game companies go under ALL THE TIME, because when the hits dry up, you bleed money in a hurry. If you aren't careful with the millions from your one hit, you're in debt (and worse off than before you had the hit). I'm sure anime companies are the same way. Animators are insanely talented and SHOULD be well compensated for their efforts, but there's a lot of complications in the structure that should be considered. It's not as simple as "all funds should be dispersed evenly". Heck, this is a higher level variation on how gacha machines work. You can find toys that dispense randomly for 500 yen. The ones everyone hates (or that no one except completionist collectors want) you can find for sale in Akiba for 100 - 200 yen in resale shops. And the Most popular ones sell for 1000 yen or more. How stable and "generous" your studio can be is based on how often you pull those "premiums". |
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Яeverse
 Posts: 1146 Location: Indianapolis |
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So many shows have so many people in the credits. I dont know how itd be possible to ever make enough money to fairly pay everyone when it doesnt appear animes are making that much money.
At the end of the day if people want a fair wage in animation it doesnt appear jpn anime is the place to be. |
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Chrono1000
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Netflix getting involved in anime is unlikely to change the anime industry because they will pay the same rate anyone else would. Based on the quality of their original animation shows for kids I get the impression that outside of a few headline projects they usually go for quantity. Still by the end of the year if that is how it will go with their original anime productions
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6902 Location: Kazune City |
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We can expect this column to be used as fodder by the anti-industry crowd, who like to seize on "the animators don't get paid enough if I subscribe to streaming sites / buy discs, it all goes to corporate fat cats" as an excuse to pirate. Though it's nothing but crocodile tears, as they don't have a problem with (A) exploiting those animators for their own entertainment, and (B) bootleg streaming sites extracting immense profits from animators' work. I guess they're fine with animators being underpaid, as long as they get free stuff for themselves in the process
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MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
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Who exactly has said anything about why we should pirate in this thread? yours seems like a complain that came out of nowhere Personally I think the issue with animators´ wages lies in themselves, and their own lack of emotional intelligence, any self respecting person wouldn't take a job that doesn't pay a living wage specially when entry level non-qualified jobs offer better. as citizens of a industrialized country they do have options, they just choose to keep working under unfavorable conditions. if anything they should let the industry short staffed in order to force their labor's value higher. or do you guys think workers of any other industry wouldn't be paid less if they didn't stand their ground and allow so? |
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Banjo
Posts: 798 |
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As a newbie manga artist I understand how do those animators feel a little, simply animators are people who like to see their art move and they are proud to be part of animating a famous show.. it doesn't matter how much they get paid for as long as they key animate their favorite stuff.. money comes after.. artists at that level could make more money if they publish their own manga, working as assistance, teaching lessons, creating how to draw books, designing characters..
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Actar
 Posts: 1074 Location: Singapore |
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Yup, the industry exploits people who work because they are passionate. Essentially, animation itself is still not viewed as a "respectable" job. Think about it, while animators are arguably the most important to the creation of anime, animators are the people who get the least recognition. We have voice actors, directors and writers, but hardly anyone outside the hardcore otaku actually cares about the people who draw the individual frames. Also, I would like to add that it was never about the amount of money (or lack thereof) creating these kinds of working conditions for animators. The anime industry has always had millions and millions of dollars in revenue when it comes to merchandise and concerts and the like. Otaku do spend a crazy amount of money. It's just that the animators don't see much, if any, of the money. |
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Mune
Posts: 383 Location: Minnesota |
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The way I look at this is that there are quite a few shows on legal streaming sites. However, Crunchyroll has a very large catalog compared to that of Netflix, which has many more subscribers.
Assuming that the average show is only 12 episodes long, There are over 800 series. That means 12*800 and multiplied by the lowest cost that is claimed per episode ($320,000) and reducing that by 50% due to some of the shows being made more than a decade ago. We can calculate $160,000 x 12 x 800 = $1,536,000,000. So, when they claimed that it had gained the anime industry $100 million, that's less than 20% of the overall cost to make them. To recoup the cost at their subscription rate of $5.95, they would need 258,151,261 paying subscribers for a month or just over 21.5 million paying subscribers for a year. If calculating for just one show, of 12 episodes ($160,000*12=$1,920,000), which airs over the course of 3 months, the viewer base should be about 107,564 viewers to make up that cost. Mind you, this is just for recouping costs based on anime streaming alone. There are of course other methods of recouping the costs like through physical distribution, merchandise, toys, and a few others, which I won't go through here. The fact of the matter is that anime streaming doesn't even cover 20% of the costs it takes to make. The fans that support anime beyond just watching it are what is really driving the industry. What streaming is doing is increasing exposure, which will hopefully drive those other sales that make up the remaining 80+%. I really do hope the animators' lives are improving because of the increase in exposure. However, streaming revenues are not really improving their lives on their own. |
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Angel M Cazares
 Posts: 5507 Location: Iscandar |
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Netflix's involvement in anime is interesting and potentially very exciting if more great stuff like Devilman Crybaby keeps showing up. There are a lot of question about how Netflix may impact the anime industry in the long run, but I want to be positive in hoping to see quality anime produced by them, and that the money they spend will reach the creators and staffers struggling with low wagers.
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2483 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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At Crunchyroll Expo last summer, they had a session for premium subscribers only that pointed out something about their finances that I thought was really interesting. They said that your monthly subscription (minus whatever costs Crunchyroll takes for itself) is paid proportionately to the shows you watch. I would have assumed that payouts are simply based on what gets watched overall, but this seems to imply that it's paid out on a per-viewer basis. Meaning that if I never watch Naruto, none of my money goes to Naruto, and if I only watch Pop Team Epic, then all of my money goes to Popuko and Pipimi. |
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