Forum - View topicHow Yuki Yuna is a Hero Challenges Madoka Magica's Legacy
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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I never really got into Yuki Yuna when the first season aired, mostly because by that point PonyCanyon had been pretty up-front about how much the Blu-ray release was going to cost. The series also had the misfortune of coming out between Wixoss's first two seasons... I wasn't really interested in getting into yet another Madoka-esque show after finally finding one that didn't ultimately disappoint me. Now, with all the debate over whether the first season had a terrible ending or not, it seems like the time to give this franchise another try has passed me by.
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Yttrbio
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The worst consequence of the Madoka legacy is that people are no longer allowed to create fun or exciting magical girl shows without being berated for failing to center them around some subversive philosophy. For all of Madoka's qualities, things like 'soul' or 'fun' aren't any of them, and it seems strange to complain when a show decides that philosohical musings aren't really the goal of the show. At the end of the day, I never really cared what Urobuchi thought. He may be talented, but he's still just some guy when it comes to outlook on life. A show that decides that its driving force should be the show's characters and setting, and not the writer's beliefs, is not "falling short," it's doing something else.
(I liked Madoka and found YYY's ending to be a lame copout in an otherwise great show, but the constant efforts to think of it as a Madoka show got tiring) |
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Artesox
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Ah, there it is. We already had people attributing tropes that predate Madoka by decades to Madoka, so it was only a question of time before the "silly opinion" bingo was complete with the classic "Madoka Killed the Magical Girl Genre." Despite, you know. Madoka having never out-profited the behemoth that is Precure. Or the fact nobody mixes the stuff that airs past midnight in Japan with the stuff that airs in the morning. Or the fact most dark magical girls have not made a profit, YuYuYu being the only post-madoka one that didn't flop? The fact there has have been more bright late-night MS lately than there were in the 2000s? Or how its absurd to call the death of any character "a hateful thing" as clearly there are countless examples of media that kill off characters without receiving that tag, etc, etc.
YuYuYu seems to only be really trashed about in western forums, such as here and MAL, and in youtube reviews. On places like 4chan and Reddit it has its niche fanbase, and in Japan it has been doing well and will likely be third or fourth in BD sales this season. It's really a mystery why this divide happens! It is surely not a question of good taste, because MAL and Youtubers are not famous for that at all. It is not also a question of having knowledge about the magical girl genre, because Japanese anime fans have a far more consolidated tradition with magical girl shows while the western side barely knows stuff like Precure and think the genre started with Sailor Moon. I heard the key to this mystery rhymes with the word contentious. |
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vonPeterhof
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I also felt like the s1 ending was a major copout, but FWIW the second season has actually addressed a lot of the specific issues people had with that ending (the largely unexplained cause and effect relations, the seeming thematic incongruence of the outcome, the near lack of consequences for a certain character's, um, questionable decisions, etc.) by gradually revealing that it wasn't quite the reset it seemed to be (while building up on stuff foreshadowed in the first season and without even retconning anything!). I understand that that's still too little too late for some viewers, and the season is yet to deliver a finale, but I'm genuinely interested in where they're leading to this time.
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meiam
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That would only make it worse, by just canceling all consequence it makes all the hell they went trough irrelevant and makes the entire show seems whimsical. |
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anton.barbieri
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No it doesn't, it's because of all the hell they went through is why they were allowed to have what they sacrificed back! Because even though they lost functions and were becoming more mentally unstable, they still persevered through it all and eventually defeated what they were tasked with defeating. That's why they're all true hero's and that's why they were allowed their sacrifices to be returned to them. |
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killjoy_the
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Am I allowed to enjoy both shows and think neither is a masterpiece or is that forbidden?
I think visually there's very little that comes close to Madoka, but I felt extremely cold towards the whole cast but one girl, so my enjoyment was limited. I like YuYuYu's characters a lot more, so the story has a lot more impact. |
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GoldenPincers
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YYY is all about heroism and the selflessness of its chosen Heroes. The series NEVER tried to pretend it was a "grimdark" take on the genre. Yes, it's darker than most. But it retains a lot of light-heartedness with the purpose of giving characters time to bond together and with the audience. Madoka's tragic spiral of death was great and all, but this isn't what YYY was ever about. Within the context of the show, where the girls are literally immortal but lose bodily functions each time they overexert themselves, you could arguably say it's worse than death as they have to keep suffering again and again for the sake of saving the world and each other. The series has plenty of darker moments, but it never falls into self-pity or grimdark for the sake of it or anything like that... And there's a good reason for that: The ones giving powers to the girls. In Madoka, it's Kyubey (which I needn't say his goals or motivations at this point since anyone reading since would know), but due to his lack of empathy and emotions, and his own goals, he keeps forcing girls into horrible situations they can't get away from, and he doesn't give 2 craps about it. It's YYY, they receive their powers from Shinju (a fusion of pro-humanity gods) via Taisha (the organization working under Shinju, which also serves as government). But Taisha is a group made of people, humans. Like the Heroes, they also live in this post-apocalyptic world, and have no desire to let whatever's left get destroyed more than them. The Heroes' backers are humans like them, and thus have emotions like them, which Kyubey lacked. As further explored in the prequel WSY and the currently-airing sequel YYS, the Hero System is a cycle of trial and error. Everytime they realize a version of the System has flaws, Taisha corrects them. YYY's System exists as it is bc of flaws in WSY's System, and YYS's System exists bc of flaws in YYY's System. It's a continuously evolving system that has existed for 300 years in the series' timeline. At the end of S1, after everything the girls sacrificed to protect the world from impending doom, Taisha realized that the current Hero System is fatally flawed (as demonstrated by 2 of the 5 girls breaking down), and keeping it as it is will do nothing but quicken the world's end. Thus they cancelled the system that was in place, thus resulting in all the side-effects also being cancelled: the girls earned the return of their limbs; they saved the world and showed Taisha how flawed their system was. As for Yuuna waking up from her coma (aside from the fact it is currently being answered in the sequel), within the show's context, it's the perfect direction, and anything else would have gone against what YYY has been doing. Like I said at the start, YYY is all about heroism. Yuuna is by far the most heroic of the girls and with the most willpower, and the audience (and characters) are frequently reminded of the values of a Hero. Even without the current reveals in S2, by taking S1 on its own, you can easily attribute Yuuna's recovery to her immense willpower and determination to never ever give up, something WE KNOW is in-character for her. Having her stay as a vegetable would have gone against the principles and things the show had been presenting through its entire run. YYY's S1 never aimed for a bad ending. The anime's staff even said so themselves in an interview. |
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zrnzle500
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Uh, Day Break Illusion aired over 2 years after Madoka finished airing. Unless you are purporting that Day Break Illusion was in production 2 1/2 years prior to its airing and can substantiate that claim, I'm not sure that the author of the piece is the one who is incorrect. In regard to the article, while I do think YuYuYu is the second best magical girl show in the Madoka vein, I don't know that I would say that it is on the same level as the first one. It would be difficult to match the series that piqued my interest in the genre in the first place. But I think the second season could end up closer. |
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GoldenPincers
Posts: 65 |
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I love both Madoka and YYY. I think they are both amazing shows in their own right, and both achieve greatness through different means.
But I wish people would stop bashing YYY on the pretext that it's a "Madoka-clone" or "it's not dark enough". Despite all of Madoka's greatness, it lacked something in my opinion: the ability to make me deeply care about the characters. The tragedy they go through is gripping, sad and makes me wish they succeed, but the characters themselves don't nearly have as much bonding (whether it's between themselves or with the audience). Like many people have said in the past (and here as well), Madoka is plot-driven while YYY is character-driven. Have you thought why it's so? YYY spends a lot of time with its characters in their daily life, doing activities, helping others, messing with each other, talking about mundane stuff, etc. far moreso than Madoka ever did. This continuous bonding makes the audience care for the girls and root for them to succeed in preserving their daily life. The importance of everyday life is an important aspect frequently showcased in the series. Madoka doesn't have that. While there is some bonding, it's very limited since Mami dies early, while Kyouka and Homura stay away from the others, leaving only Madoka and Sayaka, the latter who breaks down anyway. Lightheartedness is quickly gone and the importance of daily life is only briefly shown through Madoka's family life. Now, that makes the series plot-driven, more than YYY, but far less character-driven. I watched and loved Madoka for the story. I watched and loved YYY for the characters. Now of course, if for some reason you're someone who absolutely hates slice of life with burning passion, YYY's will likely not be for you. But I'd just want to see people stop bashing on YYY for either a) "copying Madoka", even though it did more than enough to differentiate itself from Madoka and was never trying to copy Madoka in the first place, or b) "failing to capture the deep and philosophical aspects of Madoka" which, again, YYY never pretended to be deep or thought-provoking. Like the article says, YYY (and the Yuusha de Aru franchise in general) isn't particularly subtle and that works perfectly fine for it (ignoring the debatability of whether Madoka is actually deep or not, but whatever). |
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GoldenPincers
Posts: 65 |
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I think that is because Madoka and YYY are very different series at core, with vastly different goals, ideas and executions. Aside from both being magical girl series and both being darker than the average anime of the genre, they don't have much in common. Also, while it might sound like an excuse (which I could understand), YYY was a franchise created with the intention of it being multi-entry from the get-go. The Washio Sumi LN came out before the Yuuki Yuuna anime, a short VN came out nearly immediately after S1's ending, a short sequel chapter was released in the same way, and the Nogi Wakaba prequel started publishing only half a year after S1. While Madoka has several entries as well, I always felt like those were created only as a result of the anime, while YYY's entries had always been in the mind of the creators. Basically, YYY is a big package with a lot of entries (all of which are canon actually), similarly to how someone would unlock new chapters/worlds in a video game through story progression, with all chapters having always been there, while Madoka is a complete first game that later got separate expansions, fan-discs, etc. by popular demand. |
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zrnzle500
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I am well aware they are rather different series, despite their similarities. When I referred to the show as being in the Madoka vein, that was shorthand for "dark magical girl series popularized by Madoka." I wouldn't think so highly of YuYuYu if it were merely a copy of Madoka, and I think Chris has made the case for that well enough. |
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WingKing
Posts: 617 |
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Frankly, I always found the "Madoka clone" accusations thrown at YuYu to be lazy and shallow, from people who see two shows where bad things happen to magical girls and don't bother giving it a closer look, where the key differences become clear. The argument I've always made is that YuYu acknowledges Madoka's perspective but rejects its conclusions, and Chris is basically making a similar point in his article. But he and others in this thread have already gone into that topic well enough.
What I don't see people talking about very often are the influences of other franchises besides Madoka on YuYu, and there are some very noticeable ones, especially when you look at the history of Seiji Kishi, who directed the first season and is "Chief Director" of the second. Right away watching the first season, things like the rather abstract/faceless/mysterious enemies and the strong emphasis on the social bonds within the Hero Club immediately reminded me of the Persona series (note that Kishi directed P4 The Animation and was a unit supervisor on the P3 movies). Also, the philosophy of "Lots of comedy and character development makes the feels hit even harder" has been Key Visual Arts' calling card for almost two decades - another commenter in this thread mentioned Clannad, which is a fair comparison, and Kishi himself directed Angel Beats, which also pulls from that playbook. Now personally, I'm a big fan of both the Persona series and most of Key's stuff, so it's no surprise that Yuki Yuna connected with me in a way that Madoka never did. I can admire the artistry and cleverness of Madoka, but its story and characters left me cold, and every time I've tried to re-watch it since it originally aired I've ended up drifting away after 3 or 4 episodes. Yuki Yuna, OTOH, I've re-watched the first season maybe 3? 4? times by now, and I never get tired of it - it's become one of those shows for me that feels like coming back to visit old friends again, and the second season so far is only enhancing the first season's foundation. |
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Sailor Sedna
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Call me out as a misfit or something, I don't care, but I'm just gonna say something honest:
I never really got into Madoka nor do I still understand what's so great about it. I mean, I heard about it, the concept and such, I thought it was fine, not horrible, but something about it just never clicked with me, I just don't see what's there that appeals to others (plus the whole 12-13 episode stuff of modern anime to me doesn't work at all). And consequently I feel it's kinda changed the course of magical girl anime to the point where now every magical girl anime (with some exceptions) now has to be more dark and more gritty (I can handle stuff like that), but now it's to the point where to me it's like a lot of magical girl anime in that genre just look the same and blend together... 
I don't think it's killed the magical girl genre, I agree with what that other poster said, but that Precure cash cow to me, needs to head to the slaughterhouse (I feel it's been going downhill for five years now)... |
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DRosencraft
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So, I won't dip my toe too deep into this debate, because I've gone there before and it gets nowhere. But, I do wan tot reiterate the fact that there is a tendency of a fandom to oversimplify a genre based on tertiary similarities.
I think that complaining about the ending of S1 of Yuki Yuna is laughable for two reasons. One, it was quite explicitly known to be the end of the a single part of a multi-part story - i.e., there was more to come. As S2 makes abundantly clear, there isn't a neat and clean happy ending. The fact that Yuki Yuna's story doesn't end after a single season (or a season and some movies, as it were) should not be a valid critique. Second, criticizing the idea that the girls in Yuki Yuna are "healed" at the end as a cop-out is like saying someone dying from cancer but finding treatment that works is undeserving. It's not like they were impaired one minute, fine the next. No, it was a recovery. it took time. It's not like their memory of what happened went away. And correct me if I'm wrong, but is not a huge central part of Madoka's story the fact that a certain girl kept rewinding time because she didn't like that her friend died? That friend then going on to become an omnipotent being that watches over and cleanses all magical girls who might become witches just before they fall to that level? I fail to see how that is any less a deus ex than girl who lost voice, or was paralyzed, or was maimed, being healed by the pre-established deity of their world. My point isn't that one story mode is more valid than the other, but if this discussion is going to go anywhere at all, it should at least attempt to parse out illogical or logically inconsistent talking points. |
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