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Answerman - Why Does Rock-Paper-Scissors Come Up In Anime So Much?


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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:30 pm Reply with quote
shosakukan wrote:
As I said above, in old times in Japan, of course, there were also smaller round coins of which values were lower.
If you read/watch Japanese works set in Japan in old times more, you may be able to see those smaller round coins with a square hole.


Interesting. I've seen those coins with the square holes in them, and I even have a few, but nearly all depictions I've seen of them associate them with China rather than Japan (and the ones I have are Chinese). Of course, I watch TV and movies from all over the world.

nargun wrote:
Japanese money under the shogunate is apparently completely crazy-complex, but as far as I understand it:
+ the bakufu kept their accounts in rice, koku, which meant the domains had to too for tax-assessment purposes ["kept their accounts in" -> the valuing process meant that things-of-value were equated to an equivalent value in rice.]
+ in edo, the circulating medium-of-exchange was the gold ryou, which floated around parity to the rice koku. One ryou -- a gold "koban" coin, although there were larger denominations -- was a seriously large sum of money; a koku was enough rice to feed a man for a year, and food was more expensive back then. [at meiji, the money system was revised with the yen replacing the ryou at parity... there's been some inflation since then].
+ in osaka, where the trades were smaller, the circulating medium was lump silver by weight, which floated relative to both the koku and the ryou.
+ as is usually the case in these sorts of societies, the small-change situation was terrible beyond measure, largely made up of aged and worn chinese cash-style bronze coins imported long ago and small numbers of local copies. In theory these floated too, but in reality they probably passed as token/nominal-value money.

+ in reality japan had a reasonably-functional banking system and most large transactions were in paper. I don't think that the japanese had a system equivalent to the english quarter-days [where transactions were denominated in money but logged, and only netted up and settled four times a year], so I don't know how stable rural societies dealt with petty transactions given that the small-change situation was even worse than england.


Heh, thanks for the detailed explanation. I thought about those big gold coins and how they were probably worth a lot, so I figured you wouldn't see them very often (considering stories like Samurai Champloo and Naruto would have someone exchange just one of them for lots of stuff). Sounds like aside from those old Chinese coins, there wouldn't be much stuff that can lend well to flipping, and I can say through personal experience that it's a lot more cumbersome to flip those Chinese coins due to the hole in the middle (as your thumbtip might lodge itself in the hole, preventing it from flying through the air properly, and their aerodynamics are really weird).
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
Maybe, but I can still think of actual sports that I think are less interesting to watch.

I've been told that tournaments are a rather tense affair. For a human to manually produce an arbitrarily large and seemingly random set of values—without inadvertently creating any discernible patterns while doing so—must take its toll on their mental constitution.
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DirtyCircle



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 128
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:50 pm Reply with quote
The game was mentioned in passing in this week's episode to INUYASHIKI....
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:02 am Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
I've been told that tournaments are a rather tense affair. For a human to manually produce an arbitrarily large and seemingly random set of values—without inadvertently creating any discernible patterns while doing so—must take its toll on their mental constitution.


In a way, that's true, but competitive rock-paper-scissors is much like competitive poker in that the randomization is overshadowed by tells, namely reading your opponents' tells while concealing your own. The best rock-paper-scissors competitors are good at discerning what the opponents will do and reacting accordingly while preventing the people they're rock-paper-scissoring against from doing the same. It's not so much randomization as much as it is a battle of wits.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:45 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon, I attend a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG tournament most Sundays at a local comic book store. I still find a RPS tourney to be dull.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:10 pm Reply with quote
That's perfectly fine. I would still recommend to see at least one of them, if only for their familiarity and some insight into the nature of human competition.

I personally don't find bingo machine competitions to be that exciting, but some of those competitors are so overflowing with enthusiasm for bingo machines and can talk for hours and hours on various techniques, strategies, and skills needed to get the edge over other people. (Bingo machines are those games where you pull a plunger to launch balls into holes corresponding to a 5x5 grid, and your goal is to make a 5-in-a-row. They were banned in the United States as they're classified as gambling machines, as at that time, there was no one to step up to argue, let alone prove, that it is a game of skill.)
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RocketJew



Joined: 24 Nov 2017
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Location: Czechia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
...the game is still known as "Roshambo" in Europe...


Never heard of it. Maybe Justin should realize that Europe is NOT just France.
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shosakukan



Joined: 09 Jan 2014
Posts: 317
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:23 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Interesting. I've seen those coins with the square holes in them, and I even have a few, but nearly all depictions I've seen of them associate them with China rather than Japan (and the ones I have are Chinese). Of course, I watch TV and movies from all over the world.

Ancient Japanese people started to mint their coins with a square hole when they were importing things from Tang-dynasty China, and scholars think ancient Japanese coins with a square hole were modelled on ancient Chinese coins with a square hole. So it is no wonder that they resemble each other.


Last edited by shosakukan on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:50 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Quote:
I've seen those coins with the square holes in them, and I even have a few,


Game companies in the US have used a good imitation of those coins as score counters in Mahjong sets. If the ones you have don't look terribly old that may be the source.
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shosakukan



Joined: 09 Jan 2014
Posts: 317
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
Game companies in the US have used a good imitation of those coins as score counters in Mahjong sets. If the ones you have don't look terribly old that may be the source.

Speaking of replicas, Japanese toy company Epoch sold replicas of old Japanese coins at 100 yen a replica via gacha-gacha (capsule-toy vending machines).
http://butsuyoku.net/shokugan/kosen/index.html
https://wispblog.tree-web.net/data/1/page_1_3025.html
Maybe they can be used as realia.

Since some real early-modern Japanese coins with a square hole are not very rare numismatics-wise, I have seen Japanese dealers in old coins sell them at (the equivalent to) a few dollars an old coin.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Quote:
I've seen those coins with the square holes in them, and I even have a few,


Game companies in the US have used a good imitation of those coins as score counters in Mahjong sets. If the ones you have don't look terribly old that may be the source.


Nah, these look incredibly aged and a bit rusted. Nobody in my family and none of my friends have ever played mahjong, and I didn't even learn the rules until earlier this year.
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Naiera



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:37 pm Reply with quote
It is most certainly NOT known as "roshambo" all over Europe.
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shosakukan



Joined: 09 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:26 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Nah, these look incredibly aged and a bit rusted.

It may be interesting to examine the characters on the coins and to identify them numismatics-wise.
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