Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Scum's Wish
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2358 |
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I don't think the two sides of Ecchan are mutually exclusive. To the contrary, because Ecchan desperately wants Hanabi's love but knows she can never truly have it, it seems natural to me that she would oscillate violently between aggressively forcing her dream upon Hanabi and depressive self-condemnation and self-pitying. The seemingly mercurial shifts in her behavior are the outward signs of her internal struggle; she wants Hanabi so badly that she can't decide whether to ignore her conscience and aggressively force that desire onto Hanabi or to acknowledge the futility of this and collapse in a ball of self-pity and regret. I also think this is a pretty plausible pattern for a sexually abusive partner; repeatedly bouncing between kind/respectful and abusive is exactly the kind've cycle I'd expect to form between most abusers and abusees.
Regarding the rest of the thread's conversation: I don't think either Ecchan or Hanabi are blameless. If we're keeping some kind of sin ledger, I think Ecchan's sins have been somewhat darker (I don't remember the precise lines, but I have the vague sense that Ecchan's sexual advances have somewhat trampled over issues of Hanabi's agency and consent), but Hanabi has certainly used Ecchan as a sexual and emotional outlet when convenient, even though she knows how much more painful that will inevitably be for both of them.
I think it's sadly not all that uncommon for people not to recognize rape - or being unwilling to acknowledge it for what it is - even when it's happened or is happening to them, particularly when it occurs between two people who are otherwise emotionally close and even sometimes consensually intimate. I am not sure Hanabi's mental image of Ecchan should be considered when judging Ecchan's behavior. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23905 |
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@ NeverConvex - that's why I was careful to stipulate that the show does not seem to be deliberately positing that Hanabi subconsciously considers Ecchan a rapist. That's my interpretation. I don't think the show is trying to say, "hey, Hanabi SHOULD consider Ecchan a rapist but is falling into the very real life situation of associating with her victimizer for various reasons." You can argue that the show should be going that route, but I don't think you can plausibly demonstrate that is. Given that, I am judging Ecchan's actions in the same light that the show seems to showing Hanabi judging them. And that does not involve viewing Ecchan as a rapist.
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2358 |
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I think we see Hanabi's role in the show somewhat differently. I don't view her as the author's voice or as the carrier of the show's point-of-view or its judgment of its characters. I'm not sure any of its characters play that role; instead they all seem to be portrayed as complex mixes of good and bad, admirable and blameworthy, condemnable and relatable (except Akane, of course, hence my earlier whining - but even she has gotten the tiniest hint of an extra half-layer recently). I don't think Kuzu has gone out of its way to elevate any particular character's perspective very far above the rest.
I somehow dislike calling Ecchan a rapist but I still think that, at least in their first sexual encounter, Ecchan did rape Hanabi. While I think it is technically correct to call her a rapist (I believe she is a person who raped someone, after all), that usage makes me think we're suggesting that this is something she does regularly or that this is a good description of her typical behavior with respect to her partners. But most of her abuse is of a lesser sort, and most of her sexual interactions with Hanabi seem to have been consensual. She generally still steamrolls over Hanabi's occasional complaints, aggressively pushes Hanabi into conveniently salacious situations, and exploits Hanabi's loneliness whenever she can, but I only recall their first sexual encounter as non-consensual (although it's been a while and I don't remember the details of most of these scenes, so it's entirely possible I'm misremembering). |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23905 |
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@ NeverConvex: yes, if you believe the show is not asking us to accept a certain point of view on things, but rather just presenting situations for which we are free to draw our own conclusions, then we definitely disagree.
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2358 |
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I think it gives a particular tone to each scene, and that doing so understandably, predictably, and systematically colors our judgment and reaction, but I don't think we've been asked to embrace any particular character's point of view. Certainly most scenes in the show are crafted with the intent of evoking a particular feeling from us as viewers (this is just good craftsmanship), but I don't think that's the same thing as asking us to embrace that immediate feeling as the morally correct one, and it certainly isn't the same thing as asking us to endorse a particular character's views. I think, for example, that the first time Hanabi/Ecchan had sex - where I contend that Ecchan raped Hanabi - we were led to focus in our immediate reactions less on the issue and importance of consent and more on the awkward push-and-pull of the complex relationship between these two immature, conflicted young people. (Nevertheless, I think we're obligated to think about issues of consent in that scene, and I don't think Kuzu *ignored* the issue of consent - it just didn't make it focal.)
Maybe more importantly, I also don't think it really matters (in judging Ecchan) whether the show's director/author want us to judge a character in one way or another. Ultimately, we should decide how we feel about a character based on that character's actions. Tone and authorial intent are more like suggestions worth consideration than facts in themselves; an author painting a scene or character with a particular tone should cause us to discuss whether that choice is compelling, but not to simply accept it. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23905 |
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Okay, I can accept your distinction of how the show is colouring our interpretations of various things as opposed to making direct appeals to think one way or another. And I'm saying that in the instance of Ecchan, I am willingly allowing the show to colour my perception of her.
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rinkwolf10
Posts: 750 |
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The context here is GENDER. If you change Ecchan into a boy then all bets are off. I just can't stand the hypocrisy and the blatant attempt to romanticizing an atrocious act and diminishing/downplay it's severity in order to justify fawning over/ship a couple in which one person is clearly forcing sex on the other who isn't comfortable with it. It's much like how if a woman in a relationship found a man attractive and drawn to them and that man forces sex on her in her time of weakness. Add to it that that man is deeply engraved in the social circle (possible cousin of the boyfriend) of that women and you have a similar situation. It's not something you should praise or condone nor try to rationalize in order to ship the pairing because it pertains to a genre/sub-genre you enjoy. Also, those saying that Hanabi isn't a simple innocent bystander in all of this and that she is "inviting" this kind or conduct, I have to question your morals, Hanabi wants a friend in all of this, one she can confined in and in her pursuit of that, that friend forced sex on her. From than on she know to expect that kind of attention from her but saw it a trade off of possibly being forced into sex in order to confide in someone. To imply that that trade off is equal/reasonable is beyond stupid. Hanabi isn't innocent in many regards but in regards to the situation with Ecchan, she is. Now those trying to rationalize this are just trying to make the pairing seem less vile that it is and I guarantee that if Ecchan was a boy and Mugi was a girl, the reviews would have a whole lot of other things to say about Ecchan, simply because it attacks a sub-genre they enjoy. This reviewer has been pretty balanced in covering all the other character "interactions" but when it comes to Ecchan and Hanabi they become extremely bias to the point of trying to rationalize something that is blatantly egregious in order to present the relationship in a tolerable light just because it fits the preference of the reviewer. The hypocrisy is blinding. Last edited by rinkwolf10 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zrnzle500
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^While I think that had Ecchan been a man, more people would have felt their behavior was rapey (though I'm not sure they would have said it was outright sexual assault, just that it would seem more rapey to them), I don't think anyone is romanticizing what she did or trying to justify shipping the two (I'm not sure anyone is shipping them at all). All describe her behavior in negative terms (unhealthy, manipulative, etc.) so I don't think anyone is saying what see did was ok, just that they don't see it as sexual assault.
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2358 |
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I think this was a pretty good description of their first encounter. I don't think it's really true in later encounters, though. Her choosing to join Ecchan for the trip to her family's vacation home looked a lot like Hanabi using Ecchan not only as a friend but also as a sexual and intimately emotional outlet. It looked like her using Ecchan to mitigate her loneliness. I do think that's much lesser offense than some of Ecchan's behavior (as I said, I think Ecchan raped Hanabi when they first had sex), but I don't think at this point that Hanabi is blameless. |
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Merida
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Nope, that's just you trying to turn this into a gender issue for whatever reason, but sorry, i'm not going to play... |
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rinkwolf10
Posts: 750 |
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Again, call a spade a spade. Also, the reviewer has been very bais to downplay Ecchans acts or try to rationalize them instead of saying, "yep, she basically rapped her" they say, "Hanabi didn't want the sex but she sticks around, so she is part to blame". To top it off Ecchan and Hanabi's relationship get the bulk of the reviews when it is in the episode and the majority of that is to rationalize what Ecchan is doing. If you don't see that, then here are some usurps from this weeks review.
I read here, Hanabi wants the sex just as much as Ecchan and puts herself in situations where that sex is bound to come but does all this discreetly which forces Ecchan to Force Hanabi to have sex with her. Now if that isn't trying to rationalize Ecchan's conduct, I don't know what is.
Well that is an interesting reply, "Nope you are wrong because I said so". I you don't have to play if you don't want too, just don't engage me if you don't have anything to back up you claim with or counter-argue the points you so conveniently left out in your reply. One of which was the parallel to a man doing this to a women that is in a relationship.
Something people are forgetting is that Hanabi has just confessed to the teacher last episode and most likely is in need of a friend she can confide in. That someone is Ecchan. She doesn't search out Ecchan because she wants the sex but because she wants to confined in Ecchan but knows that sex is the trade off to that as it was last time she was emotionally unstable. This point seems to be disregarded completely when trying to see the rational of Hanabi going with Ecchan on the trip. She wasn't actively trying to seek out sex but know that sex was the toll to pay to have Ecchan as a friend. A friend that she desperately needs right now for support in light of current events. Last edited by rinkwolf10 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Simplo
Posts: 20 |
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No. Because of social norms man, doing anything to a woman LOOKS worse. We will probably always look at it like this because of the power dynamic, where man seems more powerful, therefore more forceful. You try to change the situation into one where we are pre-programmed to see more fault. Because the show uses a girl as a 'predator' in this scenario, it frees the audience (at least part of it) from gender-based preconceptions (which are your whole argument), letting people look at the situation without having to overcome the anti-man bias. Therefore, changing a gender, does not win you an argument, sorry. And when you honestly look at it, its not Ecchan's job to be an innocent friend just because Hanabi might need it. So what if she needs it? That does not make sex into rape. She never actually was FORCED to have sex and if you actually look at, Hanabi understands that she's using Ecchan even after the first encounter. I would consider it abuse if Hanabi actually treated it like it and distanced herself or reported it. She doesn't do it and on top of it, she goes on a trip with sex clearly implied. Looks like a very consensual rape to me.
You are using Hanabi's bad emotional condition as an excuse for her to do anything and be protected from everything, while Ecchan gets completely different treatment. If I used that argument for Ecchan it would be: ''Ecchan just want Hanabi to love her and Hanabi uses her as an emotional sponge/sex doll'' See how ridiculous it would be? That's how you look to people who disagree with your ''Ecchan is a devil rapist and anyone, who says that Hanabi isn't innocent is immoral'' narrative. Funny thing is that I dislike Ecchan, and think that she is way too forward, but your attacks are just so obnoxiously over-blown and one-sided that people can't help but defend her. Last edited by Simplo on Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23905 |
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@ Rinkwolf - you are engaging in the kind of poster behaviour I really don't like. Namely, you are characterizing the comments of people who hold different opinions about an issue in a way that bears very little resemblance to what they are actually saying. Case in point:
Please direct my attention to anyone in this thread or from Jacob's review where anybody is "romanticizing" what Ecchan has done or where anybody is "fawning" over the relationship between her and Hanabi? Because I'm not seeing that. I happen to agree with your assertion that if Ecchan was a male her actions would be viewed in a much harsher light. But it's not like people I'm reading here in this thread or in Jacob's reviewing are giving her some sort of free pass.
Really now. Allow me to supply some quotes from Jacob's review:
Yeah, hardly the picture of somebody who is trying to paint the relationship in a tolerable light. If you actually read Jacob's review, you'd see his point is that Ecchan has acted improperly as has - in his opinion - Hanabi but at the end of the day, the two were able to navigate the past and come up with a future way of associating that isn't just not unhealthy, but beneficial to both. It's not an interpretation you have to agree with but it doesn't exactly qualify as Looney Tunes, either. If you want to have an intelligent discussion about these issues, how about leaving the cheap moralizing and dishonest characterization of opposing views at home? |
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Gina Szanboti
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Yes, because there's one thing that you and most everyone seems to be overlooking: the difference in weight and strength between genders. Some women sometimes give what men see as mixed signals because they're afraid of what will happen if they give a clear rejection. They hope the guy will understand the unspoken "no" and back off, instead of getting angry and possibly violent in response to a verbal one. That's not a factor in this case. I rewatched that first scene in episode 3, and I'm still not seeing any force. Hanabi never says no, stop, or anything like that. She makes no move to push her away, and only turns her face away to avoid eye contact to prevent Ecchan from reading her. She's shocked at the unexpected turn of events, but she's not afraid of Ecchan. She's not drunk, or weak and she doesn't feel powerless, except to her own inner conflicts. She even thinks Ecchan's beautiful during all this, which doesn't quite mesh with the thoughts of someone being raped. I'm not saying Ecchan's actions were justified or that the encounter wasn't totally dysfunctional, and they wouldn't be any more or less palatable if she were male, but the dynamic is different because Hanabi is not at a physical disadvantage. The only scene between them that really bothers me is the library, and that's because we don't see how it ended. One second, Ecchan's feeling up her leg, the next Hanabi is in the nurse's office. That left me without any anchor to know what to think about that whole thing, other than Ecchan being really out of line and predatory. ::is going to regret posting in this argument:: |
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rinkwolf10
Posts: 750 |
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@Simplo: The point to be made here is that Hanabi doesn't have many people to turn too when she is in emotional termoil. Seeing as Ecchan is her only outlet she uses it. She choses Ecchan as an outlet and she owns that choice along what come of it. But, that doesn't change the fact of the matter of what one side is going to the other and not weighing the ramifications if consent isn't given (Hanabi loosing her freindship with a dear friend), thus consent is taken. Also, to also stipulate that the reviews haven't done a hell of alot of "explaining" about Ecchan's actions isn't being sincere either. Case in point
These are just rationalizations for something that shouldn't be condoned. I'm annoyed when I read the review and Hanabi/Ecchan's relatonship is always the center of whichever episode it's in. Majority of which is just things like the above quotes. As soon as Ecchan raped (yes I said it) Hanabi the reviews have been dedicated to pointing out their interactions in a moderate light. But this last review took it over the edge with the about quotes stating that Hanabi wants sex from Ecchan as well and not dwelling why Hanabi keeps coming back to Ecchan. I'm sure if she had more people she felt she would confined in, she would have distanced herself from Ecchan and go to them instead. Ecchan is her only option and Ecchan knows this and uses this against Hanabi.
But, the only difference is that Hanabi isn't FORCING HER INTO THINGS SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO. If Ecchan had a different approach than this argument would hold ground. But, you are basically saying that if Hanabi gets ANYTHING at all out of Ecchan pushing her to have sex that means she is also to blame and has a part to play in it all. Instead, I see it as, Hanabi is trying to get SOMETHING out of her encounters with Ecchan because if she doesn't she will avoid her and she will loose yet another person in her life, possibly the only one she can turn too in times of need. So, NO it's not as ridiculous as you want to make it seem. Hanabi is the victim here and Ecchan is the perpetrator. @Blood:
I'm not saying that the review is "fawing" over Ecchan and Hanabi's relationship in a good light but rather they are giving their replationship extra light and attention. Most of which has turned into rationalizing what Ecchan has done and is doing. Since their relationship has started the episodes that feature it in the slightest are full of walls of text as if that is all that happened that episode, especially the first time Ecchan had sex with Hanabi, it seems like the whole show has been about just them to this point. That is the Fawning over that I'm talking about. When in truth you can sum up their interaction with half of what is in the reviews and easily expand over other character's relationships. This over analyzation of their relationship has lead to the reviews finally saying that Hanabi plays an active part in how Ecchan treats her and invites he behavior. Instead of saying that Ecchan is the driving force and she gets more aggressive with each encounter.
Now that is just a load of horse shit and exactly what I'm talking about in the reviews over analyzing and rationalizing Ecchan's actions. Hanabi isn't looking for Sex with Ecchan, she wanted a friend, but to get that friend she knows that Ecchan's toll is sex. Ecchan is using sex to make Hanabi more attached to her in hopes that she will reciprocate her feelings of love. Once she sees that it's not working, she tries the same approach but more aggressively. To say that the relationship they have is beneficial to both is exactly the opposite of what is happening. They both were headed for ruin, and if you took the Sex out (which Ecchan insisted on always adding) of their relationship, then it has a future. |
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