View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
synaia
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 112
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:15 pm
|
|
|
NearEasternerJ1 wrote: |
The first few Ghost in the Shell anime were produced by American and British companies (Yes, Bandai Ent was an American company; shouldn't have to belabor the obvious) but are anime due to its intended target and primary Japanese production, direction and screenplay.
|
I'm confused,
Bandai was founded in 1950 in Japan, the US branch was founded in 1978 as far as I know.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Selipse
Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 216
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:17 pm
|
|
|
My definition is, if most of the production, barring animation (so, a lot of outsourced animators don't affect the result), is Japanese, it's anime.
What audience is intended hasn't really mattered since I believe most things like Transformers that were animated in Japan were written and planned in the US anyways, so that already disqualifies from being anime.
Now, we have Pokémon Generations. MyAnimeList refuses to accept it, but I believe it is anime. Yes, it was made for an international audience, and I do find it weird that it's not being released in Japanese (though I'm sure it'll happen some day). However, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't just animated in Japan, but also had Japanese creative control. It has signs of being originally written in Japanese, so I think the US side only funded and translated and dubbed the project.
Also, things like SHELTER and other projects with non-Japanese directors would still count if most of the rest of the main staff are Japanese.
I believe we'll get more productions like these as Crunchyroll and such start funding projects and anime in general starts having a more international appeal.
The term anime exists and I believe should only be used for Japanese productions because Japanese animation is such a huge market and it's just tiring to say "Japanese animation" every time. It's just a convenient term for saying "Japanese animation", that's why I can't count the mere art style as such. Not to mention that calling things anime because of the art style is really dumb and just perpetuates the stupid idea that all anime looks the same.
Also: regarding Thunderbolt Fantasy, the question is more about whether it is actually animation, than it being anime. I believe it is, although many people can't accept it so easily.
I study animation, and I've had this conversation with some of my friends and teachers. They really seem taken aback every time. Are puppets animation? After all, they're technically live-action, too. Most people say they're not animation, but then I ask them whether a CG show that is being broadcast with mo-cap live counts as animation (like Naria Girls), and that's when they start doubting themselves. I mean, how can you say an obviously cartoonish 3DCG character is live-action? Although some people do say that mo-cap itself doesn't count as animation in the first place.
I personally count all of those as animation. My own line is drawn when it's people in suits. That question was asked to me by a friend and that's when I really had no answer. I mean, the Godzilla creators call it suitmation, but in the end it's just someone dressed in an animal outfit...
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lord Oink
Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:39 pm
|
|
|
EnigmaticSky wrote: | I think at the end of the day it's kinda ridiculous to draw lines in the sand. You can't say it's based on art, because it can vary, and even what is the trend for animation in anime changes. Saying the staff has to be "pure-blooded Japanese" is well, ridiculous. Can you imagine anyone getting as uptight about french animation as some people do anime? "I only watch french animation, called frenchimation, and don't you dare call it cartoons. Oh wait, the director was actually Japanese, dropping this show. |
If people are really going to fight over the word then just start saying "I like Japanese cartoons" where there's no wiggle room for people to try that say something non Japanese is Japanese like there is with "anime". I like Japanese cartoons because they do things other countries do not. Sure, when an American cartoon is animated by Japan the animation generally looks a lot better but I'm not going to say the entire show is Japanese or actually start watching it because everything else about the show is similar to other cartoons
NearEasternerJ1 wrote: | Interestingly, ANN are not consistent on this. Why are Mega Man, Transformers and Street Fighter coded as "U.S." shows on here despite the fact that a lot of the production of these shows were partially Japanese, but Batman Gotham Knight was not? I mean come on. |
Personal bias. People can stretch the inclusion of American shows on anime websites quite a bit but they usually only do it shows they personally care about. None of these arguments ever have anything to do with integrity or the medium itself, they are purely fueled buy a self-serving agenda. They want their show to be included with anime because they think it's a cool label, or they want to discuss it on an anime website rather than having to go on some cartoon forum to discuss it, or they like a show and desperately want other people to like it as well so they make a plea to the anime community.
Thunderbolt Fantasy is not anime. At best it would be classified as tokusatsu. Stop motion and puppets have more in common with live action than animation.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2598
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:54 pm
|
|
|
EnigmaticSky wrote: | I think at the end of the day it's kinda ridiculous to draw lines in the sand. You can't say it's based on art, because it can vary, and even what is the trend for animation in anime changes. Saying the staff has to be "pure-blooded Japanese" is well, ridiculous. Can you imagine anyone getting as uptight about french animation as some people do anime? "I only watch french animation, called frenchimation, and don't you dare call it cartoons. Oh wait, the director was actually Japanese, dropping this show." At the end of the day we all like what are essentially animated foreign films, sometimes in short form television programs, and sometimes motion pictures. Animation frees you of the limits of filming reality and allows you to abstract details, allowing for various new storytelling techniques. I mean I know a lot of people think "cartoon" is a dirty word, but I mean... why? Does it have to be anime because it sounds cooler and more socially acceptable, like when comic books were calling themselves "graphic novels?"
I just like good movies, and I tend to particularly enjoy Japanese animated films. Who cares about what you call it. I'll watch any movie about anything from anywhere if it's good. Yes, even if I have to call it a cartoon because it's from somewhere else. |
I'm with you almost all the way on this, though I differ on the "art" assertion as I do believe art style can be as defining as any other characteristic of an animation. As I said, I think the origin of the style pegs it's definition. I for one don't subscribe to calling something "anime" to be cool or indicate something is cool, being half-way to an otaku (whatever that is...) I care not for social acceptance. Anime as a style is vastly different than the art styles of American animations like Disney or Hanna-Barbera, which people of earlier generations called "cartoons", so I wouldn't use the terms interchangeably. I wouldn't get all over them if they did though, we are strong enough to overlook a little "ignorance" aren't we? Anyway, "cartoon" is a misappropriation as it originally referred to a single drawing on heavy paper or other sturdy material (frescoes and tapestries counts too!) which got applied to single panel drawings in newspapers to provide political commentary. I do get a kick out of rebranding "comics" though, sort of like commentary at the end of Lego Movie where Will Ferrell says "when you use it like I do, it's an adult thing" (i.e. not a toy). Now I just love your coining of "frenchimation", sounds like something especially pervy
Last edited by Hiroki not Takuya on Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Oshawott
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:59 pm
|
|
|
Here's my personal definition of anime: A show that features character designs that look more realistic and covers genres beyond surreal comedy, regardless of its nationality.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kadmos1
Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 13589
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:22 pm
|
|
|
Anime is Japanese for "animation" (same for manga and "comics"). So, to a Japanese person, "Adventure Time" is anime. Also, technically all anime is dubbed as it is adding sound to a picture.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Selipse
Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 216
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:30 pm
|
|
|
Lord Oink wrote: | Stop motion and puppets have more in common with live action than animation. |
Now, puppets are one thing, but stop-motion is 100% animation and there's absolutely no way in hell it could be called live-action.
Most of the people I had that "are puppets animation?" conversation with said that for it to be animation it must be made by frames. Even digital animation like cut-out or 3D need key frames from where to interpolate movement. And pure stop-motion is the one medium where you have to make every single frame by hand. You could actually call it the purest form of animation.
Mr. Oshawott wrote: | Here's my personal definition of anime: A show that features character designs that look more realistic and covers genres beyond surreal comedy, regardless of its nationality. |
So Batman or Spider-man are anime, but Shin-chan or Doraemon aren't???????
See, this is the problem with trying to define anime by genre or style.
What even is the line for "realism"? Does K-ON count? Or was it disqualified by default because it's a comedy?
|
Back to top |
|
|
SilverTalon01
Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2409
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:35 pm
|
|
|
cyberdraco wrote: | I still think Kira from Seed shouldn't be in the poll because they were never called Newtypes in Seed or Seed Destiny, they were called Coordinators. |
I swear nobody that complains about this actually reads comments...
Coordinators are not newtypes, but SEED does have newtypes. SEED Destiny revealed Kira was a newtype in addition to being the ultimate coordinator and having SEED. Those are all separate things, but it just so happens Kira is all of them.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Raikuro
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 347
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:40 pm
|
|
|
Selipse wrote: | Now, we have Pokémon Generations. MyAnimeList refuses to accept it, but I believe it is anime. Yes, it was made for an international audience, and I do find it weird that it's not being released in Japanese (though I'm sure it'll happen some day). However, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't just animated in Japan, but also had Japanese creative control. It has signs of being originally written in Japanese, so I think the US side only funded and translated and dubbed the project. |
That's just the site owners being the Japanophiles they are. They refused to add the Black Widow/Punisher movie swearing up and down it's a US production only animated by Japanese, despite all the other Marvel shows and movies from Madhouse being on there. But once it got a Japanese dub, they happily added it.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NearEasternerJ1
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:41 pm
|
|
|
Kadmos1 wrote: | Anime is Japanese for "animation" (same for manga and "comics"). So, to a Japanese person, "Adventure Time" is anime. Also, technically all anime is dubbed as it is adding sound to a picture. |
1. Correct. Anime does have a French language origin, but that's within the context of Japan. If you want to be technical, Japanese comments on Youtube that acknowledge foreign voice actors use the term "seiyuu" so in that respect, JYB is a "seiyuu". But we're speaking English. In English, seiyuu ONLY refers to Japanese language VOs and anime ONLY refers to Japanese animation.
2. That's the technical definition. The most common definition of dubbing implies recording over something produced in another language. Technically, the Simpsons has "ADR" but it isn't dubbing per say. Besides, the voice acting is recorded in American shows first and THEN the images are done, so that's a contentious claim to make, Kadmos.
|
Back to top |
|
|
bleachj0j
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 926
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:45 pm
|
|
|
Surprised shows like Avatar, Boondocks or Legend of Korra weren't up here. Especially Korra since the first 8 episodes of Book 2 were done by Studio Pierrot. Avatar, to me, was the first show that did challenge my perception of what Anime was. Because before I had never seen something from America that looked liked it. Sure you had some shows Totally Spies and Teen Titans, that had anime influences, but Avatar was just a whole other level.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Gemnist
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 1760
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:53 pm
|
|
|
It's a crime that Avatar isn't on this list. Some of the episodes were animated by Studio Pierrot. Also, Thundercats 2011 was animated by Studio 4C.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Oshawott
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:01 pm
|
|
|
Selipse wrote: |
Mr. Oshawott wrote: | Here's my personal definition of anime: A show that features character designs that look more realistic and covers genres beyond surreal comedy, regardless of its nationality. |
So Batman or Spider-man are anime, but Shin-chan or Doraemon aren't???????
See, this is the problem with trying to define anime by genre or style.
What even is the line for "realism"? |
Alright, I misspoke. I've should've said "a show that tends to feature realistic character designs; i.e., more detailed.
Quote: | Does K-ON count? Or was it disqualified by default because it's a comedy? |
I never said anything about K-ON not being an anime show due to it being a comedy. Plus, I mentioned "surreal comedy," a specific kind of comedy, not comedy in a general sense.
I've got no more to say, so I'll stop here.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Selipse
Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 216
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:21 pm
|
|
|
Mr. Oshawott wrote: | Alright, I misspoke. I've should've said "a show that tends to feature realistic character designs; i.e., more detailed. |
Making your definition even looser actually worsens the situation
Mr. Oshawott wrote: | I never said anything about K-ON not being an anime show due to it being a comedy. Plus, I mentioned "surreal comedy," a specific kind of comedy, not comedy in a general sense. |
Alright. Teekyuu. Is that not anime anymore?
NearEasternerJ1 wrote: | 1. Correct. Anime does have a French language origin, but that's within the context of Japan. |
That's a common misconception. French cartoons are called "dessins-animés", with that last part being pronounced almost the same way as anime, but that's not where it comes from.
Anime comes from English. Japan adopted the word animation (アニメーション) and, as Japanese usually does, shortened that word for common use, ending up with "anime" (アニメ).
By the way, it couldn't have come from the French "animation" either, since it's pronounced differently. It would've ended up being written something like アニマシオ and we'd be calling it "anima" (アニマ).
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sheleigha
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 1674
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:31 pm
|
|
|
Raikuro wrote: |
Selipse wrote: | Now, we have Pokémon Generations. MyAnimeList refuses to accept it, but I believe it is anime. Yes, it was made for an international audience, and I do find it weird that it's not being released in Japanese (though I'm sure it'll happen some day). However, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't just animated in Japan, but also had Japanese creative control. It has signs of being originally written in Japanese, so I think the US side only funded and translated and dubbed the project. |
That's just the site owners being the Japanophiles they are. They refused to add the Black Widow/Punisher movie swearing up and down it's a US production only animated by Japanese, despite all the other Marvel shows and movies from Madhouse being on there. But once it got a Japanese dub, they happily added it. |
That's interesting that it happened with those Marvel productions. I feel like the same thing will happen with Generations as well. Technically by that standard, wouldn't Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust be in the same boat? It didn't even get a Japanese DUB until way later, and even then we don't have access/license for it in the western world.
It all gets pretty silly and considering Generations, people on the MAL forums are pretty confused about it, too. It will inevitably come out in Japanese, but regardless of the intent of audience or language, everyone is unanimously agreeing with it being titled as "anime" (and it constantly keeps trying to be added back into the database).
|
Back to top |
|
|
|