Forum - View topicINTEREST: Erotic Manga Artist Threatens to Quit Unless Pirates Stop
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Kikaioh
 Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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Unfortunately, for many people who do pirate, I do think it's a simple matter of them not deserving to experience it. For example, typing in "stream anime" in Google brings up a lot of pirated streaming sites, many of which stream ripped content from Crunchyroll and other legit providers that are legally available in the US (and unfortunately you can also cross-reference those sites with Alexa rankings and see that many of their visitors even come from the US --- KissAnime, for example, has a plurality of US visitors [33%], and their top-ranked popular shows right now are series like One Punch Man, One Piece, Naruto and Hunter X Hunter). Not just that, but these sites make money off of their illegal streams via advertising and (gallingly) even paid subscriptions, bringing them profit at the expense of the original creators. Anyone who uses those sites in spite of having legit and even free alternatives, I would say doesn't deserve to experience the work. But putting that all aside, my broader point isn't the economic aspect, but the wishes and rights of the original content creator --- if they want you to pay in order to experience their work, then you should pay. And you can't really work around that from a moral (or legal) standpoint. Applying your x-ray idea to artist control over their works for example, let's say an artist creates a work that they don't want anyone to see, no matter the price. Basically, you've created a circumstance where artists have no control over their creations whatsoever, and can only make works under the assumption that they have to be created for free for the public to view, basically losing any semblance of ownership over their works. Maybe you're so mired in piracy that you may have lost sight that there's something inherently wrong about people using x-ray vision in the first place to break other people's rights to privacy. Sure, there's a certain degree of reality-checking needed as far as figuring out ways to cope with the situation, but I think both the government and content creators would agree that the bigger problem is that their rights are being broken, and that that needs to be fixed, as opposed to being overlooked. The "x-ray" vision era doesn't just affect art, but basically any information-driven industry, like software development, consulting, etc., and the idea that people who pirate corporate-grade software should be given a free pass because "they were going to do it anyways" doesn't exactly fly when investor dollars are benefiting people who aren't playing by the rules. And again, you can't equate lending a book with piracy. Content creators, publishers, studios etc. are aware of the laws of the countries they operate in (such as the First Sale Doctrine) and release works in their respective formats with the understanding that lending is a legal tradeoff for making their works physically available to the public (before the existence of certain forms of physical distributed media, experiences like plays, musicals, concerts and movies had to be paid for on each viewing --- physical media brought new revenue sources but also concessions as a result of creating customer ownable products). Content creators can choose to operate under those circumstances, but piracy circumvents choice altogether and takes away control from the creator and the rights-protecting legal environment, which isn't fair to the content creator. |
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msgundam2
 Posts: 271 Location: Indiana USA |
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He can always try Patreon. Many of the porn artist I like use it. Like Doxy.
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Momoka16
 Posts: 3 |
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Patreon is good for English speaking artists, like ShindoL, but it's not good for artists who only speak Japanese.
But besides that, the hentai community as a whole is the biggest bunch of self entitled wankers I have ever seen. Fakku, which has published at least two of Gujira's works, one which is in this pirated book, has gone legit so that artists can get paid, but heaven forbid they try to legally bring the content to the English world. Check out this gigantic thread for the reactions of users after FAKKU went legit and removed all unlicensed work from their site. Over 70 pages of users who flat out refuse to believe that they should pay for the manga they enjoy, or that artists deserve compensation. No matter how much they're explained to that manga doesn't magically appear on the internet for their free enjoyment, they continue to demand it free because it has "always been free" due to heavy pirating. It's worst than the fansub community used to be, probably because they're thinking with their lower heads or something. I don't know, but it makes me sick. |
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vangelionite88
 Posts: 285 |
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that is the nature of the beast..... i mean. honestly if you think you can make a solid living out of making hentai you should rethink your life goals, theres already a mess of h-artists wating to take your place so it does not matter if you quit. its sad, but your not a special talent that deserves compensation for your work.....
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Momoka16
Posts: 3 |
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Please. The same could be said about any manga artist, or any artist in general. Why shouldn't these people be compensated for their work. If you read it and enjoy it, pay them. Artists deserve to be paid for their work. This modern notion that art should just come free no matter what is putting a lot of artists out of work of actually producing art. |
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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Well, yeah, duh, I never said they did deserve it did I? I said should he really waste his energy, threaten his contract with his magizine, stop his dream as a mangaka over something as little as the minute loss by saying he's gonna quit and give up because people downloaded his stuff. ...It's an inevitable fate to be pirated especially as a hentai creator as he is. I'm pretty sure his manga is on every porn site imaginable already. That just means he needs to work harder make more and keep at it and use that energy on creating more instead of threatening to quit. |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4755 |
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Again: it's porn. On the Internet. (Most) people don't pay for porn on the Internet. It's treated as inherently disposable as the, er, product of the whole endeavor. You may personally disagree with that notion, but a huge pushback against the likes of Fakku going legit is hardly something to get surprised about or bent out of shape over. |
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Hoppy800
 Posts: 3331 |
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Fakku's prices can be compared to Ponycan's prices for BDs without none of the good extras Ponycan puts in their $90 BD volumes. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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People said the same thing about Crunchyroll when it went legit. Will it be harder because there is a common perception that porn is free? Perhaps. Piracy will always happen. However, if the IP (intellectual property rights) holders had an easy way to sue uploaders for damages piracy would go way down. Yes, pinpointing the exact damage is hard, but there really should be some amount to deter people. You can't just publicly post IP without being sued for most other things; why should art not be protected the same way? I think the technology is getting better, but still lightyears away and would have to constantly change due to hackers. I think porn and even clean manga is behind where anime stands in terms of distribution. Anime piracy has fallen dramtically due to the amount of simulcast free sources. Sure, free users have to wait 24 hours, but that's pretty much nothing compared to what it used to be. Wait 6 months if it gets licensed.... I think the problem with fakku/porn making the transition is people see it as free even more than anime and worse than that disposable. Few people want to reuse the same porn over and over again and even they do; they don't want to pay for because they are used to it being free or are embarrassed. I do think Fakku will see moderate success, but nothing on the scale of Crunchyroll and it will take time for them to legally grow their catalog again just like what CR did. I do think Fakku is paving the road for Western ability to pay for doujins, which didn't exist before which we should all see is positive. The whiners and perpetual pirates will just go somewhere else until it becomes impossible to find because sites that upload will be legally liable. I think that's still 10-15 years away. I think the ability to pirate western live action stuff is way harder than it used to be; I think eventually hentai, manga, and anime will follow - and if the sites do exist they will be risking financial liability. Those free illegal sites make bank on advertising, which they really shouldn't since it's stolen IP and the creators should be able to make money off a wider audience of people, including the west. Here's an example of a few posters reaction to Fakku removing their content:
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Hoppy800
Posts: 3331 |
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Well, to tell the truth, porn is disposable, if a hentai anime, manga, VN, or novel in a certain genre doesn't sell, there will always be more from someone else, with normal genres you have works that are unique and/or may not have a substitute or a good substitute if lost, there is no good substitute for Macross so supporting the series is a priority same with Gundam even though there are many other mecha anime out there I've seen (which is why I supported the series by importing the games for so long), porn and erotica is just so oversaturated that you can take your chances by piracy and not lose much if not anything as a result, but do that with a normal series (even if it's a popular genre like idol/music) and 90% of the time you lose.
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heinrichk.05
Posts: 4 Location: Brazil |
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That's a pity, since Gujira was one of my favorite ero mangakas
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I can only assume you think this because you personally only know non-hentai manga, and have no idea of what is popular or what sells, or what kind of categories even make up hentai manga. Hentai manga has a lot of variety. Art styles have a lot of variety. I hate Gundam. I rather read any other giant robo manga anyday, and I NEVER liked Macross. There's plenty out there that replaces it for me. Does the fact I generally don't like giant robo stories mean that it's replaceable to you? I'm going to assume not. Hentai manga is a CATEGORY of manga. It is manga first and foremost. It's licensed and produced just like any other giant robo manga out there. Just like any manga category there are some really crappy artist, and there are some amazing artists that make the best sellers lists every time they produce a book. There are very dedicated manga fans overseas that import and pay for their favorite artists when previously they had very little options in buying locally. My point here is you can't write off something just because you think of it nothing more than porn. We have erotic woodblock prints from Japan hanging in American museums. Look up the Vatican castration to see what they did to artwork we consider fine art today, all because they thought it was nothing more than pornography. Art is subjective. That means that when you judge it, you need to always keep in mind that your opinion on what makes art art is based on your personal opinions, feelings, or tastes. But it also means you are not the sole judge on whether it is or not art. |
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Hoppy800
Posts: 3331 |
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Comparing what I said to the Vatican Castration is unnecessary, what I said has nothing to do with censorship. Also, I may have poorly worded my statement and it may have seemed that I went overboard. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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That's a number that can't really be determined. It can be estimated with enough study of online piracy, but even then, it'll be extremely difficult because you're dealing with groups that don't want to be noticed by any sort of authority figure, not even scholars. It's also a bad idea for companies to disclose sales numbers or profits, at least until long after release (or it's an industry standard, like movies).
Reminds me of a bit of irony: Commercials are also protected under the same copyright laws as television programming, so it's also piracy to go distribute other people's advertising. I thought that companies wouldn't care much about old commercials, so I put a few of them up onto YouTube. I got hit with some copyright strikes for them. A shame, as commercials are the type of television footage most vulnerable to getting lost forever.
And I'd like to give a counter-example: As my parents come from a country where piracy is rampant in pretty much every non-food, non-service industry, I HAVE known a lot of people for whom bootleg media far outnumbers their official media. I mentioned on another topic that there is an uncle of mine who has two sons, both of whom are very into Pokémon. He will only let them watch whatever fansubs are put up onto YouTube. He will not buy them any merchandise, and he does not subscribe to any streaming service despite living in the United States. When they came over to my house a few years ago, that was the first time they had ever played a Pokémon game (Pokémon Rumble on the Wii) that wasn't some PC pirated version. There is no vendetta against the companies that make this stuff. Just that thriftiness and frugality are ingrained into the culture. That Americans are frequently seen turning their noses up at bootleg stuff and will only buy official things (read: EXPENSIVE) confuses a lot of them. There's also the perspective of kids acting on their own; most of them don't have the disposable income to purchase things on their own. If their parents aren't paying close attention to what they're doing, they will likely turn to piracy simply because it's free and has few to no ads. It takes some time and some maturity for a kid to start thinking in terms of sustainability and benefit to content producers; until then, as far as they're concerned, entertainment IS just something that magically appears somewhere for people to enjoy as they see fit.
What about a disclaimer system, or something on the cover artwork indicating as such? That way, you can have a shorthand for people who are actively seeking the stuff out. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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The manga industry is tough as it is, maybe more so for hentai manga artists. I think it's good that he and other manga artists express their frustrations with the piracy scene, because consumers need to know that their piracy is affecting the rights of actual people, not just nameless faces on the other side of the world. I personally don't think piracy is an inevitable fate, it's more the result of people turning to the cheap, easy, unpunished choice. As technological protections improve and culture evolves, I think it's going to get better until it's much more of an underground scene than it is now.
That's one of the consequences of piracy people tend to overlook, how it culturally devalues content and sets expectations that it should either be cheap or essentially free. |
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