Forum - View topic"New" Low - Hacking
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disguested
Posts: 1 |
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heh, you may or may not have heard of suteki-yume's interesting demise yet, but nevertheless the conversation in the main channel made me a bit disgusted. Basically the operators were commenting on how they used hacked bots for distros.
Has it come to this? Forget subbing licensed anime, hacking distros with pride, "stealing" a groups title out of malice, and even attack bots in idiotic irc wars of what I thought were long gone? Now this raises the real question, if this is true, how many groups do this knowledgeably? Has this really become standard practice, have ethics become forgotten? Whatever, you read the log and decide, I'm too tired and disgusted to think straight. Here's the link, it's an uncut log (if you want the whole session I can post it, but someone needs to host it). link: http://www.geocities.com/animeethics/11.08.03Suteki-Yume.mIRC-X.minus.some.drama.log it's geocities, so if someone could host this in case it goes down it'd be appreciated Crossposted on AnimeSuki http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=17096 |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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It was, quite seriously, only a matter of time before groups began using rooted/trojaned boxes as anime distros..
.. of course, it's quite easy to find these zombie boxes; they're the same boxes that are used to DDOS websites, to relay spam, to distribute viruses and so forth. It only takes a quick portscan on a local subnet (that you own!) to turn up The fact of the matter is that people don't know how to secure their boxes, and thus allow this sort of thing to go on. People can run secure Win98 boxes, if they bother to take precautions about what they're doing. We can see the exact same progression here as we saw with warez groups in the past.. first, it's a benign means of distributing software, then egos became important and 0-day warez emerged. Now warez distros use hacked computers to serve their files, oftentimes in foreign countries to complicate law enforcement. Fansubs have ego-wars (sure, they existed even in the beginning with William Chow) but not until recently have they had same-day fansubs. Even now, groups are pushing for faster and faster releases. I wonder how long it'll be until the groups get access to broadcasters in Japan and get copies of episodes before they even air... After all, isn't that what warez groups do nowadays? Picking up gold copies hot off the presses by insiders? And while some fansub groups might call themselves noble or honorable, in reality they're all still feeding the same problem, and that is illegal online video distribution. |
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hellsing
 Posts: 248 Location: top of mt Fuji killing sin with Titus. |
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Sorry but im really confused without yelling or dissing me could you please tell me whats going on.
 
Im not experienced to this type of discussion. Sigh. Dont tease me. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Well, without getting overly technical... IRC is a chat protocol. Try imagining an AIM discussion, but with a lot of people all talking at the same time. There are hundreds of networks, and each network holds thousands of "channels".. and users join these channels to talk to other users. These "channels" are how users find other users to talk to. If you know the right channel name, you can talk to these other users. Obviously, #anime, #manga and such are very common names, but there are plenty of others. You can find highly specialized channels, pornographic channels, programming channels, help channels, drug channels, warez channels, intelligent discussion channels, and such.. If you know the right names, that is. Many of these channels are by invite-only, so you need to know someone on the inside before you can be allowed in. Others are secret, and protect their name, so that if you don't know what it is, you won't accidentally stumble across it. Anyway, IRC allows you to transfer files from one person to another; this process is called "DCC". It's possible to write programs that respond to these DCC requests, and they are typically called "bots", or "robots". These are automated programs that respond to DCC requests. These bots have a large number of files, and users can request any of these files, via DCC.. so if a "bot" has "Cookie-san_no_Newsroom_06.avi", a user can DCC request it.. the bot will then send "Cookie-san_no_Newsroom_06.avi" to the user that requested it. So what does all of this mean? Well, basically... the point of contention is made clear by intermezzo: Where do you think those bots came from? Thin air? Bandwidth costs money. Rather than buying bandwidth any paying for it themselves, or having fellow fans donate bandwidth, they find computers that are running backdoors and use them as "distros". The owners of these computers do NOT know that they are being used as a distro, and may not even know that they have anime on their computer. In other words, the bandwidth being used to distribute fansubs is _stolen_ from people who don't know better. A bit further down the line, they start discussing "channel humping" bots -- large numbers of these bots that join channels, and tell users to come to the Anime Junkies channel instead. (AJ, of course, was the group that didn't respond favorably to UV's request to pull Ninja Scroll, remember?) This is one form of IRC attack -- if you have a large number of computers the channel and leave again really fast, you'll flood the connections of some users, which forces them to be disconnected. It's not "illegal" per se, but it is annoying. If what's being said is accurate, then... 1) Some anime groups intentionally got out and crack computers for the purpose of putting bots on the computer, so that files can be distributed online without their knowledge. 2) Other groups don't crack computers, but simply re-use the already cracked ones. In both cases, it's an illegal activity. I likened it to the warez scene, which had been doing this stuff for years. Modern fansubs have not been "for the fan" for quite a while. Instead, modern fansub groups (particularly AJ, but there are others) are using fansubs as a means of self-promotion. That is why 0-day anime has evolved (under 24-hours from broadcast to subbed copy on the net) and why groups are putting more extensive logos on their releases; it's not merely to look good, it's to spread their name and get famous. .. and these groups, much like warez groups, are using illegal means to attain that fame. |
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hellsing
Posts: 248 Location: top of mt Fuji killing sin with Titus. |
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Okay now I have one more question for you knowing all of this how old are you?
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Ryuko
 Posts: 104 |
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That was an awfully rude question to ask someone who just spent a lot of effort specifically answering your question.
I'd like to say thank you, Cookie-san, I understand a lot better what you are talking about now. ^_^ |
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Delthayre
 Posts: 414 Location: One of the good United States |
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A little searching around the site would rather easily reveal that. According to the staff page, Cookie is 22 years old, although it may be out of date, but that would be by no more than a year or two. And what's with the rolleyes smiley? Are you getting paid for using it? |
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hmgamer
Posts: 1 |
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I think some mod or admin should remove this topic because well the log shows a lot of people IP's. If some movie/anime business sees this and looks at the log and see those IP's. They might sue them because thats what is happening the USA right now(RIAA), it will cost those people maybe thousands of dollars. Those people might sue Anime News Network because Anime News Network let this user show the log in this topic with their IP's. Even my IP shows in that log and I don't want to get sued.
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Not that it should make any difference, but... animenewsnetwork.com/staff.php
That's rather ridiculous. First off, if someone from the industry wanted to do any such thing they are more that capable of finding the appropriate IRC channels and getting people's IP addys there, they don't need some log. Secondly, nothing in that log would be damning in a court of law, showing up in an IRC channel isn't illegal, you have to actually be caught serving files to be in trouble. Third, if the anime industry wants to sue people for trading licensed anime, they have my blessing.  In case you haven't noticed Anime News Network is very much against the trading of licensed fansubs.
Fourth, no, we can't be sued. ANN didn't put that log there, a visitor to the site did. Also, the log isn't even on ANN, its on Geocities, the only thing on ann is a link. Thirdly, there's nothing illegal about posting that log in the first place, it comes from a publicly accessible IRC channel on a publicly accessible IRC network. So no, I have no reason to lock this thread. Besides, it's not like you're logged as doing anything even remotely wrong, as far as the log goes, you showed up and idled. It doesn't show anything you you may or may not have done with any bots... |
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chibikit
Posts: 4 Location: From the land beyond dreams... |
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[Edited for clarity by the original writer]
I don't know if it's just me but ANN has been very anti-digisub in its bias, so let me give the perspective of this issue from someone who is pro-digisubs (and is actively involved in producing them). Undeniably the hacking of boxes to provide distro bots and the use of channel humpers is, if not illegal, then very very annoying to say the least. I am no big fan of hackers, so I view the whole "Hey, my DVD ripping group don't have no distro so let's steal someone else's bandwidth!" idea with extreme distaste. And as a regular IRC user, I am utterly aware of how annoying those channel humpers are and how distruptive they are to good conversation on channels (yes there IS such a thing). However, I take issue with Cookie's comparing of this with the similar progression in warez. Until I read this post, as far as I knew fansub groups use their own personal bandwidth for distro purposes. While I now know that it is possible that bots can be provided via bandwidth banditry, I don't think this is a common practice among fansub groups nor will it be in the future - even in DVD groups I doubt that this activity is the norm, though they would have more reason than most to not use their own bandwidth especially if they stay in a R1 country. Digisubber are no different in their love of anime than the VCR fansubbers of old; why would the majority of them choose to indulge in an activity that only makes anime seem like a hobby for obsessed fanboys? The pure ego of a select few is a poor excuse to brand all digisubbers as potential hackers. Hence, comparison of the evolution of digisubs to warez by this aspect is, to me, inaccurate. Additionally, unlike warez, digisubbing isn't as simple as getting a raw and slapping a random translation onto it before sending it out on the Wild Wild 'Net. The fact that a translation (and several QCs in the case of good digisub groups) has to be done prior to this puts a limit as to how fast a release can be made. Unless someone makes a machine that can accurately translate Japanese to English, including the nuances and cultural references, I doubt if we'll ever be able to see a 0-day fansub at all. My point of disputing Cookie's comparison? Simply this: digisubbing is still done for the fans. Even AJ does this; they cater to the impatient, undiscerning section of anime fandom. Far from criminal, this labour of love can play a large role in swaying the opinion of a possible anime DVD buyer. Even for R1 DVD rippers, this holds true to an extent, especially for fans who are not in an R1 country; I would never have bought Boogiepop Phantom, for example, if I did not download and view the DVD rips (which, by the way, are never as perfect as the actual DVD itself), nor would I be actively saving to buy the Mobile Suit Gundam DVDs (dubbed as it may be). Bringing things back on topic, the idea of digisubbing being not illegitimate and for the fans doesn't change the fact that hacking to distro releases is utterly disgusting, nor does the service of hackers for some DVD ripping groups make every single digisub group out there somehow guilty and culpable for a crime they themselves did not commit. Perhaps ANN journalists and editors should take heed of the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", or seek to be more objective in their writing, before using the next controversy down the line to damn digisubbing. PS. The big and noticeable logos are, for the most part, an anti-piracy measure - fansubbers are aware that their work has been sold off by unscrupulous people as originals and the existence of these logos and the accompanying "If you have bought this you've been cheated" tag seeks to prevent this misrepresentation. We are not as egotistical as Cookie would love to believe.
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Steventheeunuch
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Not really, they're simply anti- 0-sec anime fansubs
What makes you think that? just because they like Anime, doesn't mean they wont be cheap, annoying little turd-brains
Though I wont raise issues about love because I honestly don't ebelive you can LOVE anime, I will mention that most fansub groups, even the "oh the REALLY good ones", rarely take time to even bother making sure things are right. If they really showed love and what not, then it wouldn't matter if the episode was out 3 days to 3 weeks after broadcast.
Because, despite what a lot of people think, a lot of anime fans ARE obsessed fanboys.
Ego spreads like wildfire
I remember being told about some old WHR fansubs that had the groups Logo shake with the title or something like that. Those sorts of things aren't nessecary. To avoid piracy, you do not require a big, stupid, ugluy looking dancing naked man with lobsters for legs or something equally stupid. If you want to avoid piracy, have a subtitle coming up at a reasonable stop saying your groups name or "dont pirate this". As it is, not all Fansub groups stick to the "this is a fansub, please buy the official release when you can", and if they don't put those things in and yet have a big flashy opening animation BEFORE the show starts, then hell, I don't know how far you can get with "misrepresentation"
I know this is to quote an animejunkies source but, we still haven't gotten over Mass Naked Child Event, nor will we.
No, but you've also got to take into account that with software, it still takes time to get it home, rip it, zip it up etc. That's pretty much the nature of 0-day releases, is the fact that it gets done not as soon as possible, but before then, at the risk of quality and gosh knows what else.
Is there anywhere saying they HAVE to cater for whinging fan babies? I'd like to use an overstate comparison by saying that well, what would happen if my doctor was treating my right hand for cancer and it got so bad that it needed amputating. now, for some reason, my doctor cut my left hand off, and I was left handed etc, then quickly cut my right hand off too. I go to complain however, he did it for my benefit even though he screwed up. The point is here, is that most shows are licensed before they even air. I don't care how noble AJ may really seem, by fueling the impatient fans, most of them are less likely to go out and buy any official release, thereby draining artists and production crews of money
Yes, of course when fansubs get onto this rant about being the only means in which to preveiw anime, they tend to forget things like CN, techTV, anime Network, CPM sampler discs, Newtype Magazine, but oh wait, you've still got to pay for them. Diddums.
it's good that you still buy DVDs, but do you honestly think that everyone holds true to your own morals? The entire point of saying the fansub scene is becoming more like the warez scene is due to the fact that people are downloading these files, [b]and still aren't buying the relative DVDs.[/quote]. Lets face it, there are those who can't tell the difference. WIth the ever growing variations of the Mpeg-4 codecs out there, plus filters, .OGM containers, 'better-than-company" translations, why bother with a release? It's that sort of mentallity that applies to so many anime fans who yet realise that what they do pretty much stops shows they like from ever acheiving commercial success, oh because someone wants to enjoy the show on home video or possibly dubbed? It's kind of selfish if you think about it. and mean
Notice that they aren't speak as journalists, they're speaking as fans. If they were speaking as journalists, it'd be 1. spoken in a better manner (no offence), and 2. spoken on the front page, where journalism belongs ------------------------------------------ Of course, what I say here isn't a reflection on the whole anime community itself, but hell, it's certianly getting to the stage where a decent percentage are thinking "hey, the translations of these are done by a fan, not a company, so of course they have to be 100% correct!". Of course, I wish if you could reply to my argument, as I have yet to have a somewhat intelligent conversation on fansubs (it works down to annoying fanboys or 14+ page threads where people keep saying "fansubs are illegal" "but fansubs are good!" "but fansubs are illegal!" "but fansubs are good!" Meh |
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radicaledward
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I'm not going to say anything about the digi-subbing aspect of the discussion (I've said my piece before and don't feel like retyping it every month), but I do want to jump in with some thoughts on the IRC bots and channels.
From what the log and disguested said in the posts it doesn't sound like they are using random boxes for xdcc servers, but rather hijacking a running xdcc server on another channel and using part of its bandwidth for distro. To run a xdcc server on a zombie box for just the random computer on the 'Net would be kinda hard to do because the box might always be on-line or connected to IRC, also the program necessary to convert the box to a zombie would have to do more work to connect it to IRC and receive the files to host for the xdcc server ~ and most of the digi-sub groups on the 'Net that are in it for bragging rights are too lazy to go through all of that work. While all of this is possible, it would probably be more hassle that it would be worth, and even the most oblivious computer user would probably notice the fact that 300+ Mb of hard drive space is suddenly gone and they have little bandwidth when they are online. However, most xdcc boxes are only used for that and the person maintaining the box is unlikely to notice right away. Warez groups on the other hand tend to be a different story. Up until when high-bandwidth and CD-RW's became common place the groups actually had to do some work to put their, ah, "product" on the Internet for distro. What they would have to do is circumvent any copy protection and compress the files to a more manageable download size in order to distro them; average turn-around time would be on the order of several months after the software (Usually games) was released. Now what most of the groups do is create ISO images of the CD(s) and distro them. But once again for warez groups they can't just pick a random box to hack, they tend to target a box with high bandwidth and good uptime (Corporate servers are known to be targets) |
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herbkir
Posts: 251 Location: Michigan |
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As to whether fansubbers (and downloaders of these subs) harm or benefit the legitimate anime license holders, it's still an open question. The anime licensees themselves will tell us when they think fansubbers and downloaders are hurting them. They'll do so by filing RIAA-style lawsuits against these people.
As to using sneaky bots for distribution, I can't see a defense for that. What they are doing is hijacking someone else's computer and bandwidth resources to further their own purposes. They are stealing transport from someone else in order to distribute their goods. How noble! Fansubbers once took the time to do their translations correctly, motivated by their love for this form of storytelling. Now, it seems there's a race to be the first one out with a fansub, for the ego boost of saying "Nya Nya, I'm faster than you are!!" And if their egotistical translation is sloppy, oh well. And if they have to steal transport in order to get their egotistical product widely distributed, oh well. It's all in service to a noble cause, right? |
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Sword of Whedon
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Exactly. It seems that fansubbers today, instead of taking pride in their work, spend most of their time making the lyrics dance during songs for karaoke.
Back in the days when it took more than a cheap capture card and a few pieces of freeware ($500-1000 in gear, not counting decks) people cared. They dropped huge bank for equipment with a single purpose. They also spent a week or more an episode to get it right. They took pride in their work, spellchecked and fixed awkward translations. Today it's just AICN "FIRST!!!" mentality. Why did they do this? Because they were fans, and they knew they had one chance to get it right. That's another failing of digisubs. The ease of change. The general attitude seems to be "we'll fix it later". Now I'm sure all the n00b fans (and by that I mean Eva-era on up) are grumbling about the old fogey, but think of this: These digisubbers are subbing already-licensed series. Series that were licensed before the pencil hit the paper. Given that they a- shouldn't be subbing them in the first place and b- at best the titles will have a shelf life of a 6 months. If you want to watch the shows now, I believe several studios like Sunrise are now offering them for download for a small fee(2-300 yen) A plea to all digisubbers- Start doing the old series. As far as I can tell no one has Yamato in its raw Japanese form. I saw someone has started doing Mazinger Z, good for them! How about Galaxy Express TV? Why aren't they doing these? Because they can't just download a rip and sub that. Subbing them requires dropping not-insignifigant bank, which is exactly what fansubbers used to do, dropping $4-500 on box sets and then $50/episode for translation. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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I, myself, am very anti-digisub, having spent my formative years as an anime fan in direct contact with older, jaded fansubbers. ANN, as an organization, is mildly anti-digisub, although the only major editorial we've had on fansubs in recent times is the one on AJ. Yes, there's bias. We don't deny that.. OTOH, AJ also seriously shot themselves in the foot on that one, so it's hard to separate ANN's official stance from _Chris's opinion_ on the matter.
You could ask that of DreamCast pirates. Before Sega abandoned the DC, they were simply providing a service to those unable to buy the games themselves... ... and after Sega abandoned the DC (Sega claimed they were losing hundreds of millions to piracy) these same groups that Sega slammed, slammed Sega back, claiming they were "saving" the scene that Sega had abandoned.. even though Sega was saying that they were the REASON they had abandoned their own product.
Some groups do exactly that -- they translate and release, sometimes with spelling errors, translation mistakes and more. Some DC groups released games that wouldn't even play when burnt.. but they still released them, because they wanted to be first.
It was done by a single person back in 2000, during Love Hina's broadcast. A decent translation, too. I was sitting in the IRC channel as he was working on it. It seems it took around 24 hours for Peace Maker Kurogane 4 to be released by one of the groups; it broadcast 10/28 (as near as I can tell, anyway), and has a digisub release on 10/29. 3 groups put up episode 5 within hours of one another, once again about 1 day after its broadcast. Episode 6 and 7 both appear to have several groups (once again) vying for fastest release. It certainly has happened, and certainly will continue to happen.
I should note that many DC games were downsampled or had music tracks removed simply because of their size. This minor loss of data didn't encourage pirates to buy DC games.
Sorry. I hadn't intended to include everyone; When I had said (roughly) that some groups hack, and some groups steal those hacked boxes, I didn't mean to convey that all groups have to fit into one of those two situations.
Why not keep your name out of your releases, then? Just put a link to a 3rd party legal resource, and a "don't buy, sell, or rent this anime!" tag in the anime somewhere (op, cm, and ed seem typical). Seems reasonable enough to me. I didn't need personal recognition when I worked on stuff; thus neither should you? |
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