Forum - View topicGundam for dummies
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sykosteve
 Posts: 356 Location: columbus, ga |
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eh...I just forgot  That's something I intend to watch as well.
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zaphdash
 Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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It's really hard to make it all fit in such a way that makes sense, and ultimately it's not really that important anyway. I disagree with penguintruth that it's largely symbolic -- I think it's meant to be taken at face value, Turn A is supposed to take place after everything else and within the same universe (although the official canon is that Turn A is itself an alternate universe, albeit an alternate universe in which all timelines are united). But for the very reason that he gave -- that it's not really possible to put all the timeline's together in a workable order -- Tomino kind of glossed over how it all fits together. It's not really significant anyway. What matters is that they're all in the same universe -- how they each fit into that universe is actually inconsequential. That said, it can all fit together if you really want to force it. It just takes a little imagination, a little forgiveness for the AUs being apparently unaware of the history that preceded them, and awareness that you do have thousands of years of timeline to work with (my memory's spotty so I might just be making stuff up, but I think it's roughly 10,000 years from UC 0001 to CC 2345, so basically you just have to fit each timeline into a timespan of about 7600 years). The first time I watched TAG, I came up with this progression: UC -> AW -> FC -> AC -> CC. Then SEED came out and kind of complicated things a bit, but I think it can fit...sort of. I'd stick it in between UC and AW. I can explain my reasoning if you want, but I don't really feel like typing it all out unless I know someone actually cares to hear it. Talking about Turn A Bang theory can be a massive time waster, particularly because it's definitely not perfect. It kind of fits, but only if you want it to fit and so are willing to look past confounding factors that don't necessarily completely contradict it but do definitely call it into question. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Well, my thinking is:
You can definitely have Turn A after any of the other series, way in the future, like thousands of years or w/e SEED/UC/Wing all dont seem possibly to fit together because theyre all based on happening in a world very similar to the real world (although a bit into the future). For it to be possible the world would have to be destroyed, rebuild, etc to the point were everything starts over and it takes so long that nobody even remembers the previous world. If thats the case, were talking about this over millions of years. I guess that is one possible theory. Otherwise though, you can at best say one of those fits on as the start of the timeline and the other ones dont fit. I figured X and G could theoretically fit in there somewhere cause at least they take place in a sorta post-apocalyptic world, so some time between the main series and the much later Turn A, that world could occur. Really, theres no clear awnser, Its not like the series were created specifically to fit together. Wether they do is all speculation. |
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jetz
 Posts: 2148 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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About my "crazy" classmate. Looking back, I think she was just trying to keep me from borrowing her copy. When she first bought it, she said that she was going to let me borrow it after she watches it. When she did finish watching it, I asked if I could borrow it then and she said "It's a waste of time. I won't let you borrow it just so I can spare you from the boredom and agony I had to go through." (pretty sure she used boredom and agony) I can't believe I fell for that.
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8499 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Please - all those series can't POSSIBLY fit into Dark History. We're supposed to believe that the One Year War and the Gundam Fights happened in the same universe? Nonesense. Dark History as the culmuniation of all the timelines is a ridiculous concept Tomino made up that is either A) symbolic or B) a huge failure of a concept. And since I'd like to respect Tomino and not think of him as an imbecile, I choose to believe A. You can look at ANYTHING the way you want to and have it fit together - if I decide that the Leijiverse fits together perfectly I can come up with some theory, but it doesn't. In this case, even if Tomino says it does, it clearly doesn't. |
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zaphdash
Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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So then what is it "symbolic" of? If he's not literally trying to unify all the timelines, what does Turn A represent? The show is pretty cut and dry about it -- all these random scenes and mobile suits and whatnot from past Gundam shows represent periods of lost history. You may not think it can possibly fit together, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time something completely nonsensical happened in a Gundam series. I really don't think there's anything deeper to read into it. Turn A takes place in the distant future, thousands of years after all the other stories played out. And this is exactly why Tomino left the details of Black History ambiguous, because he knew if he actually tried to put it together fanboys would cry foul. (Well, that, and he's utterly unfamiliar with the shows he didn't make.) Ultimately it's Tomino's story, so if he says it fits, then it does, no matter what objections you may raise against it (unless you buy into all the postmodernist deconstruction "the artist's intent is irrelevant" BS, I guess, then you just make your own rules). Tomino is clearly no big fan of the alternate universes. It seems much more logical to believe that he literally wanted to unite them within his own story and take some control back over the franchise he created than to symbolically unite them in some celebration of all the Gundam shows, even the ones he didn't make and has never watched and has no interest in (not to mention all the ones he did make and now hates and regrets having made). If Turn A is a literal culmination of all the shows, he gains some power to alter the general tone of the entire franchise; if it's just symbolic, it's an empty celebration of a bunch of shows he hates and/or has never seen. So does your respect for him allow him to assert control over his own creation, or do you respect that he let Sunrise manipulate him into creating a hollow tribute to something about which he has mixed feelings at best? Here was my reasoning on the ordering I came up with after I first watched TAG six or seven years ago, although SEED sort of screwed everything up when it came out. UC goes first, of course. Following UC, you get the most UC-like AU, Gundam X. I dunno if I buy into this myself, but I've heard others propose before that the OYW was the "1st Space War" (where Gundam X's was the 7th Space War). So in that case, OYW was 1, Grypps was 2, and so on. If you just go by the major shows/movies, you don't find six major wars in the UC era, but clearly there was some technological regression by the time GX rolled around anyway (which, coincidentally, also happens in the way late UC stories), so we can probably assume that the 7th Space War was a comfortable amount of time after the events of Victory Gundam and, knowing how war-prone the people of the Universal Century are, an extra war or two here or there isn't really all that shocking. After Gundam X, we get few remaining O'Neill cylinder colonies, a trashed planet, and a people who are quite wary of warfare...sounds kinda like the origins of the FC timeline, just gotta assume the remaining cylinder colonies were wiped out at some point in the transition (or they still exist and just were never shown in G Gundam). Gundam Wing is the odd one out here. Still doesn't fit in too well. Luckily we've already gotten three timelines out of the way and we've probably only used up a few hundred years doing it, so here's where we can fall back on the fact that we've got another 7000 years before the beginning of the Correct Century (and unless it was covered in the novels, I don't think it was ever stated that Turn A's technology-melting rampage took place at the beginning of the CC calendar, so we potentially have another one or two thousand years to work with -- 8000-9000 years total). Considering that 7000 years ago in real life we were still just figuring out the whole agriculture/living in cities/etc thing, it's not too hard to see FC getting somehow destroyed in the future, some regression taking place, getting built back up to AC, and then more destruction. Or you could just go with the joke theory that some have proposed, that "Gundam Wing" was actually just a TV show that aired in the Future Century (doesn't mesh so well with Corin Nander having apparently met Wing Zero face to face, though, unless he was an actor before going into suspended animation). SEED is problematic no matter where you stick it, though. Put it between UC and AW (obviously before the technology regression of the 7th Space War took place...), but you have to explain away what happened to the PLANTs and the Coordinators. Maybe all the PLANTs were used in the colony drop of the 7th Space War, maybe all the Coordinators were killed off in the war (or died out due to their apparent breeding problems or something). Since the various AUs weren't made with each other in mind (except TAG itself, of course), obviously they don't account for the differences between them, but a lot can happen over several millennia. You could alternatively put SEED at the very end -- it would explain where all those O'Neill cylinders that we saw leaving the solar system during the Black History video came from, since all the UC/AW ones evidently got wiped out at some point (mostly in 7SW). Ultimately though, SEED doesn't fit in that well anywhere -- luckily we've got thousands of years for things to be destroyed and rebuilt. As long as people are never starting from scratch, it's perfectly believable that the space colonies could be destroyed and rebuilt a number of times over these many thousands of years, so the FC colonies got destroyed at some point, then AC came around, they got destroyed at some point, and CE came around -- if we put SEED at the end instead of between UC and AW. Anyway, it doesn't really matter that much. I'm just kind of BSing on SEED right now because I've never put too much thought into where it goes -- I considered this whole issue back when I first saw TAG and then basically put it to bed, except if I feel like throwing in my two cents when it occasionally comes up (as I do right now). As far as just getting the timelines together, it's not really that hard to put it together as long as you're willing to deal with the fact that lots of details are necessarily missing. You might refuse to believe that OYW and the Gundam Fight could occur in the same universe, but I don't know why it's all that unbelievable. Every Gundam show has its crazy miracle technology, and honestly the G Gundam stuff isn't terribly more outlandish than all the Newtype nonsense from the UC. If I'm supposed to believe that Kamille can summon ghosts and manifest an energy barrier around his Gundam, that Amuro can push back a giant asteroid from hitting the Earth, that Shakti can singlehandedly end a war with her mind powers, then I don't think it's so hard to believe that martial artists can wear body suits to control their Gundams. It's just anime. If Tomino says they go together, then they go together; I'm not gonna stress out over the incongruencies between shows. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8499 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Tomino could also say that Char Aznable is a homosexual alien who was reincarnated as Chibodee Crocket in G Gundam, who is secretely the grandson of Duo Maxwell who travelled through time, but unless he explains HOW, it doesn't add up. Fit them together as well as you can (I'm sure it's fun), but those timelines don't belong together. Unless Tomino explains how they fit together, I can only interpret as being a symbol of the culmunation of the Gundam franchise, or a celebration of Gundam as a whole. There's a reason why everybody refers to Turn A as an alternative branch - because that's the only way it makes any comfortable sense. Hey! Here's a theory I've read - the universe in which the Universal Century timeline is set has actually been born out of the universe in which Space Runaway Ideon took place. Sure, Ideon came after, but what not? Originally, didn't Tomino want to pull together all his programs? That is another thing I've read. If he had, then would we have to believe that Dunbine and Gundam Wing take place in the same universe, simply because Tomino said? He just wanted a project that combined the Gundam productions that came before it in some way. To take it literally is absurd. |
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zaphdash
Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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Eh, whatever. I do think it's meant to be taken at face value, but I'm not really interested in trying to change your mind. There are rumors about "Turn A Space," as you alluded to -- that Tomino had wanted to combine all his work into one, but Sunrise talked him down to just unifying Gundam. Not sure if this rumor has ever actually been substantiated, though. I've heard about it from a lot of places, but I've never actually heard any direct quote from Tomino about it (doesn't mean it's not out there, just that I've never seen it so I take the whole rumor with a grain of salt). It would have been pretty ridiculous, granted, but I figure they're all Tomino's stories, so if he wants to say they go together, then that's his prerogative. You're free to believe otherwise if you want to, but personally I think that a show means whatever its creator wanted it to mean. Of course, since he never actually made Turn A Space, it's a moot point. Just to clear up though, Turn A is, in the official canon, still an "alternate universe," but it's an alternate universe in which all the other universes took place. So from the UC perspective, Turn A doesn't lie in the distant future, but from the Turn A perspective, UC did happen in the distant past (if that makes any sense). Turn A's an alternate universe not so much because it doesn't make sense otherwise, but because Sunrise says it's an alternate universe. |
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The Seventh Son
Posts: 380 Location: Where your missing socks end up. |
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well all i have to say is good luck finding a lot of other Gundam titles out there in stores these days. the shelves are swamped with SEED and Destiny.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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The bottom line is, only Tomino knows what his intention was. All we can do is speculate.
I wouldnt even be suprised if he didn't have one clear choice in mind. In my opinion though, there are 3 possibilities. 1) its just symbolic or w/e 2) A few of the series fit on the same timeline but not all of em. 3) They all fit on the timeline but with spaces of thousands of years inbetween in which civilization is destroyed and rebuilt. I really dont see how its possible to fit UC, SEED, and Wing on the same timeline. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Actually, most of it is pretty easy to find in cheap collections. Zeta is easy to find either in the singles or the LE set (TRSI still has copies available for $80 in their weekly specials every week) and just about everything else is available in collections with the original (dub only) TV series and SEED being the only exceptions.
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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I have been watching a lot of Gundam titles lately. MS08th team, 0083, Zeta and now Double Zeta. Of course, all are good except ZZ.
Errr....ZZ is driving me insane. Lousy music, lousy artwork and lousy characters. I am giving up on ZZ, a complete waste of time. Even Harman Karn is disappointing, she looked so promising in Zeta. Should I continue? Is there anyting worth watching in ZZ? I noticed that there will be new Gundam series this year MS Gundam 00, do you think it's going to be good? Good that they are starting something new away from Seed and Seed Destiny. I don't know how Seed can continue with another series. There is not enough death of major characters, it's as if the author of Seed and S.Destiny is unwilling to sacrifice key Characters. Character deaths is I think a key factor why UC Gundam titles are so interesting and survive the test of time. Of course, UC series is helped by the charisma of Char Aznable. Let's face it, none of the characters (Shinn, Athrun, Kira and Lacus Clyne) come close to even being charismatic. It's hard to explain in words, but Char's charisma is special, like magic. I am not so thrilled by Amuro. 
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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I watched the UC series as they were coming out, so you can imagine the disappointment I had when ZZ was released especially since it shared most of the same staff. My hopes would be that the series in Gundam tradition would be turned into a trilogy. I would say that the first slightly interesting episodes are 18-22 which introduce Puru and delves a bit into Haman. There is a stretch of actual good episodes in the mid-30s (the Kamiyu/Puru 2 episode) then the series settles in mediocrity for the last dozen episodes. If this was turned into a trilogy the movies really could condense the first 18 episodes into half an hour without any real loss. On the plus side ZZ has some of my favorite MS like the hulking Geymark, the huge Quin Mantha or the massive Doben Wolf. The second half of the series had so many over the top MS complete with reflector bits, incom systems, an insane amount of newtypes and clones. |
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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I can't continuing with ZZ, I'm at episode 24. I have to get to episode 30? No Can Do, enough is enough.The battles look like kittens trying to cat fight. If you watched this as it was coming out, the disappointment can be shocking. ZZ is nothing like Zeta. I was in Singapore in the early and mid 80s, I was about 11-14 years old. I don't know which Gundam titles aired in Singapore because I did not like the artwork and could not understand the plots. All I could remember was robots bash each other on land and in space. Older relatives tried to explain to me that the pilot of one of the Gundams fell in love with a girl and someone else is jealous, in the end, the girl died, it was an accident and very sad. I recalled the artwork very clearly because it was bad when compared to the Shoujo "Candy Candy". I cried when I saw Fa and Emma in Zeta a few weeks ago, the artwork looked familiar. It has been 20 years. I picked up Zeta only to find out more about Char. Familiar scenes of robots grabing and bashing each other with fist fights. Now, I understand why I gave up on Gundam, the plots are too complex for girls aged 11-14. Even as an adult, it took a lot of concentration to follow Zeta. Zeta is serious, dark and complex. I definitely like it now.
I need a break from Gundam, Zeta was too complex and heavy going, I'm exhausted by Zeta and don't want to see Harman's end.....sigh.Perhaps, this is the real reason why i avoid watching till the end. I don 't like the ZZ AEUG team. |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Well I have to say it's kind of disappointing to hear such bad things about ZZ. I'll eventually try it out to continue my UC watching, but probably much later down the road, I've already got way too much to watch as it is. I have to say though I probably should have watched Zeta via the movie trillogy, I would have been much less of a trial on me.
Anyways, having just recently finished Zeta, I'd have to agree that it definitely is one of the better Gundam series, but disagree with it being the best. I'd say I still have Wing and SEED rated higher, but only slightly. I just wasn't as into Zeta as I was into those two. They seemed to have more intense battle sequences and more character depth and drama is all. Zeta I'd say is more complex definitely, but complexity isn't everything. It was definitely a very interesting story though, much darker and serious, as well as more complex and interesting with better drama and depth than not only it's predecessor, but most of the UC series I've seen. Like I said definitely one of the better Gundam series, but definitely not the best. The only problem I had with it though is what was the deal with the ending? I mean I know Gundam series usually leave tons of stuff left wide open at the end, and yes, ZZ probably resolves all of that, it was just left feeling way too incmplete is all, like they were expecting it to move on to a sequil, and it just kind of bugged me is all. But yeah, definitely a great series. I'd say I have it #3 behind SEED and Wing in that order.
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