Forum - View topicMoe and it influence on you
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Viga_of_stars
 Posts: 1240 Location: Washington D.C. in the Anime Atelier |
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okay a few months back i found out what moe is. and recently I've been taking a huge liking to moe drawn characters...but then i got into...moe drawn hentai which seems a bit wrong unless i say to myself "theyre 18+ theyre 18+!"
i like the cute style which I've been drawing lately too but moe..hentai....now when i like at a moe drawn girl or boy its...*boing! beep! zoom! whoa! weeeee!* is this how japanese fanboy are? i say to myself. anyway whats your take on Moe? |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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OH GOD SHANA IS HOT
Anyway, with that out of the way, if I've got my definitions straight, moe holds no sexual connotations but instead should elicit a kind of a "You're so cute that I wish I could protect you", almost in a parent-to-child manner. With that said, "moe hentai" seems almost to be an oxymoron, since if it is moe it shouldn't really be sexualizing the character. I'm not sure I know what the proper term is for what it is you are thinking of. I'm tempted to say "loli hentai". That said I am a fan of moe, although I'm not HUGE on it, unlike resident Moe King PantsGoblin (we can have resident anything, can't we?). |
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Malintex Terek
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I really dislike moé, really; characters usually identified as such promote fictional stereotypes of real girls. Rather, I am a big fan of gâr, since characters with that label are ideals that real men can strive for.
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Uhh, you care to explain instead of just throwing out an ambiguous response Malinex? Such as: what is gar?
Somehow, I don't think you meant this. |
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Mephistophilus
 Posts: 200 Location: Fresno, CA, United States |
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From what I understand, gar is the opposite of moe, e.g. another stereotype that happens to fit the traits of a "cool" male character. Basically, gar is another word for really, REALLY cool and "manly". Though, based on this definition, I'm not sure where Mal is coming from, as this seems to be just as unrealistic despite being from the other end, and from other peoples' choices of "gar" characters, this stereotype may not be exactly the best to go for.
As far as moe characters... For some reason, the "cuteness" or innocence of the characters at times draws a sort of protective attachment to the character, despite it being a character. I suppose this is somewhat normal, as that is why characters are developed (to illicit an attachment from the reader/viewer in order to hook them into the content)... But I suppose the protective nature of this attachment seems to come from the whole "Hey, that person seems vulnerable..." aspect of moe and my latent personality and attitudes towards women and/or the innocent. A good case would be Mikuru from SSnY, as she's pretty much an embodiment of what is "moe." She seems quite vulnerable, and you do feel bad about all the grabbing and unexpected undressing. >_> |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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Basically, an anime manly man, to put it in simple terms. It's more 4chan nonsense pretty much, derived from a typo of "gay", inspired by Archer of FSN. Kind of odd Malintex would pick gar as his choice; moe you could actually argue is more realistic, since gar can be a reflection of those macho guys you see in those all Westerns while some Japanese girls actually act somewhat like moe characters to try and be cute. So in terms of realism, gar is a poor alternative to moe (they have just about no relation anyway, so  ).
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Malintex Terek
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Ahh, I guess some introduction is necessary, then.
"gar" is a neologism created by the Anonymous of Yotsuba's /a/ as a contrast to "moe"; while "moe" refers to a character with feminine attributes that instill a great infatuation in observers, "gar" characters provoke simmilar feelings (in men only) through traits exhibiting manliness. Definitions I've heard range from "a character so manly he turns other men gay when they watch him in action" or "a character so badarse/manly one simultaneously defecates gunpowder and pisses one's pants in excitement". What exactly constitutes manliness is under dispute, but Yotsuba recently held an indepenent competition called "SaiGar" to determine the first archetype for GAR, who turned out to be Guts from Berserk. So, traits identified with a gar character would include fortitude, cunning, courage, strength, ingenuity, conviction, and attitude. That being said, I'd much rather watch a "gar" living his life by action or word rather than a "moe" character struggling with the weight of emotions universal to all human beings.
It's not about realism; archetypes/stereotypes might mythical/fictional but there are some truth to them, even if the percieved perfect product doesn't really exist. I would say it to be easier to fashion one's life after a 'gar' character than a 'moe' one, simply because many traits people identify as 'moe' I see as pretty annoyingly damaging (as in, an inability to good, 'tsun-dere' treatment of men, total helplessness/lack of backbone, etc). Popularizing fetishes like in moe fandom seem like a de-humanization of women in my eyes, since people come to expect that behaviour from real girls when they do not act like that. Whereas, there are some men who can fit the moniker of "gar", though in different ways from a warrior like Guts. |
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Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
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Please elaborate on how "gar" characters promote less of a stereotype of men than moé does of women and girls, because I really don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion at all. So you're saying this guy here is an accurate representation of the "ideals men strive for?" I don't know about you, but if I saw anyone that ripped in real life walking around shirtless I'd get the hell out of there ASAP. Just look at how beefy this guy is, even his neck meat looks like it could take on a grown man. Gar and moé are honestly on the same level as far as gender stereotype promotion goes. It's fine to want to be cute or manly like your favorite anime characters, but it's just unhealthy to want to personify the most extreme poster boys/girls. To people asking for definitions, the first two here are pretty accurate. (Cabbage or Nanoha so should have won SaiGar.) |
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Mephistophilus
Posts: 200 Location: Fresno, CA, United States |
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Exactly. Neither stereotype is especially good, and definitely aren't supposed to be directly emulated or forced. On a subconscious level, however, and even in general, some sort of attachment to a moe character or some respect for a gar character could be understandable. It's simple how men and women alike may become attached to a moe character for some reason or another, usually because of a direct attraction to them (based on physical qualities) or because of an attachment to the character's exaggerated feelings and woes. Likewise, a male and even some females would be attached to a gar character because of his distinct manliness and all that entails. |
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Malintex Terek
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See my address to Mephistophilus regarding stereotype talk. However, the follwoing argument has been fashioned assuming "gar" does indeed promote stereotypes. ... It's not really promoting less of a stereotype, just a less negative stereotype. Because, really, are people could to look at courage and call it "bad"? Even if you were to ask someone from an entirely different culture than your own, the equivalent of the action/word "courage" is still viewed positively. So, while "gar" might not be exactly promoting complexity, the vast majority of its traits are more positive than moe. Whereas, sensitivity and compassion, commonly considered to be "womanly" traits, are "moe" in a girl character. Interestingly, those same attributes can be considered "gar" in a male character in special circumstances (or 'gay' in dis-simmilar circumstances). However, since sensitivity/compassion are considered "traditional" traits of women, from a feminist's mind the idea of men fawning over those traits and expecting them of women in our modern age is an insult. To use a very extreme example (caution, dear heart), it would be simmilar to white supremists (as opposed to "male chauvinists" for moe) idolizing movies promoting segregation. Wouldn't one consider that a bit negative?
Toguro? In that case (if you won't mind my interpretation), It's not his brawn or appearence that signify "GAR", it's his attitude and conviction. Musclebound characters could be seen as "GAR" in one show or "not GAR" in another, and in Toguro's case it's clearly the latter; rather, his firm decision to except punishment for his mis-deeds in the afterlife would be one of the admirable stereotypes of his character, though I would argue Toguro to not be representative of the term GAR.
I voted for the Cabbage during the first rounds so Guts could take Nanoha down; surprisingly, he didn't need my help. Heck, I liked the Cabbage so much I even wrote its biography at 'lurk moar'. 
Regarding stereotypes, does "gar" really promote them? Frankly, the definition I've been using for nearly all my discussions of the term is as follows:
The original definition of "moe" did not preclude men or adults, it simply referred to "love/fetish" for any anime/manga/VG character, regardless of connotation. Simmilar to gar's definition, really. Since then, especially in Japan, the definition has narrowed to specific types of girls, especially those that struggle against gender roles but fail to conqure them and end up back in the laps of their "male superiors" (which, quite frankly, pissed me off so much protest against it was one of the reasons I supported the initiation of SaiGar). I'm more partial to "gar" simple because although we now have an archetype, simply looking at the finalists in SaiGar it's pretty evident that "gar" isn't nearly as specific as "moe", which is something I'm proud of. Akagi Shigeru is probably the least likely icon to come to mind when one thinks of "gar", but simply watching him in action is breath-taking, even though what he does is merely flip over some porcelain tiles and occasionally chuckle/grin. Onizuka is a total loser, but his compassionate heart and "casual & relatable" attitude were also deemed to be "gar", though Onizuka's traits would traditionally be seen as more pronounced in a woman. In short, I'm saying that while "moe" has become pretty objective in scope, "gar" is still largely subjective and can be interpreted in many different ways. At that, a majority of "gar" traits are widely considered to be positive, so said characters can serve as limited role models for real people, whereas "moe" characters promote traits that are widely considered to be conformist/traditional (possibly negative), only serving to reinforce male chauvinism; if people fashioned their lives after these types of characters, they would be vulnerable to predators simply waiting to regress the feminist movement for breaking stereotypes and pre-concieved notions. On an additional note, I've avoided the consequences of "positive stereotyping" due to time, but I'll address it if someone kicks off discussion (hint hint). Last edited by Malintex Terek on Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:46 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Wolverine Princess
Posts: 1100 |
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I liked the Cabbage so much that after I voted for him on my home computer I ran down to the library so I could vote for him again. (: And on a side note, I'm not "anti-gar" or anything, although I may have come off as it in my last post. I actually like both gar and moe characters, although if I was forced to choose between to two of them gar wouldn't even hold a candle to moe. I voted in SaiGar whenever I had the opportunity to, but I voted for the troll characters whenever they came up just for the humor of it. (Heh, the hardest decision for me to make during the entire tournament was whether to vote for Jun or Kaworu.) I ended up voting for Guts in the last round, but I still wish Cabbage had won. |
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Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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Anyway, going back to Viga_of_stars's question, I guess I'm a bit of a fan of moe. I rather like watching charcters that are more innocent or less capable of handling the world than others. One of my personality traits is a strong desire to do something positive for others, even if it's only to lend a shoulder to cry on. Call it a "white knight" complex. Moe females tend to need a guy like me so it's vicariously pleasing to watch them. On the flipside, I love watching the total kick-ass females who can slice and dice, shoot full of holes, or otherswise beat to a bloody pulp whoever gets in their way without ever needing so much as a compliment. If I'm in a mood for "damsel in distress, please protect me big brother" type characters, I'll watch something moe. If I'm wanting to see "I don't need any help thanks but you can watch me kick butt" type characters, then I'll watch something else. Personally, I don't think moe anime should be viewed with any more or less respect than any other anime. If we're going to start getting weird about sterotypes or archtypes or what a series is or isn't trying to promote, we'll just start pissing each other off. Plus, life's way too short to get bent out of shape over something that isn't actually trying to indoctrinate or propagandize on an issue. Seriously, any series can be analyzed any way to come up with any conclusion. It's easy to isolate one or two components of a series and deliver a verdict, regardless of what that verdict is. As for hentai, well it's raison d'être is to be sexually pleasing so whatever fetish or fantasy you can think of, there's probably a corresponding hentai. Personally, my philosophy is there's nothing wrong with thinking. As long as you don't start obsessing over moe hentai or loli hentai or any sort of hentai, you're fine. Try to remember, it's just drawings that happen to move and have sound, not real people. |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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I don't have any particular problem with what I believe "moe" represents and since I enjoy lots of cutesy titles I obviously don't mind lots of moe-type characters. However, when you mix "moe" with any sort of sexual theme you get something very different called "loli." I'll defend honest moe titles here on ANN until the end of time, but you'll never see me defend any loli titles. In the grand scheme of things animated lolicon is probably not as bad as some of the live-action content that continues to be created for the Japanese market, but that doesn't mean it's right. Tests have shown that humans can relate even extremely simplistic animations to real-world motivations and events, it's just how our brains are wired, and knowing this it would seem rather irresponsible to consider animated depravity to be entirely harmless simply because the medium on which it's based doesn't harm anyone during its initial creation. I also have reservations about unwarranted violence in anime. I will admit that when I was younger I didn't believe that viewing violence or sex could impact a viewer on its own no matter how many times they watched it or in what form. But, as I've grown older I've had to change my opinion based on what I've seen happen with others and with myself. |
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Mephistophilus
Posts: 200 Location: Fresno, CA, United States |
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Ah, I see... I may have misunderstood the definition somewhat, so now I can see where you're coming from. Despite that definition being slightly... Offbeat, I can understand how it differs from my own. Moe by now seems to be clear-cut, as the term has been around for a while longer. However, I still wouldn't consider using a label as something to strive for. Perhaps it's my free-spirited nature, but I don't consider being that kind of person necessary to "succeed" as a man. Yes, some traits may be good, but perhaps setting standards of nobility that high may be a bit of an issue in a complicated world such as ours. I do see where you mentioned the long-term consequences I'm referring to as well.
On the issue of male chauvinism, I can see where you're coming from there as well. In some parts of the world especially, Japan being one of them, the women's sphere has been abysmally small even up to now and continues to stay that way from what I see. I do agree that setting roles for people is a bad thing, especially in societies where struggles for rights are hindered greatly by the cultural background of that society. Still, that goes back to perhaps my main point; that is, that even though you may connect to a moe character or a gar character, emulation =! a good thing in most cases, and though moe characters appeal to fetishes to a degree, I don't think the problem starts with a cutesy anime character. Not to say that the "support" of those fetishes is a good thing or necessarily a bad thing, but the fetishes associated with moe seem more to be a symptom of the problem rather than a source of the problem itself.[/quote] |
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Wolverine Princess
Posts: 1100 |
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Heh, I just found that thing from doing a Google search for "Toguro." I would have preferred to use this image instead, but due to the orange-ish coloring for his skin I think people unfamiliar with Yu Yu Hakusho (yes, all three of you) would have thought he was some kind of half-rock/half-man creature. I chose the slightly less creepy black and white image to make it clear that this guy is 100% pure muscle. Toguro probably isn’t the best character to represent the garchetype personality wise, but he’s definitely got the “scares you shitless when you witness him in action” part down pat. No other anime character made me think, “SWEET BABY JESUS, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT MAN MONSTER?!” like Toguro did at 100% power. |
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