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I just put Samurai X into my Metflix queue, as I was alittle surprised by something when I looked up the rest of the series on ANN:

Samurai X: Trust and Betrayal – ranked 2nd with 9.05
Rurouni Kenshin (TV) – ranked 69th with 8.32
Samurai X: Reflection – ranked 214th with 7.86
Samurai X: The Motion Picture – ranked 745th with 7.13

I was not surprised that their was such a wide spread, just that the single movie could hold the #2 spot (and has been in the top 10 for as long as I can remember) and the TV series itself not even be in the top 50!

My question is: Is the series (and the other two movies) worth watching? Do I need to see them in order to appreciate "Trust and Betrayal"? (IOW - Is it like Conqueror of Shamballah, which is really only any good if you've seen all, or at least almost all, of FMA?)

Just curious. I'm not really that interested in trying to watch 100+ episodes unless it 's really worth it. Please let me know what you think.

Huh, that's pretty hard to answer. Yes it IS worth the watch, most of the time, during season 3 it gets a little awkward but you should watch the TV series first, then the others in the order they pop up in the encyclopedia.

Well, Tony K.'s the expert. But from my experience, Trust & Betrayal is indeed the best of them all. The TV series was very good, but it's not among my favorite anime. I think it's an anime that most fans would consider a "must see." Not sure how many seasons I watched (on TV), but I would at least watch the first one to get an idea. As for the other two: Reflection isn't so good and I haven't seen The Motion Picture. (In other words, those two probably aren't recommended.)

Niceguy9418 wrote:

My question is: Is the series (and the other two movies) worth watching? Do I need to see them in order to appreciate "Trust and Betrayal"? (IOW - Is it like Conqueror of Shamballah, which is really only any good if you've seen all, or at least almost all, of FMA?)

Ruroken is my second favorite anime so I definitely believe it is worth watching. I would try to explain the best way to watch it but I would probably confuse myself and you in the process, and I think Tony K. said it best in a recommendation thread from long ago that I will not link to but I will quote here:

Tony K. wrote:

The basic moral of the series is to never give up on life, regardless of what bad things you've done in the past or how bleak your future might look. Cherish the life you have now and enjoy the presence of good friends and do what you can to protect it, should the instance occur. This is portrayed perfectly through the interaction of Kenshin and friends, and especially his battles.

Before you check it out though, there are several things I need to point out.

First, there are multiple titles that go in the following order:

TV series (1-62)
Movie (optional)
Tsuioku-hen OAV ("Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal")
Seisou-hen OAV ("Samurai X: Reflections")

The TV series is actually 95 episodes, but ep. 63+ are all filler, meaning it has nothing to do with the original story. I would recommend you avoid this until you at least get the jist of the real story. In fact, you can ask anyone about the notorious Season 3, and most will say it just doesn't live up to the namesake. Actually, the series got cancelled because of such low ratings, so that should tell you something in itself already.

Season 1 (1-28) contains some filler, but still does a decent job of portraying most of the original material. There's a fair share of action, comedy, and plot events to build up the characters.

Moving into Season 2 (29-62, aka the Kyoto arc), you get a bit of a darker, more action/drama-oriented atmosphere. Every episode sticks to the manga almost panel for panel, and is the highlight of the series, in my opinion.

The movie has nothing to do with the main story either, though it was okay if you liked the series. Some of the references point to the events of Kyoto, so if you watched it without any prior knowledge, it probably wouldn't be as enjoyable. I wouldn't recommend it if you're watching the anime for the first time through because the end of Kyoto actually ties into the first OAV.

Tsuioku-hen is... pivotal. It's actually a prequel that tells the story of how Kenshin turned from the cold-blooded assassin he once was into the happy-pappy rurouni. I do not recommend you watch the OAV before the TV series. The problem with that is the transition.

Namely, the TV series is a fairly light-hearted and fun viewing. You get some slapstick humor, laughing moments, and that sort of thing. The OAV is the polar opposite; very dark, violent, and almost depressing. If you watch to the end of Kyoto, Tsuioku-hen will tie into a certain lingering plotline. And that transition from a lighter to a darker atmoshpere, is what will make it so much more enjoyable. A lot of people that saw Tsuioku-hen first, ended up not liking the series because of the reverse transition (darker to lighter feel), and it's a real shame. TRUST ME, you will not be dissappointed if you follow the order I suggested.

Seisou-hen, on the other hand, is not as good. For the longest time, I never made the effort to read much manga. But after hearing so many things about what actually happened after Kyoto, I had to find out. Needless to say, Seisou-hen is a very poor representation of it. In addition to being a prequel, Tsuioku-hen is actually a flashback that was to lead up to the final arc of the franchise, Jinchuu.

Unfortunately, what was written and illustrated into about 10 volumes of greatness ended up being only 4 good OAV episodes (Tsuioku-hen) and 2 crammed episodes of butchered misrepresnation (Seisou-hen). While the production qualities are excellent, the story is just horribly spliced, putting 8 volumes of manga into an hour of crap that didn't even tell it correctly. Even the creator of the franchise disowned it.

If at all possible, I highly recommend you check out the manga after the anime, at least for the full effect of the Jinchuu arc. But for now, I can say you'll like the anime if you follow my suggestions for viewing (TV series through ep. 62, then Tsuioku-hen).

By the way, I really dislike the dub. Being my favorite anime, I feel it fails in capturing the essence of all the characters and expressing the subtlties that make the dialogue and interacton so enjoyable. I could argue the faults forever from voice inflection to pronunciations, but I've typed enough as it is.

I agree with all of this except that I actually like Seisou-hen though I am one of the very few so I wouldn't take my word for it. But I think it does a pretty good job of telling it's own story in its own way while showing "clips" from the last arc of the manga. But in fact it really doesn't fit well with the story if you look at it from the manga perspective, or if you actually take time to read the manga that is, which I would also recommend. It is pretty darned good as well.

Personally, I think Reflections is better than the TV series. I haven't seen The Motion Picture, though. The Samurai X OVAs are really good, and the series is good until season 3.

"Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal" is Director's Cut.

try "Samurai X - Betrayal" and "Samurai X - Trust".

I can't watch Seisou-hen and don't recommend it (I admit that it does have nice artwork, but that's about it). Except for Trust and Betrayal, I lament that the Jinchuu arc will never be animated properly. It was so great in the manga and I thought on par with the Kyoto arc. I would have loved to see the emotional impact of having the Jinchuu arc animated close to the manga like it should have been done.

I thought the movie was decent. It felt like a historical piece with the Kenshin characters added in.

Spotlesseden wrote:

"Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal" is Director's Cut.

try "Samurai X - Betrayal" and "Samurai X - Trust".

Well they have a 4-disc set of Trust, Betrayal, Refletion and TMP.

I'm still not sure I want to sit though 100 episodes before watching the movies, so I might put this one off. There's still a lot of other stuff I want see first!

(Plus I can't put a series down once I get started - I HAVE to see it though, filler and all, unless I absolutley hate it. So I can't say ahead of time "I'll just watch the first 50" and skip to the movie. I just can't do it.)

So I think I'll put this one off for a little while, get some other series knocked out first.

Thanks for your input!

Last edited by Seif on Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

I consider the whole Rurouni Kenshin story to be an epic on the level of LotR or Star Wars. Too bad the uneven presentation hurts the tale immensely.

Trust and Betrayal is awesome. It's one of my favorite films of all time. It's a little slow pace, but the animation, the plot, and the music are all incredibly moving. Sadly it's hurt by an apathetic monotone dub. But otherwise it's a masterpiece.

The TV series tells a great story. The real meat of the epic is found here, however it is watered down by fluff for the first season and by some questionable plot moments in the latter of the Kyoto arc. The last season is pure filler which shouldn't exist at all. Overall, it's a great story with loveable characters you care about.

Now on to Remembrance…

Taken by itself, without prior knowledge it’s a beautiful piece cinema. Excellent animation and an incredible musical score help add an emotional atmosphere to the film.

But as a tale of Kenshin, it was horrible. Words cannot express my hatred for it as part of the Kenshin saga. Everything was so poorly executed and everyone was so utterly out of character it wasn't even funny. Kenshin was a depressing mope, Kaoru was turned into a useless emotional wreck. Sano, while not fairing as bad, was far less dense then the one you've become attached too. Though he was nearly as solemn as the rest of the cast, at least traces of his cocky restlessness remained. The only one that faired well was Yahiko, who came across much more mature, instead of being the Krillian of the show. The character designs, while well done, didn't suit the characters at all. Tomoe and Battosai looking realistic and bland was fine. They were conceived as being tragic characters. But the light-hearted peacefulness of the TV series was lost with characters that looked like they fell out of Jin-Roh. What the Remembrance staff couldn’t realize was that the TV series was the happiest part of Kenshin's life. His time spent in Tokyo was the only time where he could sleep peacefully and open up to others. At one point Kaoru comments that she knew he was faking his happiness, which almost made me vomit. The Kenshin I know had no problem laughing. The TV series makes HUGE point of showingspoiler[ that his time spent at the Kamiya dojo was a healing and peaceful time for him. In fact the scene where Kenshin leaves for Kyoto telling Kaoru how happy he was with her is the emotional highlight of the whole gundamn series. ]That's the Kenshin I love. Not this solemn humorless AU one. And Kaoru. Ho~ly shit. They made her as at least twice as somber as Kenshin. Her short temperedness, unstoppable optimism, and her charming dorkyness, were all lost. In short, anything that made her remotely likable. The whole thing reeks of some damned OoC fanfic.

The format was just as pathetic too. The TV series ended with filler leaving the final chapter untold. They could have used the two hours to tell an abridged version of the Enishi arc, but seeing as how that would have made too much sense, they opted for a different route. OBVIOUSLY the thing to do with this budget is to make a two hour movie with half of it a flashback, a quarter of it the Einish arc, and a quarter of it the first bad fanfic we can find.

It’s not hard to do a flashback format but they manage to take what was essentially a clip show with a fresh bucket of paint and fudge it up beyond recognition. Most of it consisted random unimportant scenes between Kaoru and Kenshin with everyone else being lucky to be shown. Saito was only in one shot...ONE SHOT! Of course, he didn’t get the shaft as bad as Aoshi who was only in the background of one scene. The two episode Ji-Nei arc gets 15 minutes retelling while the whole Kyoto arc is done in about sixty seconds.

Then, once they where done raping the series, instead of using the rest of the time attempting to do the Enishi arc any sort of justice they felt they felt that fifteen minutes should about cover it. After all, why would we need to know about the contribution of Saito, Sano, Misao, Aoshi, Megumi, Tae, Tsubume, Sano's family, Tomoe's dad, and Yahiko. They whole epic build up to the final confrontation is set up in about four scenes. The battle, while well choreographed, felt incredibly rushed. spoiler[With just Kaoru, Kenshin and Enishi participating it manages to wrapt itself up in about four minutes in after which it climaxes with Kenshin giving a speech about how he must live to atone for his past sins. While an awesome speech that was properly ripped straight from the manga, they proceed to dump all over it by having him immediately drop to his knees and give Enishi permission to kill him.] The offensiveness is damped somewhat by the incredible surreality of it all.

But of course, they didn’t stop there. No, the biggest crime of all is that it completely destroys the spoiler[happy ]ending of the manga and flips the bird to fans that Inu-Yasha can only dream off. spoiler[The manga concludes with Kenshin finally finding peace. His past is put too rest and he finally can live a normal life. Apparently the OVA staff thought that was lacking in emotional terrorism and with the original story out of the way they can make what ever emo ending they desire. In a totally out of character move Kenshin leaves his wife and newborn son behind to go wonder Japan for ten MORE years because apprently solving EVERY SINGLE LOOSE THREAD from his past can’t stop his EMO GUILT. Then, in what has to be the most emotional manipulative move this side of PAY IT FORWARD, he returns with leprosy or some shit. NATURALLY his wife convinces him to GIVE IT TO HER showing just how much of a GOOD WIFE she is because SHE WANTS TO BE WITH HIM FOREVERS and SHARE IN HIS PAIN (God forbid her husband experience leprosy by himself, it’s not like she has a young son to care for or anything.) And then, in the ultimate bastardization of Kenshin’s character he leaves home AGAIN with a SON and a DYING WIFE at home to help the morale of Japanese troops in a WAR that JAPAN HAS STARTED. What happened to protecting the ones you love Kenshin? What about your pacifistic beliefs? What about not assisting in any death again? Well, apparently they're not important because GO JAPAN. ]Then, in the only enjoyable part of this whole chaotic mess is when spoiler[Yahiko has to go retrieve Kenshin’s pussified son. He proceeds to give Kenji’s whiny ass a swordsman bitch-slapping and drags him off to visit his dying lonely mother. Afterwards, Sano, who is for some reason fighting tigers in China or something stumbles across a drooling retard Kenshin on the verge of death in some empty shack in the middle of nowhere. How’d he get there? What happened to helping the war effort? Who knows, those questions aren’t important and good thing the directors knew this because they didn’t have to waste our times with an explanation.]

Of course there’s only one proper way to end this massive pissing session, and that’s by spoiler[KILLING both of the suicidal love birds. And why not? After all they took away everything you knew and loved about Kenshin and Kaoru. The only way to twist the knife in this bloody worn out wound is having them die. So in a total BULLSHIT climax retard-Kenshin limps over to his wife and they die in each others arms in the middle of the street.]

[expletive] AU. I can only hope that the Enishi arc will one day be properly animated. But sadly, this doesn’t seem likely.

[/end rant]

I am very new to RK, I watched tv seasons 1 and 2, then moved onto the OVAs.What is the "Jinchuu arc"?

I'm too broke to watch anything else since I started watching RK, hence I cannot discuss anything except RK! SIGH....so here I go:

A masterpiece this surely is, both the TV series and OAVs.

About Reflections:

"Reflections" is summary of Kenshin's life, narrated by Kaoru. I agree with most of what Seif said. I was deeply disturbed after watching "Reflections". I feel that the personalities are not in line with the TV series. Even if we assume that Kenshin and Kaoru became old, the desparity with the TV series is too wide. I'm deeply disatisfied with "Reflections": For example, Kenshin was sent to fight the First Sino-Japanese War, i wished they had spent more time showing what happened during that war rather than the starting scene of a storm when Kenshin fell into the sea from a battleship. I would like to know why Sunosuke remained in China. I am particular with historical dates and wish they had dated the events more often than they did since this is about "Reflections". I find "Reflections" disturbing because it highlights Kenshin's failure. He was not a good husband and a good father. Not very responsible of him to leave his wife and son while he wonders all over Japan. That is stupid. I don't understand why "Reflections" choose to turn Kenshin's life into something so pitiful. "Reflections" is unecessary. The series could have just ended with Season 3 of the TV series and 2 OAVs.

About the Movie: I like it.

About Trust and Betrayal: I love it.

About the Kenshin's smile and laughter being real or faked......ok......this is where I defer from Seif......I have reasons to believe that some (not all) of Himura's smiles and laughter in the TV is faked or forced to conceal his true
personality and sadness. If you watch carefully, he is able to suddenly switch from seriousness to silly laughter, an indication that there is a dark side to him. I never found him funny although the people around him are funny. I can laugh at the people around him but I cannot laugh real laughter when I look at Himura. Can you?

Overall, after watching RK plus the OAVs, I find Kenshin's loyalty to the Meiji remarkable. He knows whose side he is on during and after the war. He is a good soldier, he obeyed orders to serve his country till death.

Reflections is BS and Watsuki himself (creator of Kenshin) disowned it as complete garbage that is COMPLETELY at odds with his creation. If you look at the final chapter of the manga it's not even CLOSE to canon reality.

I can only assuming that they made it because all the EMO fans of the FIRST OVAs talk about how much they love those some saying how the OVAs are great and they don't like the TV series (I agree, watching OVAs first is a TERRIBLE idea that no one SHOULD do) so they decided to keep with the "tragic" and EMO tone of the OVAs, even though Kenshin's story IS one of redemption. Bottom line for me, the TV series (through the end of Kyoto) is VERY good, top notch and definitely worth watching and I personally hate the OVAs, all of them. The initial OVAs (Trust & Betrayal) were ok first time thru, but I HATE the art style and have grown to despise them BECAUSE of Reflections and fans of T&B who them diss on the TV series for not being as cool and emo. Rolling Eyes

Spotlesseden wrote:

"Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal" is Director's Cut.

try "Samurai X - Betrayal" and "Samurai X - Trust".

"Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal" generally refers to the OAV as a series (both volumes). "Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal Director's Cut" refers to the "movie" version. I would not recommend anyone watch the DC because of the poor transition effects "connecting" the episodes to look like a full-length feature, not to mention they cropped the screen (cut portions off like FUNi did to DBZ or Manga to the Ninja Scroll Anniversary Edition).

Seif wrote:

The TV series tells a great story. The real meat of the epic is found here, however it is watered down by fluff for the first season and by some questionable plot moments in the latter of the Kyoto arc.

How so? I've seen Kyoto multiple times and just recently read it in the manga. The anime by all means got the entire thing down panel for panel.

Season 1 spliced a lot of the story by putting in a little filler and changing up some of the story arcs (Raijuuta and Tsukioka especially, though I liked the Tsukioka arc a little more in the anime because it involved Sano a lot more). Overall, though I think it's a real good setup for Kyoto, much like how Kyoto is for Tsuioku-hen. But I still would not recommend the filler season and strongly stand by my original suggestion for starting the OAVs straight after episode 62.

Watching the filler will seriously bog down the entire atmosphere, and I wouldn't want anyone to lose the buzz of Kyoto into the very dark and violent past that is Tsuioku-hen.

ivorymoose wrote:

I am very new to RK, I watched tv seasons 1 and 2, then moved onto the OVAs.What is the "Jinchuu arc"?

Jinchuu is the final arc of the Kenshin franchise. Basically, the manga can be divided into three different parts: Tokyo (introduction of Kenshin and gang), Kyoto (Kenshin and gang battling a part of his past through Shishio and the Juppongatana), and finally Jinchuu (Kenshin tells his past, and a certain character comes to get revenge, though much, much more personal and less stern than what Shishio was fighting for).

The OAVs tried animating some of this through Tsuioku-hen and Seisou-hen. While Tsuioku-hen did a pretty good (though slightly altered) job, I've read Jinchuu and must say it was horribly represented through Seisou-hen. I will spare the spoilers at this point, but if you want to read it some day, it starts on Vol.18 of the manga to the end (Vol.28).

The Kyoto-arc is definitely worth watching. It's been quite a while since I finished all of RK and I remember enjoying the Kyoto saga the most. RK is one of the best shounen series I've ever seen and one of my most prized DVD possessions. You'd be a fool to skip straight to the films in my opinion. While Reflections was my favorite, I was distraught after seeing it because it pretty much ruined the series I had just finished. I agree completely with what Seif said:

Quote:

Taken by itself, without prior knowledge it’s a beautiful piece cinema. Excellent animation and an incredible musical score help add an emotional atmosphere to the film.

But as a tale of Kenshin, it was horrible. Words cannot express my hatred for it as part of the Kenshin saga. Everything was so poorly executed and everyone was so utterly out of character it wasn't even funny.

You have to watch it parallel to the series I think. It involves the same characters but just in a different dimention - in a parallel universe where everything that happens there does not affect anything in the series Razz

.

You didn't expect us to tell you to skip the series did you? Anime catgrin

It's definitely worth watching if you like epic samurai stories and top rated shounen.

Having seen all of the anime and non of the manga I have a bit of a different perspective of the series. Also factoring in that I really don't like shonen series and really don't rank Kenshin that high also gives me a unique view here. Being one of the only supporters for season 3 I will quote myself:

Quote:

My favorite episodes are from the third season. I should state from the start that I'm not into most shonen manga, and really don't like Dragon Ball, Naruto, One Piece, Inuyasha, Hokuto no Ken, etc. The much beloved season two of Kenshin really is the most shonen of the three. The idea that the Kyoto arc is based around a boss and his mini bosses who the main characters has to fight really is a bit too much like so many other shonen titles. spoiler[Having Kenshin fight to the brink of death only to start another fight is so shonen] The episodes dedicated to the "ultimate fighting technique" also bothers me, especially since Sanosuke has one of these too.

Bearing this in mind I greeted the Meiji episodes with open arms. To me Kenshin is about the ending of old Japan, and the start of the modern era. This theme is illustrated in the third season with the idea of Christianity being introduced into Japan. I also love Sanosuke's story in the Christian arc, especially since he took such a back seat in Kyoto. spoiler[Having Kenshin lose his sight helped bring the others to the foreground, and illustrated how Kenshin isn't as invulnerable as in the Kyoto arc.] The Shougo and Sayo backstory episode is very touching. The Black Knights arc also contrasts Japan with the Western world. It illustrates how Japan thought they were so advanced, while science was advancing in other countries. This arc placed Yahiko into the foreground, and placed him in his most mature light. spoiler[ It's funny when Yahiko and Sanosuke can't even pronounce the word "science" when Yutaro explains it to them.] In both arcs there is a nice commentary of a country that is unwiiling to embrace a new global community. spoiler[I love how in the end of the Christian arc it is commented how he West would frown upon the slaughter of Christians, yet they are still deported.]

My favorite stand alone episodes are from the Meiji season. The ring episode (title is a spoiler) is one of my favorites. Once again we start to see how Western traditions are creeping into Japan. We also see lots of Tae, an underused character who I always enjoyed, up to no good. My all time favorite episode would have to be the Misao/Aoshi episode. spoiler[ The scene where Aoshi is reminded of a young Misao is particularly moving.] The young artist episode is another that I really enjoy. spoiler[Once again we see the theme of a changing Japan revisited as the artists final painting is Picasso-esque.]

I will agree that the third season lacks "intense build up to amazing combats with incredible characters." and has the least amount "good fights" but that is why I find it my favorite.

Quote:A lot of time seem to be wasted in slow and boring scenes, and there definitely was a lack of "hardcore" fighting. The conflicts weren't resolved from fighting, but rather with random causes and effects, and that's just boring.

This is so true. The third season is more political, and the conflicts are not resolved with who can draw thier sword quickest. spoiler[ The Christian arc ends with Kenshin using his negotiation powers with Shougo's lot, and the (Portugeuse?) embasy resolving the conflict.] The Black Knights arc ends with the much treasured plant being destroyed and nobody benifiting, when both parties could have got a miracle cure if they worked together.] I love these endings since they don't remind me of so many fight of the week series.
I will however admit that the Feng Shui episodes are really dull.

The third season is the one that diverges the most from shonen traditions, but I think many people who might like the third series don't get that far. I also enjoyed Reflections, although I believe everyone here will agree that the events in the third arc of the manga would have been so much better if it was told as another season of the series instead of a few disjointed flashbacks. I believe that like the third season most of the people who make it this far into the series are fans of the manga, and many of those who would enjoy Reflections don't get past the first season.

Tony K. wrote:

How so? I've seen Kyoto multiple times and just recently read it in the manga. The anime by all means got the entire thing down panel for panel.

Well, as for the first season I should probably rephrase.

Quote:

The first season is watered down by fluff

I didn't mean to say that the first season was fluff in it's entirety. Indeed the plot is definitely progress with both the Raijuta and Jinei arcs, as well as Sano's Seki-hotai friend returning. What I intended to say was how these developments where watered down by an overabundance of filler. A few episodes of whacky hijinks are fine, but in excess it can hurt a narrative. As much as I enjoyed the first season, I don't think anyone really needed that Sumo episode.

As for the Kyoto arc, the majority of it was quite excellent. However, the cheesiness of some of the villians, such as Henya, Fuji, and Iwanbō required such a huge suspension of disbelief that it conflicted with the atmosphere. In other shonen series this wouldn't have been as apprent, but with the historical context the disjointedness was apparent. It's still just a minor complaint however.

I still would recommend the filler season over the Remembrance OVA. In the choice between no plot progression with the same characters or bad plot progression with AU replacements I'd have to go with the lesser of the two evils.

ivorymoose wrote:

]About the Kenshin's smile and laughter being real or faked......ok......this is where I defer from Seif......I have reasons to believe that some (not all) of Himura's smiles and laughter in the TV is faked or forced to conceal his true
personality and sadness. If you watch carefully, he is able to suddenly switch from seriousness to silly laughter, an indication that there is a dark side to him.

Indeed, much like Vash Kenshin often smiles to hide the sadness of his past. However, their are geniune moments of happiness and laughter in his stay at the Kamiya dojo. My beef with the OVA was how it implied that his peacefulness there had all been an act. That's why Saito's reappearance was so jarring, Kenshin had left his guard down in his happiness.

[EDIT: I think some of your quote tags were a little off, so I tried fixing them. Hope you don't mind. -TK]

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