Forum - View topicJust finished Ergo Proxy.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11440 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Aside from the Studio Manglobe thread from a couple of weeks ago, I haven't seen much discussion or even mention of this series.
So I finished the last episode about half an hour ago and really like it. The artwork is dark and dirty (in a gritty sense) and I am so loving Real Mayar's character design. The whole goth look with all black, deep eye shadow, and carefully woven hair is just hot beyond words, regardless of some of her personality issues. Animation is sleek in both fast pace and slow motion sequences with some well integrated CG for the high tech elements. Music has a dark, techno feel mixed with a little orchestral and Gregorian chant here and there. Haven't heard much of Ike Yoshihiro's work aside from Blood and Flag, but he does a really good job setting the mood. Voice acting didn't have many high profile seiyuu, but they did some standout jobs, especially Pino and Vincent. Plot and characters, however, are the biggest part it has going. I can say I thoroughly enjoyed this series because of all the pyschological writing, particularly episodes 11 and 21. 11 with spoiler[ Vincent meeting that old man in the library and a presentation of the Anthropic Principal, questioning reality as we know and hinting at the fact of what Proxies really are and how/why they came into existence.] 21 with spoiler[ The very unique Proxy battle where Vincent is tricked into thinking he was betrayed by Real, only to have his body as Ergo Proxy separate from his mind, with the mind living in Real's body. Hence, the case of Dissociatve Identity Disorder (aka Multiple Personality). But the way they set it up is just so amazing as you never find out till the end that it was all a trick to begin with. Easily one of my favorite episodes ever of any anime because of the special perspective(s) and presentation of that episode's content.] There are also many historical and literary references made throughout as well, such as the statues in Donov Mayar's chamber, the Latin context in some of peoples'/Proxies' names, and probably many others I'm forgetting to mention right now. However, the one thing that makes me hesitate in giving this series a Masterpiece rating is the last episode. I'm having a little trouble understanding just what the whole purpose of Proxies were in the first place. From what I gathered spoiler[ The Proxies were made by "The Creator," who I'll call God. Either God or the Proxies had created humanity, but humanity had somehow gone out of control at some point and eventually began to lead its own destruction. Proxy One then said something about how humanity was about to reflourish itself, but the appearance of Ergo Proxy (who built Romdeau, by the way) caused a chain reaction that made humanity awaken their latent urge for destruction, and thus things go crazy and characters start dying. Real 2, who I assume was created by Daedalus using Monad Proxy's DNA or something, regains her memories of her love for Vincent and tries to fly him toward the sun or God (whatever was up in the sky). Vincent refuses to go because he's in love with real Real, bids farewell to Monad, and descends to Earth only to say "the battle has just begun" with the appearance of some ships.] Not to speculate anything, but I wonder if this will lead to some kind of continuation of any sort. Being the only other Manglobe anime I've seen other than Champloo, things are left quite open for further interpretation, and I'm curious if anyone else thinks so. But yeah, the ending was a bit confusing and not as resolving as I expected. Not that I mind things that are left open. And I really want to give this series a Masterpiece for its top notch presentation and production values, but I want to do so only when I've come to appreciate and understand that lingering element to its rightful potential. I am stoked at the very least to get this on DVD in November or December and highly recommend it to those who are fans of the GitS movies. It carries a high level of dialogue, but is a lot more "active" in my opinion. It also carries a lot more fun in some of the cuter moments with Pino. Definitely one of the best titles I've experienced this year, and maybe ever. Last edited by Tony K. on Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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omar235
 Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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Truth is I have yet to see it, but after reading your post it looks more and more interesting...I will have to see at least the first 5 or so episodes
 from the description it looks like Ergo Proxy is a bit like NGE as far as the whole god and destruction mankind thing and a bit like GITS with all that witty comprehensive dialogue...is that an accurate assumption?
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Azathrael
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Probably not because you're comparing one series to two others of completely different genre. You could've dropped the whole comparison and described it better using your own words because you're just calling for someone else (other than me, who's already commenting right now) to come and say something stupid (like me) about your post. I think your thread was just a little too fast, Tony K.. Only one fansub group finished the series (and today at that) so I'm guessing the majority of the American audience who don't know Japanese are still far from completing the series. Not going to get a lot of comments for a while unless some other Japanese-fluent user has also seen the series, and would like to comment. I've had my eyes on this series for a while so I'm already hyped up about it as it is; my only fear was that it might end up like Speed Grapher where the concept/idea is good and everything else sucks. But your review says otherwise, so I'm happy. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11440 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Nah. Nothing of the sort. In fact I'd say it's barely close to GitS. The only reason I mentioned it is because of a particular sidestory element that involves a little I, Robot and the whole "questioning reality" bit. The God and humanity destruction thing is on a much smaller scale and could even be considered more rhetorical than symbolic. It's actually been a while since I've seen the first GitS (only once, and that was on TV about 8 years ago), and I haven't even seen Innocence yet, though I have the UK R2 DVD sitting on my shelf waiting to be watched. I was only trying to approximate and equate some of the concepts of EP to Shirou Masamune's ideas (or was it Oshii Mamoru that was crazy about that stuff?)  .
But no, nothing like Eva. No mechs, no super-big robots/monsters, or biblical mumbo jumbo for it to look cool. It's just some humans, half a dozen Proxies, and several androids affected by the Cogito virus (which if you know or do some research on Latin, you'll find the meaning of).
Hm.. not to derail this and talk about fansub groups, but it really shouldn't matter how fast it was finished. I've seen my fair share of more than enough fans keeping up with Haruhi, HiguNakuKoroni, Ouran Host Club, School Rumble 2, and Blood+, and they seem to keep up pretty well. I created this thread to solidify my own understanding while at the same time introducing it to those who've yet to see it or are intersted in checking it out when it hits the shelves. Just looking at the ratings and discrepancy of viewers of this series compared to the ones I mentioned above, licensed or not, this title feels just a tad underrated to me right now, so the least I can do is try and create some kind of buzz  .
Great! Glad I could help. I saw SG about halfway through before it was licensed and like it a lot. I've not ruined anything yet by reading spoilers and hope to finish it on DVD eventually. Being a Gonzo title, I'm sort of lenient on their stuff nowadays. I love Gankutsuou and Last Exile, like Gate Keepers, Full Metal Panic!, and Hellsing TV (to a degree) a lot. Don't care much for Peace Maker Kurogane, but found it mildly entertaining in spurts. Regardless of all the negatives I hear about FUNi's "big three" (Speed Grapher, Basilisk, and Trinity Blood), I'm usually pretty good at finding more positives than naught. Heck, I was even able to do so with something as stale as Jigoku Shoujo (gave it a So-so only for those last few episodes, but still can't believe it might get a second season, though...). Anyway, as hyped as you may be for EP, all I'll say is that it never bogs down. While some episodes may feel episodic, the series has a lot more continuity in comparison to their other big work (Champloo). But, seeing is believing, so I'll leave it up to you on November 21, 2006. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6900 Location: Kazune City |
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I saw the first couple of episodes awhile back, and they were intriguing...EP is definitely a show I'm willing to check out, but I just didn't have time to follow it as it came out. I was struck by a different sort of comparison...it reminded me quite a bit of Texhnolyze, which I really liked (me=ABe fanboy 4 Life!) Normally, I don't go for dark/violent/disturbing anime, but this one could easily be worth buying on DVD, or at least waiting for a fansub group that I consider more reliable to finish it.
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vroenis
 Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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After watching the first episode of Ergo Proxy, this was actually one of the reasons I was turned off by it. I absolutely adore Texhnolyze (I'm also an ABe fan for life), and unfortunately I have a terrible tendency to compare any anime that even touches dark and abstract presentation with ABe productions. While I love the ultra-heavy dialogue of Stand Alone Complex and the GitS films, I love Serial Experiments: Lain and Texhnolyze for their graceful minimalist dialogue and focus on atmosphere and visual presentation. Unfortunately when I wathced the first episode of Ergo Proxy (and Gantz for that matter), I came away with the impression that is was attempting to be half-half; one part abstract minimalism and one part dialogue driven. I actually don't like it in abstracts when things are overly explained, and I seem to remember the first episode of Ergo Proxy going to great lengths to describe the premise and setting. One of the things I loved so much about my first viewing of Texhnolyze was that not only were the premise and setting not explained at all until much later, they remained ambiguous and ultimately unimportant in context to the core-themes. I know I'm probably being unfair, and I have only seen one epsidoe of EP. While I'm usually pretty good at watching like (or seemingly like) series' and appreciating both for the elements that are unique to each one respectively, I suppose my judgement gets clouded when I'm reminded of one of my more treasured productions. From the comments here, I might give it another go, as I'm sure it deserves a chance, and any further comments regarding the atmosphere and presentation of EP would be greatly appreciated to help me grow my perspective of it. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I'm liking the show a lot so far, but I haven't finished it yet. I'm still waiting for the last couple episodes to be subbed. I have already pre-ordered my copy of volume one with the artbox as well.
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omar235
Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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I wasn't really comparing two whole series with it, just the elements I described...the witty dialogue (meaning if it has that level of dialogue) and the man-kind destruction point...sorry if it wasn't clear. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Tony K. is a Manglobe fanboy, and you know you can't deny it.
I thought that that was episode eleven? [My bad, I changed it -TK] Anyway, some may say that episode was pretentious and they'd be partially correct, but for the most part that was one of my favorite episodes in all of anime that I've seen. It was like watching the twelfth episode of Texhnolyze, the sixth episode of Now and Then, Here and There, the entirety of Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion, the fifth episode of the Black Jack OVA, the last episode of Haibane Renemi, the entirety of Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade, etc. The whole thing flowed marvelously and there was no skip in direction at all, not to mention I'm one of those odd ones that enjoys psycho-babble now and then (well, Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence aside).
Personally I felt that spoiler[there was a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor what with the title "Deus Ex Machina" and the events that happened.] Of course, I have a bizarre sense of humor myself.
spoiler[The Earth was essentially "reborn" from what I gather. The proof also comes from one of Vincent's last statements before the show ends as he's looking up towards the sky.]
spoiler[Proxy One's comments are important to consider and also indicate that humans are returning, thus why we see the ships in the sky as the series finishes. Apparently humanity had escaped to space ala Blue Gender and were now returning now that things were ready to return to "normality" with the chain of destruction having run its course.]
spoiler[Apparently Real (or rather Re-l) has a connection to Monad Proxy in a similar way that Vincent has a connection to Ergo Proxy, unless I'm misunderstanding something here.]
spoiler[Like I mentioned earlier, those ships are carrying the humans who escaped to space when the planet entered a time where it was impossible for most to continue on. Now that things have settled down, they're coming back to put things the way they are -- death and rebirth, a continuous cycle, if you will, which I find to be quite a common theme in anime.]
spoiler[Vincent's final comments made me scream in my mind "SEQUEL, BABY!" though I don't think that it is going to happen.] Oh, and the only other anime that Manglobe has done is Samurai Champloo, just to let you know.
Oshii is known for that psycho/techno-babble that he so commonly uses (see my reference to Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence above).
Oh, you dismiss the similarities too easily! Personally I found the arguably closest relation to any other anime for Ergo Proxy to be The End of Evangelion. I mean, spoiler[the whole concept of death and rebirth that I stated earlier, an apocalyptic-esque event to close the story, Vincent/Shinji returning to reality to be with the ones he cares for, people eventually returning to a ravaged and ruined Earth to rebuild it, a fair share of psycho-babble, etc.] Plus, just on a basic level, Vincent reminds reminds me a lot of Shinji as does Re-l reminds me a lot of Asuka, not to mention both sets of characters had a similar relationship and spoiler[in the end for both stories it seems as though the issues both pairs had up until that point can and will be worked out.] All of that I certainly don't mind as I'm a very critical fan of Evangelion, and Ergo Proxy is something I'm quite fond of as well.
Not if I have anything to say about it! I will analyze and discuss as long as Tony K. is willing to put up with my long ramblings!
Hopefully you've done just that.
I think that comparison is a bit too much of a stretch. I did see the majority of Ergo Proxy before I saw Texhnolyze on July 31st and August 1st (greatest two days of being an anime fan for me), and while there are certain similarities between the two, I can completely attest to Ergo Proxy being a different type of beast than Texhnolyze. The themes, characters, plot structure and development, etc. are vastly different. Oh, and just to nit-pick, Texhnolyze is more of Konaka's credit as was Serial Experiments Lain. Though, that's not to discredit ABe in the slightest as I absolutely love his style, and the art in Texhnolyze is personally my favorite that I've found in any anime -- something that beautiful, brutal, and atmospheric all at the same time just leaves me in awe.
Hmm... the Texhnolyze fans are crawling out of the woodworks... I feel as if I should do what I thought I should when I brought the series up with Kagemusha and create a thread to discuss it.
Oh, I fully recommend you do. Ergo Proxy shares a lot of similarities with Manglobe's other series, Samurai Champloo, in execution as it is episodic and does a lot of odd experimentation (episodes fifteen and twenty are evident of that), but in some ways I prefer it to Samurai Champloo in that it never loses sight of what it is about and doesn't stumble with pointless filler episodes, by which I mean episodes twenty-two and twenty-three in Samurai Champloo. While I found both anime to have an ending that was somewhat underwhelming compared to what was built up to it, both still hold a fair share a merit, and I believe the ending in Ergo Proxy was handled much better. You won't so much become caught up in the world of Ergo Proxy but rather the characters' journey itself, which I think certain parts like episode sixteen to be rather evident of that as nothing really progresses in the plot in that example, but it still gives you so much insight involving the characters (particularly Re-l) and also is one of the few episodes in which I would consider it to be atmospherically involving.
The last episodes have been subbed, and unless you're one who just sticks to a few core subbers who shall remain nameless for legal reasons, I encourage you to check them out. Edit: Corrected a few but notable typos, and also added a bit more clarity to a comparison between Evangelion and Ergo Proxy. Last edited by HellKorn on Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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I'm hooked. My girlfriend and I have seen clips of Ergo at Otakon and other places. Ergo and Moonphase became her 2 new addictions. After reading your review Tony, and also yours Hellkorn, I'm ready to try it out. It sounds very dark but very character driven frm your posts. One good title similar, in those aspects, I think would be Gilgamesh. I know it got mixed reviews but I loved it.spoiler[ I mean and end of the world anime where it actually ends, doesn't happen often now does it.] Hopefully Ergo will be just as good. Any confirmed date for US release though? I've already been given the task of buying the box for it and for Moonphase so I better make sure I got money saved away.
Since this got brought up I'll touch on it. Funi's "big 3" as it was called here, I find very worthwhile. I know, ouf the 3, Trinity Blood has been bashed by loads of people but I find it a very nice fun series. Yet another series I've been tasked to buy, since my girlfriend and I have been watching it on AS and saw previews at Otakon. It might be a bit cliche'd but I find it still worthwhile. I have found Basalisk and Speed Grapher also thouroughly entertaining. I think all 3 are a nice new step for Funi. They haven't been know for more darker and deeper anime in the past. I think the "big 3" help round out Funi's selection a bit better.That's my 2 cents anyway. |
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Curtis W.
 Posts: 94 Location: KCMO |
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This is coming out here in the states soon, is it not. I really want to see it now, Sounds kinda like bebop in a way.
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Dranxis
 Posts: 591 Location: Ohtori Academy |
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Great to see some discussion on Ergo Proxy. I just finished it and although the ending left me with some mixed feelings, on the whole I'd say this is my favorite series this year, if not all time.
Certain things in the ending confused me, but looking back at information given out in earlier episodes, I'd say that spoiler[the "creator" was actually former humanity itself. Humanity had been waiting in outer space for the artificial human societies created by the Proxies to terraform the earth, so that when they returned life on earth would be suitable to their tastes. Once they returned, the Proxies and their domed societies would no longer be needed, and therefore destroyed. Hence why Vincent chose to rebel against the "Creator" in the end to protect the humanity he had created and come to love]. Of course, this is only what I gathered after reading countless internet blogs on the subject... I'm terrible at developing my own interpretations without at least hearing about those of others. 
Anyway, it's not for everyone but this is a fantastic series that I really recommend people pick up this November. Quite simply, Ergo Proxy's just got alot of great stuff packed into it. For me personally I'd say my favorite aspect of it aside from the theme of Creator vs. Creation is the romance between Vincent in Real. It's odd to call something "cute" in a series like EP, but in a way it is. I guess I'll never escape my fangirlish tendencies. 
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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Thanks for your comments HellKorn, I will definitely pick this one up again. Also I do know that Konaka is one of the major driving forces behind the two ABe productions mentioned, I can't speak for other ABe fans but I tend to use the name simply for convenience, and also the contributions he and Ueda have in the projects.
From people's discussion of the ending though, I'm greatly encouraged. Generally as soon as a few people begin discussing elements of a production that they found confusing, my kitsune ears prick up. Many series which others have found a little bewildering, I've really loved, I absolutely love the sometimes greatly ambiguous nature of many anime narratives, and also the greatly interpretive and representative elements also. Of-course, some of you have mentioned that you were underwhelmed which on the other hand discouraging, as it may denote that you understood it well enough, it just fell short of the expectations that the rest of the series set up for you. So much so has happened with me in regards to Samurai Champloo, but I was never very keen on the series in any case. Just a note: are spoiler-tags not working in the Topic review when we post? |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Good to know that more people are getting interested in it.
The majority of those who've rated it on ANN seemed to be rather disappointed in it (I mean, rated in the 1300s?), but I decided to take a risk and was able to convince my mom to buy all seven volumes and the art box as an early birthday present. The premise appeals to me greatly as does the main theme ("Whose side are you on?"), and since I've come to disagree with the overall ratings on ANN in the past (Blue Gender is the best example of this), I hope that Gilgamesh turns out to be a worthwhile viewing and purchase.
November 21st for both the regular edition of the first volume and the special edition with the art box.
There are shades of Samurai Champloo in Ergo Proxy, and since Watanabe directed both that and Cowboy Bebop, I'm not too surprised.
Don't forget Pino. I mean, really, the interaction between all three in episode sixteen was just an absolute joy to watch. |
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Dranxis
Posts: 591 Location: Ohtori Academy |
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Ha, of course! I love Pino, she keeps the series from taking itself too seriously. And yeah, I'd say episode 16 was my favorite of them all.
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