Forum - View topicQuestion about shoujo (need female feedback too).
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11440 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I finished watching Maria-sama ga Miteru last night (just started Season 2 today) and have to say it was Excellent stuff.
I don't have too many shoujo series under my belt, let alone something with shoujo-ai like MariMite, but for some reason I genuinely liked this series a lot. The relationships these girls had and the tribulations they faced to discover themselves and solidify some sort of identity for one another was really touching. Something I've come to notice about these interactions, though, is a little of the frailty that exists in their bonding. Being a shoujo title and obviously aimed at female audiences, is that kind of frailty something common in this genre? In (serious) romance titles, I notice a majority of girls are commonly depicted as real sensitive, but only in the extreme as either very stubborn or very fickle. They have a lot of trouble making up their minds or accepting something, though it usually works out in the end. Is there some kind of psychological or social element that factors into this? I've not met any girl like this in real life (at least in the U.S), so I can't really comment. Am I reading too much into this theme, or is it just something I don't understand because I'm a guy? I'd like to get some feedback from all of you, but would appreciate any detailed accounts from the ladies on your own experiences and how all of you (guys and girls) think shoujo titles portray female characters. Oh, and I guess I'll ask for recommendations too. This is basically all the shoujo anime I've seen (like I said, not very much -_-). Some top titles of this genre I've heard about already include: Cardcaptor Sakura: Sounds cutesy with the grade school characters, but also sounds like it could be a lot of fun. I actually prefer action/adventure-type series with children or young teens because they normally don't come off as being too angsty. I also find that the innocence of youth is a lot easier to comprehend and that it makes for better character interaction. Being a Madhouse produced series, I'm sure the animation is pretty good as well. Fruits Basket: It looks like it can be a great romantic comedy. But what worries me is that the director is the creator of Jubei-chan, which I thought was crap. Looks like there're loads of great seiyuu, though. The whole curse premise sounds like it can create lots of laughs too, but I'm more interested in character interaction. I've read a few Furuba threads (no spoilers) in the past that talk about who should've ended up with who, so I take it the ending is somewhat incomplete? Full Moon wo Sagashite: From reading the plot summary, it sounds like it could be tragic  . But the artwork looks way too cute and the part about "divine intervention" looks like it won't turn out as bad as I think it might. From what I've heard, I take it there's a lot of singing in this. Being a former choir member (Baritone), I'm all for it  .
Thanks. EDIT: Trying to fix spelling and grammar. Last edited by Tony K. on Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mercury Crusader
 Posts: 67 |
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I'm going to highly recommend Cardcaptor Sakura simply because it is fun to watch. The DVD sets are not too pricy if you know where to look (I got them from Right Stuf when Geneon DVDs were like 40% off one time). Also, Sakura is a good girl who cares about her family and all Sakura hentai out there is awful and I wish cancer upon you people who support it. (I am a 22 year old male and a fan of this show, I am not a pedo, GET OFF MY BACK!)
I'm also going to recommend Kodomo no Omocha which was released stateside as Kodocha, although I think people are referring to it as more a "comedy" show than a "shoujo" show. The comedy is worth the price of admission. However, I have issues with the first volume DVD (the Japanese audio track anyways, which was kind of beyond Funimation's control anyhow, but regardless it is kind of depressing). The rest of the volumes seem alright. Comedy option Sailor Moon if you can find the horribly pricy out-of-print uncut ADV releases of the first two seasons, as well as Geneon's S and Super S seasons. I was a big fan of Sailor Mercury back in the day (still kind of am suprise suprise), and the monster-of-the-day formula may annoy some, but I like the camp. |
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epixeltwin
 Posts: 325 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada |
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Wouldn't that be the whole point to it? The conflict comes from this...it would not hold any value if the character was too straightforward. The frailty is just a means to get the climax. I'm not a romance expert, but the standard story goes like this: Interesting meeting > Reluctant to have a relationship > Barriers are brought down, bonds are forged> characters have fun together/like each other > **CLIMAX TIME** there's a tension, a betrayal or a misunderstanding > Dénouement: the apology or the efforts not to lose the other reveal one's true love > happy ending Even though I'm stereotyping, this is how I'm seeing it, and I think it works. It's even valid for shounen romance. I think you can relate it to some shounen sport/fighting titles. The interest of the show comes from the main character OVERCOMING his weaknesses/polishing his talents/beating his enemies. |
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.Sy
Posts: 1266 |
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I haven't been exposed to that much shoujo either, but I've noticed that the girls frequently seem to be depicted as completely useless (i.e. Kagome from Inu-Yasha) or sometimes very determined if she happens to be striving for a clear goal (i.e. to become a pro singer). Sometimes I catch a minor character being extremely loud or stubborn, but main characters don't seem to come that way. For the most part, I find quite a large proportion of sensitive or soft girls that honestly don’t act like very many people I’ve met. I’m not sure why, but maybe in Japanese culture girls are expected to be more of the “sweet and sensitive” type? I’m just saying that very tentatively, so please don’t take my comment the wrong direction. I mean, there are other subtelties to relationships that don't have to occur with a shy person.
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epixeltwin
Posts: 325 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada |
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Useless girls who get rescued by the up-and-coming male hero and Inu-Yasha are both shouNEN, not shoujo. |
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nailz
 Posts: 30 Location: USA |
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I think epixeltwin has got it right.
I have a hard time watching/reading most shoujo (although I love it) because the female characters are so stereotyped. No backbone! Say what you mean! etc. But that would make for a short show. It drives me crazy that a lot the shoujo characters center around "why can't I get/have a boyfriend?" There is much more to the world of girls than dating in school. I guess my whole point is I'd like to see a shoujo title with a little more complex content, not which guy should I choose. I do realize most titles are aimed at teens (or it just feels that way to me). As for Kagome from Inu-Yasha (yes, definitely a shounen series), I don't think she was useless at all. A useless girl would have jumped her butt right back down that well and forgotten everything. Inu-Yasha is not nice to Kagome at all. I think she's got moxy. She stayed and did what was right. She may not have been able to jump right into battle, but she's a modern girl from a different world. I think she tried to help as best she could, even trying to improve her archery. |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Not having seen Maria-sama... (I thought that was a shounen romance ala Strawberry Panic (which I cannot see as being shoujo no matter if ANN lists it as such)? If not, I need to be watching it, since shoujo actually does shoujo-ai in a wonderful way), I can't really comment on the portrayal of the female characters.
However, in the shoujo that I watch and like, the young girl/women characters often are particularly strong and are stuck with especially weak males (exception being Fushigi Yuugi where the guys did all the work). Oh sure, there are some idiotic leads from time to time, but usually at least the side characters have sense. It's very empowering to watch certain shows (ie Utena). Anyway, you asked for recommendations. And buddy, I'm going to give them. First off, lets go with something from the Fushigi Yuugi-era. Magic Knight Rayearth, CLAMP's first big hit, I believe. It's a magical-girl show, but without the transformation sequences, and since it's CLAMP, it's usually a bit more than meets the eye. Featuring three teenagers being sent to another world to save it, it suffers a bit from Monster of the Week illness early on. However, the dark leanings of the show, as well as the wonderful conclusion of the first season makes it worth going through. The second season is probably 'better' in terms of writing, but lost a bit of the charm of the first season in my opinion. Also, the OAV, Rayearth should be avoided until after seeing the series. It's turned a lot of people off of the show. Next, we'll go with something a bit more recent: Revolutionary Girl Utena. This is personally my favorite anime, and I know there are a few others on ANN that really enjoyed it as well. This show features a very strong female lead. This is often a turn-off, because so frequently such characters will turn into Mary Sue's, particularly as the series moves forward. What's nice about Utena is that you are able to see more and more of her flaws as the series progresses. She isn't perfect, and it's very refreshing. I recommend the series first, and then the movie. If you watch it in the opposite order, realize that the movie and the series have very little in common aside from technically the same characters (look the same, sound the same, have the same names, but have different personalities). And finally, I'll throw out NANA, which I feel is the best new series out this year in Japan (and yes, I have seen SHnY). It's a sort of Japanese "Odd Couple", although rather than emphasizing the differences between the two women's personalities, they instead seem to show the similarities that they manage to have even with opposing personalities. It gets a little melodramatic from time to time, but with a wonderful cast of characters, strong voice-acting, and some very creative character designs (Komatsu Nana is never in the same outfit twice it seems), it's definitely worth at least checking out. Although thus far I think the manga is a bit better, even though the anime is following it very closely--certain parts just worked better still than animated in my opinion. |
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unhealthyman
 Posts: 306 |
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I'm far from an expert (Fruits Basket being the only one out of your list that I have even seen,) but it is less of a definate shoujo title from what I understand. The romance is quite understated and not entirely central to the story - it is more a case of the friendships between the characters and how it develops. I don't even think you can really talk about 'who should've ended up with who,' at the ending, but I did definately have some criticisms of the last 2 episodes (and I think most people agree with me.) Anyway, my spoiler free description is that it is basically based around a central female character (Tohru) and her interactions with a family of mostly male characters. (The Sohma family) Tohru is a pretty strong female character (from my limited knowledge of Shoujo,) she isn't annoying or fickle. Up until the last 2 episodes, it is a really lovely character driven anime which I found a joy to watch. The ending (which apparently is better in the manga,) did let me down, but I still enjoyed the whole series. I've also heard it described as a shoujo which is pretty accessible to blokes (or just non-shoujo fans.) Just my 2 cents... 
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Very true, but you're right, it applies to much much more than just romance. It applies to nearly every relationship story ever, if you boil those steps down to the feeling they're trying to convey: Characters meet > drama hightens tension > tension turned from hate to love (or enemies to friends, w/e) > character/world development > trials and tribulations > resolution The formula varies only slightly, usually with only a switched order for different genres. Back to Tony:
I've been wondering this question myself recently. I can think of HUNDREDS of examples in anime (ESPECIALLY shoujo) where girls seem to have a lack of basic trust in their friends, while the number of friendships where doubt isn't an issue I can easily count on one hand. I've also noticed that most guys in anime have an almost unrealistic amount of trust in their friends (I'm that way too) that is nearly always well founded (not quite as true in real life  ).
Are girls really that afraid of their friends betraying them? Do girls really betray each other that often? Are friendships between high school girls really broken off over some petty matter or misunderstanding because they're too stubborn to talk? (Please, notice my usage of the word "girl", not "woman") I know my sister for one is certainly the drama type, it seems like there is never a moment where drama is not present between my sister and her relationships with everyone around her. |
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PantsGoblin
Subscriber Encyclopedia Editor  Posts: 2969 Location: L.A. |
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Not just females (although more often than not it is, just because I think girls in general are more sensitive), but I've noticed in general, the Japanese population seems to be more sensitive. You reminded me of a sad experience I encountered while in Japan... While on one of the trains, I remember seeing a little girl crying on the bus. Probably around the age of 11 or 12. She had one of her friends next to her supporting her. I don't know what she went through, but I'm thinking it must have been something serious for her to cry like that. If I were to understand the language, I honestly would have said something to her, made me feel really sad. Also, I remember reading on that popular blog about the guy teaching school in Japan that Graduation ceremonies had A LOT of crying involved (can't say the same for the US, most kids seem to be glad to get out of school). I can say I rarely ever see anybody cry in public in the US (children throwing hissy fits because they don't get what they want don't count, I'm talking about really crying). Actually the only times I can remember were when I was in school (elementry and middle school only though). |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Oh, totally forgot recommendations
got distracted
I'll agree with the Nana recommendation, it's a fabulous show, just don't watch the first episode and be prepared for 2.5 episodes of Nana #1 crap first. After that though, it's really a VERY VERY good show. Strawberry Panic - Most DEFINITELY a shoujo, just watch it and you'll see. I would go so far as to say it's probably the closest definition to shoujo-ai as I can think of, everything from the artwork, to the story, to the pacing, to even the mannerisms. Hainvg said that, I adore the show. Princess Princess - a shoujo about guys?! Throughout the first half of this show, I was giggling like a little school girl. You know, that laugh you get when you're watching something that makes you feel really uncomfortable but you find really really funny and just can't help it? Yeah, this was a pretty big surprise for me that I liked it. |
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Mylene
Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Are you sure about that? I mean the manga ran in Comic Dengeki Daioh, which I thought catered to more of a male crowd (but I could be wrong)... And according to the official website, it runs from 26:45 to 27:15. Isn't that when they put on the stuff for the otaku male? (Moreover, would 26:45 be 2:45am? If not then I apologize.) The main reason I question its shoujo qualification is that the romance is portrayed the way men would want to see it. I'm a very big fan of shoujo-ai when written for a shoujo manga/anime. However, when it's purpose seems to be turning on guys (which is how I feel about almost all Strawberry Panic! relationships aside from Akane and Hikari), it loses the wonderful qualities it has in shoujo shows. And sorry if that was too off-topic, but it seemed appropriate to clarify to the classification of the show. |
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epixeltwin
Posts: 325 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada |
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You seem to be quite like the shoujo specialist. I'd have to check Magic Knight Rayearth, Nana and Strawberry Panic! out.
I've seen a few eps of Fruits Basket and they weren't too great. |
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HitokiriShadow
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Somewhat? It is far from complete. It still has a great ending as it ends with the resolution of a good arc, but it is not complete by any means. The anime only covers roughly the first 5 volumes of the manga with a little bit pulled from volumes 6 and 7, I think. The romance is non-existant in the anime (at least as far as Tohru is concerned) and it doesn't even BEGIN to come into play in the manga until around volume 10, but as of volume 14, there still isn't much regarding a relationship involving her. Romance isn't the focus of this series.
I highly recommend this series. The first half of the series focuses almost entirely on the singing aspect and can be descriped as "fillerish" (though by no means bad) but since you like that, I don't think that will be a problem. Other highly recommended series: Kodocha is great stuff. I've only seen what's been released in the U.S. (well, I've read all of the manga as well, but the anime seems to diverge at somepoint) but I've enjoyed every second of it. It wild and zany, but also has good drama and relationships. Ceres: Celestial Legend Since you liked X and Fushigi Yuugi, I think you will like this. It's very dark and violent and plot focused. Some of the manga fans claim the series is terrible because some things were removed from the manga, but you won't even notice if you haven't read the manga. The two story arcs removed were not very important and their removal makes the series flow better in my opinion. The bigger loss is one character who appeared much more in the manga but only has a small role in the anime, largely do to the aforementioned arcs' removal. Also, this series has great music and is one of the few anime to make me cry. I also managed to get my friend who isn't into anime (although he liked DBZ when it was on CN back in the day) to watch and enjoy this series. It's also available in two complete sets that retail for $50 each but you should be able to get both of them for around $70 total. If you don't have qualms with fansubs, I recommend Ouran High School Host Club. This is an absolutely hilarious series but also good for character relationships which you seem to be looking for. It is also a rare case of the anime surpassing the manga (the material it covers at least, as the manga is still going so its either going to have an unresolved ending or create its own ending).
Strawberry Panic is aimed at guys. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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I second this series. It's an interesting thing to see how the relationships between everybody develop in this story, and the adventures themselves are amusing enough to make you want to watch it more.
Agreed. Romance is kind of left out even in the manga I feel, it's more of trying to make that romance come to life, and in the case of what's going on right now in the series, that may not happen. |
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