Forum - View topicRahXephon (in response to ANN's podcast).
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 10015 Location: Virginia |
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I, for one, just picked RahXephon up because of the discussion in the pod cast, I haven't yet had time to watch it. Fortunately I seldom read some posters comments so it hasn't been spoiled for me yet.
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MadShadow42
 Posts: 56 |
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What I was saying about the relationship, Blood-, was that spoiler[I had a much easier time accepting that Haruka would love Ayato after all those years because by the time it was revealed to us, I'd already seen them interacting together in the present day, which made the bond between them more believable to me. It was like the show was saying they would come back together no matter what world they were living in (and by the way, Ayato didn't "forget" Haruka, his memory of her was wiped).] That always struck me as a damn clever way for the writers to handle it.
I dunno man, I think Fullmetal Alchemist and Wolf's Rain hold up really well too... but those are divisive shows in their own rights. Perhaps we shouldn't open that can of worms here. I love all three to pieces. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24136 |
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@ MadShadow42 - thanks for correcting my memory of why spoiler[Ayato couldn't make the connection between the adult Haruka and the younger one. This is part of the reason why I want to rewatch.] Can you think of any specific events/conversations between spoiler[Ayato and the adult Haruka that made it seem like they are suited for each other?] I genuinely can't.
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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That’s the problem. The characters that mattered added up to about 30, a lot of whom were totally unnecessary. They got all the development they needed because there just wasn’t very much to any of them in the first place. If you’re writing a show with huge central cast you’re not going to give them much depth to develop to start with. Think Naruto. As for the characters, I'll admit there were a few superficial ones here and there but they didn't get in the way of the core cast's characterization
The problem is the pointless characters make up a good chunk of the core cast.
Really, because I’ve never read anyone say that even on an Evangelion forum. Most people who like Evangelion and have seen RahXephon also like it.There’s about 10 or so reviews of it on youtube which is a pretty neutral indicator. All are very positive.
Then why do they need to have human/humanoid form and human emotions? Either they’re from another dimension or they’re not.
I don’t really get the “vs.” part because the Mu seemed to be on both sides of the conflict. It felt contrived to me. Plus if the Mulians have the technology to slow down time, they’re basically at God status anyway, so having a conflict between them and human beings is pretty redundant. Overall, I really didn’t feel that during the battles there was very much at stake.
Firstly, hinting at something repeatedly before it is revealed doesn’t improve its credibility if it’s conceptually ridiculous. Secondly, the hinting parts weren’t really consistent with the general behaviour of the characters in the episodes where they happened. It felt like they’d been injected into the script at a later point. Also I don’t remember Ayato and Haruka even having that many seens together after ep3. As I remember she kind of disappears for quite a while. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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RahXephon was the best from it's particular sub-genre (mecha apocalypse?) that I've watched. The reason why I enjoyed it so much is because it took a story concept I thought was interesting but had never been done quite right, and succeeded where other series had failed in making it good. Not to mention it added a romance, which I'm always up for. It's not the greatest show ever, but it was better than similar shows in the same vein, in my opinion, and was pretty entertaining.
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MadShadow42
Posts: 56 |
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Nope, aside from Elvy's crew and those two male bridge bunnies, just about all the characters still had important roles to play, even if they were minor ones. The less central characters got just enough development to fill their roles and come across as believable people (my opinion) while the central cast was fleshed out much more thoroughly. Much like Fullmetal Alchemist, it was able to balance its cast out pretty well, but it runs on subtlety so if you're not paying attention you will miss a lot of important interactions.
See my argument above.
Believe me, this show has its detractors. They're just wrong 
You're splitting hairs, but my theory is that they're either an alternate/parallel possibility to humanity (their blue blood seems to mark them as "higher humans" or they merged with humanity upon entering our dimension. Either way, the sci-fi aspects of the story are NOT THE POINT.
The Mu themselves weren't on both sides of the conflict, no. Are you thinking of spoiler[Bahbem, because he's not with the Mu, he was working on the humans' side of the conflict to further his own agenda (and the Mu themselves actually became somewhat sympathetic by the end)]. Either way, RahXephon isn't actually a war story, it's about a much smaller and more personal conflict fleshed out through large-scale events in a world that's crumbling around these characters.
I think we'll agree to disagree. If you absolutely cannot swallow the idea that someone would spoiler[still love her first love after all so many years and a time difference], then that's your problem not the show's. Still, the fact that spoiler[Ayato had changed very little from the boy she'd known might have actually reinforced her feelings for him, as it would mean he hadn't grown too far apart from her and was still truly the one she remembered loving.] In answer to your second complaint... I just don't see it. The story was planned from start to finish, and I felt like the characters were very consistent. You mentioned it's been years since you've seen it, I feel like you're just making stuff up at this point. As for Haruka, she was there from start to finish. Even when they were separated, they still thought about each other and reflected on their relationship a lot. I feel like I've mostly said my piece at this point. I'm arguing with two people who saw the show four years ago and admit that they're not sure about a lot of things... I suspect any further argument will probably come down to the aesthetics of whether you like/can get behind the characters. At the end of the day, I still hold it to be one of the best anime I've ever seen (I don't think there's a single greatest ever nor would I consider placing this at #1 if I did, but if we're doing a top 25 or so I'm sure it's on there somewhere), but I do understand why some people don't think it's worth the effort. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24136 |
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MadShadow42 - so you can't even put forward a single significant exchange or event between spoiler[Ayano and the adult Haruka that dramatizes their *cough* amazing suitability?] Yeah, thought not. Pretty hard to point to something that doesn't actually exist.
I agree that my poor memor limits the specificity of my criticisms (improving that will require a rewatch) but for someone who has a better memory of the show and far more affection for it, you have been surprisingly light on specifics yourself about what you believe is good about the show. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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What purpose did Hiroko, Kim or Souichi serve to the plot? Those are just three examples I’ve picked.
Ayato was a Mulian, his brother was, Quon was,Ayato’s two friends were, I thought Bahbem was but maybe I was wrong about that. They seem to pretty much be interchangeable with the humans.
It is the show’s problem if it’s not reflective of reasonably realistic human psychology. We’re not talking about a personal preference here like, “I don’t like stories with romance”. Try and imagine the relationship with the genders switched. Is it still romantic?
It’s not consistent. Initially she just constantly flirts with him including teasing him about dating her sister. It’s only when he decides to run back to Tokyo does she decides that spoiler[she can’t live without him and that all the decisions in her life for the past 16 years have been based around being with him.] |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18435 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I find it very amusing (and rather irksome) that the "subtleties" that some are lauding this series for - subtleties apparently so subtle that they require multiple viewings to notice - are the same kind of obtuseness that several other series have been lambasted for, and sometimes by the same person.
Maybe someday I'll rewatch this series to see if I can catch all of these supposed subtleties, but my apathy towards this franchise has remained unflagged since I originally watched it. Only episode 19 actually resonated with me. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13239 |
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It's one of those "There's so many nothing specific comes to mind" things.
A select few members of a race on one side doesn't negate the whole 'Vs' aspect. Or are you telling me that Naturals and Coordinators weren't really at war in Gundam SEED because Kira was on the Natural's side? Bahbem was a Mulian, and the one who caused the whole mess in the first place. I may be getting the movie and TV series mixed up, but spoiler[Mu was an advanced civilization like Atlantis until Bahbem tried to play God, resulting in the entire continent being stuck in another dimension. He got kicked out to Earth where he lived for many years by body hopping, trying the whole God thing again on that side.] |
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MadShadow42
Posts: 56 |
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That's a bit uncalled for. I got caught up with Arkthelad's issues but that doesn't mean I don't have a reply to yours. But I think Vaisaga puts it best, there were a lot of little moments instead of a few obvious big ones, which is very different from what a lot of anime fans are used to. People bond over little things like that, from sharing a dumb joke that's only funny when two people are alone together (RahXephon Van Winkle) to shared taste in food, to a song they both remember from their childhood, to being there to welcome each other home. It's those human touches that really drive home the cast's humanity, to me at least.
See, their roles weren't so much in the plot, but more as foils to the more central cast. Hiroko in particular proved to Ayato that the Mu weren't all monsters, that they were hurting from the conflict as much as the humans were, while at the same time reflecting what he could have become if he hadn't found a purpose to serve. She was a perfect foil to Ayato, and her death also made Mamoru start to question his own role. Souichi and Kim were simpler characters, and I'd venture to call Kim in particular one of the less important characters, but they were probably among the most "ordinary" characters in the series, and they helped Ayato to feel more human and to better connect to humanity as a whole, which is essential in a narrative of this scope.
You're talking about them as a race, not as a nation or military force. Does the word "defection" mean anything to you? As for Ayato's two friends (Hiroko and Mamoru, I assume you mean them), Hiroko tried and failed to leave the Mu, while Mamoru was a high-ranking officer of the Mu army. You have no argument.
It could be, why not? Koi Kaze (which I haven't watched yet) has a relationship with a similar age gap and the genders switched, and I've heard all good things about that show. This is a non-argument. She's a 29-year-old woman, he's a 17-year-old boy. I've heard more ridiculous stories than that.
Right, because people always say exactly what they mean  She didn't feel threatened and she knew there was no way Ayato and Megumi would actually hook up, of course she would tease him, but she was also afraid of rejection so she didn't push too far until the fear of losing him (again) became real. It's not that complicated.
I can't speak for everyone but I'm new to this forum, I have a clean slate. And I'll admit I'm exaggerating a bit, I picked up on a lot of what the show was going for on my first viewing, but I always discover something new with each subsequent viewing, such as a key plot point that I missed the first time around. A lot of early details take on completely different meanings in the context of later events. And as far as my taste in anime goes that's pretty consistent with my usual preferences, I like things I can get more out of every time and I love characters who can say one thing and communicate something completely different. Still, what people say about opera can be applied to RahXephon (which is pretty funny when you think about it): when you first watch it, you either love it or you don't. If you're the latter, you may come to appreciate it but it'll never truly resonate with you. If that sounds snobbish, I don't mean it that way. I'm just saying that I think it works very, very well for what it aspires to, but no matter how good it is it's just not a show that everyone can enjoy, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the latter group. |
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ManOfRust
 Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I'm not a big fan of the show (although I did enjoy it) but the animation was nice and the music really does stand out. This is one series for which I picked up the soundtrack CD in addition to the series DVDs. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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In Rah it was never clear how many Mulians were actually on the “Tokyo Jupiter” side so it appeared to me that both sides were kind of equally Mulian influenced. Never seen Gundam Seed but I’m assuming both groups in that were human but one group has genetic engineering like the newtypes. In Rah they’re supposed to be two different species but it never felt like an inter-species conflict.
Slowing down time=God status. How much more God like could they be?
Why would that have needed to be proven? He already knew that he himself was a Mulian at that point, and even if he hadn’t what influence did this revelation (about the Mu not all being monsters) actually have on his later decisions?
A foil is a character whose purpose is to act as an obstacle to the protagonist reaching their goal. How does Hiroko do that?
Kim got an entire episode of characterisation (after only being introduced in the previous ep) and then goes onto play no important role in the series. What was the point of that? If Souichi was just intended to be a supporting character then they shouldn’t have developed the relationship between him and Kim which put both of them in the foreground but with no purpose to the plot.
Not in the context of inter-species warfare. Especially when the species are supposed to be vastly different from eachother, with one being vastly superior to the other. Also, not when both sides are lead by villainous members of the same species. This goes back to problem of writing science fiction that I mentioned before.
You’ve made my point. The older brother in Koi Kaze is presented as being emotionally disturbed, and that his decisions are based on this unhealthy mental state. It’s not the prospect of romance between people of different ages that I don’t buy in RahXephon. It’s how and why they get there.
When is it suggested that she knows there’s no way this could happen? If I remember correctly, wasn’t she relieved when Megumi announces she wasn’t interested in him anymore. That suggests to me that she did feel threatened. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13239 |
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It's still a conflict between 2 factions.
Oh I dunno, how about spoiler[remaking the whole world like Ayato did at the end?] |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The thing about RahXephon is that spoiler[there weren't two factions. The entire war in the first place was just a ruse (though it probably felt real to the millions of victims), and the dolem attacks were simply part of Ayato's training. While it is true that the Mu looked down on humans, and while it is also true that most of humanity genuinely thought the Mu were evil alien invaders, the point of the entire show was to tune the world.] Everything that happened was merely to that end, even if many of the characters themselves did not know the truth about why anything was happening.
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