Forum - View topicFansubbing ethics from (yet another) pov
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W2k
Posts: 10 |
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That's just ignorant of recent history. Take the entertainment/software industries. Distributing illegal copies of Britney Spears tracks, The Matrix Reloaded or Windows XP has never been legal, and companies have fought it since it began. It still happens every day. "Cracking down" has had essentially zero effect on the warez community. Illegal copies of music, movies software and whatnot are now easier to find than they ever were before, thanks largely to P2P networks and BitTorrent. In addition, all of this is being distributed via public web sites, the URL's of which the forum rules here probably prohibit me from posting. If fansubbers find themselves suddenly being treated like warez monkeys by the anime industry, sure, some will quit. But you can bet there will be others to take their place. It will all move underground, releases will be anonymous, and the net effect on the leeches will be ZERO - anime will still be readily available simply because there'll still be a demand for it, and people with the means to deliver. Also, such actions from the anime companies would probably be interpreted as high treason by many fansubbers. And the anime industry would have made enemies out of those who would be their best customers (not including the leechers), just like the rest of the entertainment industry before them. The anime industry should consider itself LUCKY to have a customer base which will not only promote their products for free, but will largely cease distribution of the illegal copies, no questions asked, as soon as those products are announced in the US. Note: I'm in no way advocating that the wide piracy of entertainment and software products that goes on throughout the Internet is morally or ethically right. It's just the Way Things Are. Welcome to the new world, baby. |
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Sharp kun
Posts: 22 Location: Scotland |
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[quote="W2k"]
The difference is that those are mostly done by individuals, who can just post them and leave it. With fansubs you have to be more open, as you need to get raws from somewhere, get translators etc. Its a far more open thing, and not something that can easily be made more "hidden"
And then fansubs loose any "legitimacy" they might have had. Also, as I've pointed out, fansubs aren't like other internet piracy, their not something that can easily go underground.
And? Its well within companies rights to take them to court. If fansubbers suddenly stop respecting companies, as some are starting to, then companies are even more likely to take them to court. Legally, fansubbers have no excuse, if it goes to court all the "ethics" mean nothing. What they do is illegal, and that is how any judge will see it. We have a very tolerant industry, some fansubbers seem to forget that.
Not me. I watch fansubs, but I also was hopeing AJ would get legal action against them, just to shake the rest into line.
No, the fansubbers should consider THEMSELVES lucky that the industry is so tolerant of them. As I have said, what they do is illegal, and the industry lets them. Some people dont' seem to realise just how lucky we are about that.
That is the point - "largely". All it takes is a group like AJ to make a company decide fansubs aren't worth it, and "poof", we have a crackdown on fansubs, that pretty much kills them off completely. Fansubbers have to act to a code, similar to the one ANN suggested. Otherwise they are very likely to face a crackdown. The code isn't that hard to follow of your a proper fansubber. If your like AJ then it is, but good fansubbers shouldn't have too much trouble |
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Kaorimoch
Posts: 16 |
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W2k, you are losing your argument ‘for’ this code of ethics when you start telling companies to accept an erosion in their paid-for anime license rights or you will go underground. Creating an ethical code is not about finding an excuse to do whatever you want (that’s called justification), its about finding the high moral ground and applying principles of right conduct which will benefit all.
Here is the law - If an anime company was made aware of someone taking advantage of their copyright, and they did not enforce it, they lose the right to legally protect their copyright in court. You are holding a gun to the head of the anime companies and saying “Here, accept this code or we will go underground” and they can’t accept such a code. They will lose the ability to enforce their copyright and it allows people in a similar situation to defend themselves from future actions. They will go to court against these groups, not because they want to, but because they have to. If AJ had not dropped Ninja Scroll, they would have legal muscle applied to them or Urban Vision’s rights to the series would have been worth mud. If you decide to release an early version of a licensed series because the licensed company was ‘too slow’ (eg Last Exile) they would have to come after you. If you decided to release Sailor Moon subbed as DiC weren’t doing it, they would have to come after you too for the same reason. We either apply a code that respects and maximizes the copyright holder’s legal right to make a buck out of their series or we lose fansubs. Its that simple. Then all you will have are ‘bootleg’ groups as you couldn’t call them ‘fans-who-sub’. Money is the ink that guides the anime creator’s hands to create the masterpieces we appreciate today. This is the real world. Piracy arguments and socialist theory applied to property distribution are just delusional fantasies. |
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W2k
Posts: 10 |
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All warez releases aren't one-man jobs. Sure, anyone can rip a CD or a DVD. But when it comes to stuff that requires sneaking a video camera into a movie theater, or "borrowing" a DVD screener or a pre-release copy of a new software, or anything involving breaking copy protection, of course there will be more than one person involved, not counting the distros. Besides, thanks to the existence of such software as IIP, Blowfish, FreeNet and WASTE, even large groups can operate underground on the 'net without risk of detection or exposure. Translators and raws are likely to continue to exist in ample supply, unless the japanese government manages to block all of the above technologies, in addition to illegalizing TV capture cards. Neither is likely to happen.
Legitimacy? In whose eyes? According to the law, fansubs have no legitimacy. The general public (aka the leechers) don't give a damn about legitimacy so long as they get free anime. What's left is the anime industry, and as should be clear by now, their cooperation is NOT NECESSARY for fansubs to exist - though it greatly helps, no doubt about that.
Actually, both we the fansubbers and the anime industry should consider (our|them)selves lucky because at least for the time being, there is a BALANCE between our two camps. It is in our interest as well as theirs to protect that balance, it doesn't just go one way. We both gain from the current Way Things Are (so long as the anime companies keep releasing high quality stuff and we the fansubbers continue to stay within what the anime companies will accept, however grudgingly - AJ's little screw-up was certainly over the border) but they are the ones who have the most to lose if the balance is lost.
Good fansubbers work with the fans' best interests in mind. This is incompatible with ANN's code, which would have fansubbers work with the anime companies' best interests in mind. In a perfect world the two goals would be compatible, but such a world does not exist. I think ANN should start their own fansubbing group, adhering strictly to the set of ethics they've published. See how many people download those releases |
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W2k
Posts: 10 |
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Time-out for a sec. Most of the feedback I've received so far, especially the negative feedback, has revolved around paragraph 3c of my code of ethics:
This is probably the part of the code which anime companies would dislike the most as well. This is counter-productive to one of the purposes of the code: To try and find a balance between the fans' and the anime companies' interests. Having thought about it and discussed it with others at sometimes great length, I think that paragraph needs to be changed, because in its present form, it does allow for fansubs to compete with commercial releases. All said and done, that is in violation of one of the basic principles of fansubbing. Talk to ya later. |
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Ghost
Posts: 26 |
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Didn't I say it was off-topic? You are using words "sad and pity" to describe a company is ridiculous and melodramatic. If you want to do a piece on "Macbeth", you are quite welcome to join the Lee Strausberg's Actors' Studio or a board on how to enroll and let us discuss it this in a realistic matter.
No, one should do that! But it happens! That's why companies have the legal power to fight it! ...And have done it by force! Companies are fully aware of piracy and are prepared for it. I owned a business and was prepared for copyright infringment and I had a lawyer.
Like it or not, the anime you see today was brought to you by fansubbers. Anime is now a big business thanks to early efforts of fandom. ...Of course, they are some fans who are only expose to commercial anime and they're also others who aren't exposed to any anime. So why make ignorant remarks when you obviously aren't exposed to the fansub community? So what, if people call anime companies thieves? Some of them are as well as some fansubbers. People in fact, were upset, mainly from the fansub community. When anime started slowly to get licensed, it was in dubbed form at prices from $14.99 to $21.99 for a 30 minute episode. Then later, when it was subtitled, the prices ranged from $29.99 to $34.99 for a 30-45 minute video. Eventually, dvd came along solved the problem. I've learned in whenever something is created to make money, like a bag, anime, etc... people will always looking for easy way to get over! The business owner must aware be of that, and be prepared for anything! With that mentality in mind, you will truimph. Look at this way, if those who want to stick with their badly translated commercial or fansub script rip-off HK DVDs', low resolution vcds or 9th general VHS fansubs, they're a lost cause. Those who desire quality such as audio/video and perfect translations will be purchase R1 DVD's. If they get don't get it, believe me they will bitch. ...And lately they have. As of yet, I haven't seen anyone advocating theft here, if they were, I'm sure the moderators will delete that post. We in the fansub community are quite aware of credit-striping, fansubs that are auctioned on E-bay, and R1 rippers who aren't fansubbers, they copy R1 DVDs to a DVD-R. ...being that fansubs are illegal, when sites have that type of piracy, someone in the community always turns them in. As a matter of fact, even some fansubbers say they won't hesistate to report them. Fansub ethics are all ready established within the community.
No they don't make the headlines, but it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. If you own it, Cease & Desit never fails! Anime companies are a business of enterntainment and the law is on their side. If they don't excercise their right as copyright holders, they shouldn't be business. Funanimation went crazy with the C& D letters when distros was distributing fansubs of DBZ, and continue to do so. Fansub/Digisubs make a dent, but HK DVDs' and DVD rippers creates a hole. Why not focus on them?
Petitions don't work even industry supported sites say that. Again, fansubbers have started their own business, the very first one... AnimEigo. We realized long ago, that once a tape/dvd/vcd is circulated, no matter what instructions on how to handle the tape, there's nothing that fansubbers can do. Again, this has always been with us since the early days and these agruments are the same. However, was different is the alienating the fansub community which is large enough, that it can affect the industry's future.
I also agree you're unrealistic. If you honestly think that companies reps don't lie, or that they're so defenseless and people who work in the industry don't download anime at the same rate as those in the "evil" fansub community, you're sadly mistaken. -Ghost- Last edited by Ghost on Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:38 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Aione][Grai
Posts: 1 Location: Sweden |
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People you are blind the US is not the world there is loads of other countries out there who dosent have anyone that has licensed the serie. But you guys are selfish think you schould be abel to get it in the us when its not licensed there but you dont think its right for other people in the world to get it when its not licensed there. Hypocrits is what you are. Tell me why the US license is to set a stop for none US people to get to se the anime. Just give me some reasons why. |
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Sharp kun
Posts: 22 Location: Scotland |
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As someone not in the US, I wouldn't call it hypocritical. Their not saying stop Swedish, French, or German fansubs, only Englsh ones. If you want it, start your own fansub group. Most groups are based in the US, and so if a title is licensed in the US, they stop. If the group is based in Europe, then it may be different. but a US fansub gorup will stop when a title is licensed there, as they are subbing primarily for the US market. All you have to do is import, you don't even need a credit card. I import all my DVD's, its not that hard. |
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Mr Mania
Posts: 581 Location: UK |
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I promised myself I wouldnt reply to this thread but I just thought I would back Sharp Kun up.What your forgetting Aione is that the fansub code in question is the US fansub code and the fansub groups in question are US fansub groups.As Sharp Kun said start up a swedish fansub group rather than using an American one. Just because your not from America doesnt give you the right to damage the American market.Also the what you dont relise is that the American market is highly influential on the UK and euroupean anime market,by hurting the US market your hurting your own anime market.
On a side note to Sharp Kun,its nice to have another Scot on the boards. |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
Posts: 3792 Location: Montreal |
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Actually this is false. I believe you're referring to trademarks or patents; copyright holders never lose the right to protect their copyright in court, no matter how long they don't enforce it. |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
Posts: 3792 Location: Montreal |
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This thread has gone pretty much the way of the AJ thread: some people don't care about the industry and some people do, and nobody's going to move from their entrenched beliefs. So I'm going to lock it.
If you want to continue discussing an alternate code of ethics, do it in this thread |
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