Forum - View topicANN Article on Anime Junkies
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Laughing Hyena
 Posts: 136 Location: Oxnard in sunny Cailforina |
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This is the biggest pile of nonsense I've ever heard. First, if you become upset over whatever someone has said to you via e-mail: Do not reply firsthand. Instead, take out your anger on something else, find someplace private to vent off your feelings: Then come back with a cool head and understand what that person is trying to tell you. "As for jeez...you never read an e-mail." I've have read lots of e-mail in my life and I 'Hardly' ever get any profanity even from people who spell like you do.
Not going to believe that. Unless AJ does show what e-mail they have been getting, I'm not going to think there has been any flaming from UV and such. Also I advise people to be polite as they can when e-mailing AJ. I got into anime due to what I saw on TV as a little kid, not by fansubs. I only have a few fansubs of obscure anime on VHS people told me about. I will be recording over the KO Beast tape once I buy the KO Beast DVD. But I don't have buttloads of fansubs in my house. If you buy a fansub you are making a commitment to buy the anime when it ever comes out in stores.
Yes, I'm an anime fan. Yes, I'm supporter of fansubbing groups who follow ethical paths and respond politely towards companies. Fansubbers are not supposed to make money. They do it for a hobby. Just like a painting a model, it's a h.o.b.b.y. They do this on spare time without money on their minds. If a Company picks up an anime a fansubbing group worked on: They should be happy of the company, stop whatever they happen to be doing with that said anime, and be responsive to the company so that company will add in things. Most of my anime I bought firsthand from DVDs. And besides are you really going to rewatch a DVD when you have already seen the fansub? Only crazy fans rewatch what they love, most people get bored.
I'm sure you’re talking about me. Also look at who the heck who you’re talking to, you don't know me and you call me an idiot for just having an opinion? Doesn't take much to connect the dots anyways. If you find whatever they happen to be on, UV can tell that place to shut down the website. Just because a host has no ads doesn't mean anything really. Also most good fansubbers probably won't come to AJ's defense. They will know the situation and be shocked that AJ is going to make their lives rough from now on if AJ does not take the site down. Edit: I also rent alot of anime as well and watch CN's Adult Swim. However, without Toonami I probably wouldn't be the OLS freak I am now and I did bought the DVDs after watching it on TV. Also I remember fondly of watcing Unico on Disney; and Voltorn and Robotech on local stations. Last edited by Laughing Hyena on Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:19 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ghost
Posts: 26 |
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Sorry, this is from the editoral article. Actually, without the original creator, Yoshiaki Kawajiri and other creators the shows wouldn’t exist.
True, but I find some of the editorial articles have some inaccuracies. For more info go here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html#13
Well, any traditional oldschool fansubber wouldn't have touched any new shows. Hence the difference between traditional fansubbers and digisubbers. Besides, I don't see publicly disrespecting their work has any relevance. The old tired ethics argument again! Ethics are different per individual. However, there were ethics in the fansub community. Conservative, moderate and liberal. Any respectable fansubber/distributor wouldn't have respond in that fashion. Animejunkies aren't the only ones who distribute licensed titles. There are so many CD-R/VCD distros not to mention mIRC, out there that distribute licensed and available titles. Sure you have those who buy the DVDs' or watch CN's Toonami...  Moreover, sites such as AnimeonDVD, Animenewsservice and this one are dedicated to promoting legitimate anime.
Just as I see the growing factor in legit anime, I also see it in the fansub community. I see in the past decade and things have changed! There isn't a respect for the artist or the oldschool fansubbers that made it possible and especially the NA companies. If there were, the demand for bootlegged digisubs wouldn't be as great. -Ghost- Last edited by Ghost on Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:33 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Julia
Posts: 31 Location: Orange County |
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[quote="chidori"] If it wasn't for AJ allowing us to PREVIEW anime, I would not have bought ANY of the anime I have today, that were subbed by them and probably, neither would most other people. How the heck do you think normal American people decide what anime is good or bad? Read your reviews from this website? Give me a break no freaking way. We need more assurances that the hard earned cash we are spending is being well spent.
Have you heard of renting? Ya, that's what I do. I have never seen a fansub, and I get by just fine. Oh, and the reviews here are good. [quote="chidori"] Mmmm, if you dont read anything else from this post, read this: I just graduated from college, and I will speak for everyone I know there: None of us would know a single thing about anime if it wasn't for awesome groups like AJ. Flaming AJ for their harsh reply is just being a cry baby, flaming AJ for not immediately taking down the first 5 episodes of Ninja Scroll is just being ignorant. 1- other fansubbers have already released eps 6-7 as of this post and will continue to release the entire series, regardless of your complaining. 2 - AJ by releasing eps 1-5 will only help increase the fanbase for ninja scroll, and therefore help the american companies make more money. [/quote/] I'm sorry, but an awesome group would respect a polite request to take down a licensed show. They also would never respond in such a harsh way. Why? When you get a polite request to take down material that is illegal...well...do I really have to answer that? I would say more but , I not good at heated debate's. Plus I would just end up getting myself into trouble. |
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Nightzz
Posts: 1 |
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I wasnt going to get involved in this debate, but know the facts before making a judgement about AJ. AJ was notified and we dropped the project end of story. This site just wants attention. It needed a topic for its discussion. IF the site really were against unethical fansubbers they would go after the groups doing dvd rips that are BETTER than dvd quality releases. Also the ones still doing Ninja scroll. I will not give the names of groups but you guys be the judge. Not a group who has had "NINJA SCROLL DROPPED" in their topic for more than a week. Go to [This URL is a known Fansub Distribution website] And see all the groups still distroing ninja scroll. bah what the hey also check out [EDITED - No links to fansub download sites; AJ's the only exception because of their reply on the front page, IMO. -C]
I see ninja scroll on there yet no one is charging them with destroying the anime industry in america |
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Annie-Mei
 Posts: 8 |
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But continued to offer the first five episodes despite being ASKED to take down the entire series totally. Yeah,... pull the other one. Oh and IM sure it wasn't any of your users through your system that didn't email UV with profanity slewn emails telling them bascially to fudge off.
Yet you guys continued to offer the first five episodes despite being ASKED to drop the series totally. Yeah, pull the other one.
So explain your "official" answer about STILL offering the first five episodes for download despite being ASKED to drop the serires entirely. So please...pull the other one. |
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GLO
Posts: 5 |
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You forgot to mention: Fact: no one from AJ has denied that those profanity filled emails were sent to urban vision Fact: as of this morning AJ's topic contained "Ninja Scroll Dropped, Urban Vision sucks a fat dick" |
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AngelStrike
Posts: 1 Location: California |
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I don't believe Fansubbing is a bad concept, because if it hasn't been for fansubbing I wouldn't have given most the anime out now a second thought about buying. I'm sure that UV are going to make money even if there are fansubbing for Ninja scroll out there already. I'm just an anime fan thats a bit tired of buying anime DVDs that only contain 3 or 4 episodes, when you could fit more than that on a DVD. As for AJ fansubbing an anime already out, it not like it a bad thing. I think it should be fansubbed until the anime actually reaches the North American market. There are some fansubbing groups out there that are subbing anime that have already been out on TV or DVD. Not to name the group, but if your an anime fan you'll probably know who the group is. As for what I'm saying I don't believe what Animejunkies is doing is actually unethical, in my opinion what would be unethical is DVD ripping whats already out and distributing it. If it hasn't been for Animejunkies I wouldn't even have considered watching half the anime I'm watching now.
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cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
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hey atleast AJ stopped subbing it another group still is subbing it.
And i dont think it was AJ as a whole that told UV to f*** ioff small minoitry and theres plenty of other fodder to argue about. We gpt the Whole oldschool vs new school modes of thought about fansubs going on here and its turning into a damn flame war instead of a nice organized debate. and Fansubbing is LEGAL!!! Just not DISTROBUTION!!! Dont like what a groups doing dont get there stuff. If theres not a demand it will go away. Yeah i know that sounds stupid but its true, |
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heero98
Posts: 2 Location: Canada |
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Frankly, i'm not much of an anime watcher, normally. i just download from kazaa, and watch some movies. But, when i found out about animejunkies, i began to watch a bit more, seeing that i had a more wider access to organized material.
i just finished readin the editorial. i think it was full of bs. lol? what's this juicy bit? y don't christopher what's his name put in the REST of the email, instead of giving us the "juicy bit" i'd like to show my support here, because i think animejunkies has helped me gain access to anime that i would have never gotten. i'm from canada(go canada!!! ^^), and if its not for AJ, i would have never gotten n e thing about Last Exile. y don't christopher LEARN to write a less biased editorial. i don't care if he's got a friend in some anime company, i dont care if she's nice. just LEARN to provide the reader with BOTH sides of the story. i'm not from AnimeJunkies, heck, i don't even know or talk to anyone that works in AJ.  latez.
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GATSU
Posts: 15550 |
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Barney: "UV saw a market, understood Non-Japanese can't make anime,"
Um, anime came from non-Japanese influences. "informed Madhouse of the potential money to be made, which Madhouse agreeded and voila born is the souless series of ninja scroll." Considering Ninja Scroll is based on a Japanese legend(Jubei Yagyu), I'm not exactly sure how it'd be considered "souless" to give it more depth. chidori: "Subbing anime for fans is a hobby they love," Yes, but it was going to be subbed eventually anyway. "SECOND, it is ridiculous to flame AJ for not immediately taking down the first five episodes of ninja scroll. If it wasn't for AJ allowing us to PREVIEW anime, I would not have bought ANY of the anime I have today, that were subbed by them and probably, neither would most other people." Yet another AJ whore pretending to be an impartial defender. And as I said before, UV was eventually going to broadcast the series on American tv, so you would've had the chance to preview it then. "How the heck do you think normal American people decide what anime is good or bad?" I read reviews, base my decision to see it on my experience with the author/artist/studio/distributor, and rent or buy it. And ideally, fansubbers were meant to promote shows they believed were exceptional, whether you agreed or not. "You should be very appreciative of all fansubbing groups for their hard work. If it wasn't for fansubbers like AJ ninja scroll wouldn't be able to sell more than 1000 copies in America. " You've got to be kidding me. Ninja Scroll would've sold with or without your help, because of the popularity of the movie! "American companies are leeches, they take advantage of the free advertising done by hardworking fansubbers and then they tell them to stop once the advertising phase is done, and american companies will move in to make all the money." So if you want to make money subbing anime, get a job with one of the companies. "Seriously , look around you, how do you think most people outside asia find out about anime and come to love it enough to buy it on dvd? certainly not from advertising on tv!" Last time I checked, I saw a lot of ads for the Animatrix. And you're telling me Toonami and Adult Swim don't advertise either? "If you pay attention to the the websites of fansubbers, you will notice that UNLIKE THIS website, they have NO annoying flashing ADS and therefore get NO MONEY for people visiting their sites." ANN also actually serves a job for people which justifies them getting paid. "Why do you think American companies charge us $30 retail for 3-5 episodes of anime, while while you can get an entire season of Friends for just $35?" 1) I remember when anime used to cost as much as $40 for 2 episodes. 2) Friends has made all the money it can from advertising. Furthermore the competition from re-runs provides no incentive for most people to buy it. 3)The Japanese pay more than us per dvd. (See FLCL) 4) Bootlegging will not encourage lower prices like Napster and Ipod. "I just graduated from college" And it certainly shows. v1cious: "but how do you expect the show to even gain a global fanbase when they can't even watch it?" And how do you expect people to watch it when there's no incentive to give it a broadcast if people bootleg it? Angelstrike: "I'm just an anime fan thats a bit tired of buying anime DVDs that only contain 3 or 4 episodes, when you could fit more than that on a DVD." Try buying 2 episodes of the Avengers or the 3 of Prisoner. At $45 per dvd, that's a lot of money, even if the episodes are an hour each. But given the relative obscurity of those shows on home video and the limited fanbase, that's what they gotta charge. Nonetheless, being able to see them at all more than makes up for it. |
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Blackfel
Posts: 4 Location: Oklahoma City, OK |
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I don’t know about the rest of you, but I appreciate the work that ALL fansubbers do for a very simple reason: when I find a series that I like, I want to see it NOW…NOT a year or two after it has been released in Japan. Say what you will about AnimeJunkies…they put out a good product in a timely manner, something that very few (if any!) professional outfits can claim. They do it for a simple reason: they love anime. Need proof? I just downloaded Gundam Seed 33 from their site. Their nearest “competitor” (AnimeOne) just completed episode 24. How many episodes has Bandai officially released here in America? Zero. When will they get around to officially releasing it here? Who knows? Maybe after the demand for it reaches a certain point as evidenced by the number of people that download it? Or will it be when they can be bothered to? Either way, I can’t be bothered to wait for them to get around to it. I want it NOW.
If the American company that optioned Ninja Scroll had been smart, they would have started releasing DVDs immediately, instead of waiting for a “grand unveiling” at Anime Expo. One of the most important tenets of Capitalism is that speed is of the essence: you have to put out your product as quickly as possible, before someone beats you to it. They failed to do this, and predictably someone beat them to it. Next time, be faster, and save the drama for the soaps. You’ll make more money that way. And while I’m at it, I find it suspect that Urban Vision waited until AnimeJunkies completed five episodes before they took official notice. Could it be a calculated attempt on the part of Urban Vision to generate some buzz for their product right before Anime Expo? If so, that would be the smartest thing they have done: I know that I want to see more, and I’m willing to pay for the DVDs to see them. Would I have been as eager if I hadn’t seen the first five episodes? Not likely. After all, how many times have we seen a series based off of a successful movie fall flat? I’ve seen enough to make me extremely gunshy. As for the argument between AnimeJunkies and Urban Vision: unless and until I see ALL of the messages that were sent by BOTH parties in their entirety, I will reserve judgment--as should everyone else. We don’t know what was actually said, what the intention was, or what the context was. Since there are so many would-be lawyers here, what you are convicting AJ with is called “Hearsay Evidence” and as such should be disregarded. Granted, from the little that we have been allowed to see, AnimeJunkies arguably stepped over the line. However, some of the most insulting and degrading letters and e-mails I have seen didn’t contain a single word of profanity. Blackfel |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Sound recordings? (1) Countries can establish laws protecting sound recordings, but cannot create laws affecting sound recordings in other countries. It also says that you can dub over a sound recording, provided the author permits you to do so (that it is licensed) (2) If you live in a country that has signed the earlier agreements, but not yet this one (the Berne Convention), you have 2 years to reproduce the work without permission of tha author. (NOTE: That does not necessarily imply distribution -- they are two separate things.) (3) If you import a sound recording without permission from the author (ie, a legitimate sale), into a country where such a sale would be illegal, then it's considered infringing. ... I don't see how that upsets what I'd written?
Indeed, I completely agree with you there. There's a loss of respect for both the fansubber and the industry. Today, it's all about "I want it now".. at least amongst most of the downloaders. That's not to say that it wasn't like that in the past.. but never before has it been so clearly laid out. |
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Ramen
 Posts: 346 Location: San Jose |
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A true anime fan supports anime and the anime industy. Fansubs to not support the anime industry. Case closed. That "free advertisement" argument went out of style in the '90s.
With the growing popularity of anime in american pop culture, funsubs are becoming more and more obsolete. Sure, there are people who had their first experience with fansubs. However, now we have things like Newtype, Shonen Jump, the Anime Chanel, and Cartoon network (just to name a few) that serve to expose the public to the anime. This type of exposure is only going to increase, making it even more pointless for fansubs to 'advertise' to the fan community. I highly, highly doubt that the majority of anime fans today got their start with fansubs. You can't deny that fansubs had an integral role in the early days of anime in the US. But, hat role is clearly diminishing. People who support fansubs nowadays are just interested in geting the latest and greatest as soon as they can. Those who think they are helping the anime industry, or are 'doing them a favor' are just in denial. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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If you hadn't downloaded the series, but instead went out and purchased a DVD off the shelf that you had never seen, and became interested... isn't that effectively the same thing? There are plenty of titles out there; why not pick one up at random?
I thought I read that Gundam Seed was entering dubbing, and is probably going to be shown on TV. Its release depends strongly on when it can get TV time. There might be 10,000 people who want it now, but there are 2 million people who want it on TV. Naturally, they'll dub it and put it on TV. In fact, it doesn't even matter if dubbing's started or not -- Bandai already said that fansubbers should not subtitle anything Gundam. Why they haven't acted on Seed subbers or GitS TV subbers is perhaps the same reason why UV didn't act on Ninja Scroll -- because no one reported it to them.
Game companies wait until trade shows to announce big products. Why can't UV do the same?
From what I know of this event, I believe UV had been informed in late May (probably the 25th or later) of AJ's existance. Prior to that, they had no idea that it was being distributed.. that would've probably meant episode 4 had just been released. Add a few days for the e-mail to get read and a decision to act made, and then a few more days before we were informed of the conflict.. and then it took a few more days to make sure that what we posted was as accurate as we could make it. Things work fast on the internet, but there are still delays for editing articles, making sure that what was said was actually said, etc. Not all companies actively look for pirates, but instead rely on others to report it to them. I believe that's what happened in this case.. it just took someone a month to notice. Given that, I don't think this was a "calculated attempt" by UV to do anything. Additionally, given the successful movie, I think that ALONE would provide far more advertising for the TV series than the fansubbers AND this happening combined would bring. And if there were clips in the Animatrix DVD, then that's probably also more promotion than what's going on now. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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I think the issue that Anime Junkies and everybody else is dancing around is the simple fact that THE NINJA SCROLL TV SERIES SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FANSUBBED IN THE FIRST PLACE, NOT AT ALL, EVER, NUH-UH, NOPE, NEVER.
The TV series was, and I stress, co-financed by Urban Vision. Do any of you fansub lackeys know what co-financed means? It means that Urban Vision had a DIRECT INVOLVEMENT WITH THE CREATION OF THE NINJA SCROLL TV SERIES. It's theirs. It's always been theirs. AJ had literally no right to slap some subtitles and a watermark on it and pass it off as their own. I think this incident is yet another example of how disconnected these fansub kids are from the realities of the anime industry. And with US and Japanese co-productions only increasing, I fear that incidents like this will only increase... |
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