Forum - View topicThe Fansub Facts
|
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next |
| Author | Message | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
kenshinsgeisha
Posts: 5 Location: On a mission |
|
||
|
Please note that everything in the following message is fact. This is it, cut and dried. The truth of the impact of fansub distribution on anime. And it's not pretty.
The fact is, fansubs are killing the anime industry. Not just in the U.S., but around the world. Why? Here's a brief explanation of how anime is created. I'll start with a question: how much do you think it costs to create 5 minutes of an anime in Japan? $1,000? $5,000? 10,000? Nope. The average is $250,000. For five minutes of anime. Do the math, and figure out how much one 30 minute show costs to create. Then figure that your average anime series runs 26 episodes...you get the picture. Many Japanese studios shop their product to U.S. companies (Pioneer, Geneon, etc.) before it's even completed in order to get funding to create/complete the show. This gives the American company that provides this funding a good shot at licensing the show for U.S. distribution down the road. Purchasing the legitimate (not bootlegged) product in the U.S. keeps these companies in business, and able to continue funding new anime in Japan. You begin to see how this works... Now, many people are under the impression that it is legal to purchase/distribute/download fansubbed anime in the U.S. before the show has been licensed here. This is untrue. The anime is still protected by Japanese copyright, and thus such purchasing/distribution/downloading is a violation of INTERNATIONAL law. NO ONE involved with the creation of the anime gets any money from fansubs. And without money to fund creation/completion of an anime. An American voice actor whom I look up to and admire for not only his talent but also his stand on fansubbing put it best. He compared fansubs to someone giving you a house. Have fun, party on, but when the house burns down, don't start whining that you have no place to stay. If/when fansubs become our predominant means of acquiring anime, the fact is that anime can and very likely will disappear altogether. It's the truth. Don't get me wrong, I was an ignorant fansub watcher once, too. But when I learned just what fansubs are doing to the industry, I stopped immediately. My personal penance was to go out and purchase legitimate DVDs of every show that I had watched on fansub. And now I'm trying to spread the word. Stop watching fansubs if you want to keep watching anime. |
|||
|
|||
|
sickthing
Posts: 6 Location: UK |
|
||
|
Yes, that is pretty bad. I did download one anime TV series but I plan to buy the DVDs since I liked it so much. But there is another problem.
Since I live in UK I will have to wait until September to see a possible release of Ghost In The Shell 2 in cinemas, I will then have to wait until Febuary 2006 for a DVD release. If its gonna take this long then the industry should expect a rise in anime downloads. Unfortuntly most GITS 2 releases are DVD Rips and I don't have a DVD burner, go VCD 
|
|||
|
|||
kusanagi-sama
 Posts: 1723 Location: Wichita Falls, TX |
|
||
|
I too will buy whatever anime I downloaded as a fansub once its licensed. I have seen about 144 anime, (59 aren't licesed yet - I'd buy about 45 of these if they were licensed), so I have seen about 85 licensed series, and of that 13 anime series/OVA's I don't have any plans on buying as of yet.
I have a piece of software that catalogues your DVDs from Intervocative Software ( http://www.intervocative.com/ ) called DVD profiler. My current anime wishlist is about $16,000 SRP (If I count the future releases, this might exceed $25,000). I usually buy $1000-1500 a year, so this could take a while to buy all I want. Here's my list here: http://www.intervocative.com/dvdcollection.aspx/kusanagi-sama |
|||
|
|||
msi435
 Posts: 465 Location: Behind you! |
|
||
|
The sad part is, this constant "minus" in the profit of the anime industry will never go away; as a matter of fact, it will only grow.
Only If American anime DVDs were cheaper... |
|||
|
|||
Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
|
||
|
I've never downloaded an anime I didn't eventually buy. That said I've very rarely downloaded any anime as well as I'm of the persuasion that it is borderline stealing. I know alot of people are hard on bootlegs, and rightfully so, but downloading is nearly the same thing.
|
|||
|
|||
|
.Sy
Posts: 1266 |
|
||
|
Well wadaya know, I was just going to start a thread asking for some clarification on the legality of fansubs. Someone I know BS'ed something to me about Japanese companies paying fansubbers to do their stuff. He added something about it being good advertisement. While fansubs may increase fandom for a show, it doesn't do a whole lot for busininess. This, BTW, comes from someone who thinks Japanese imports (a.k.a, his bootlegs) are cheaper than domestic releases. I wonder how I should tell him the facts.
 He nearly had me going in the wrong direction, when he invited me to import anime with him from a guy from Singapore on Ebay . A few random events happened so we couldn't, but it seems that was for the best. (Honest, I didn't know much about anime a few months ago.) People these days are so...easily manipulated by whatever those fansubbers say. I've been on a website where they said if you donated you'd be eligible to win a $500 gift card. Now, if they recieve close to $500 a month, why would they use it to buy a gift card for you?
|
|||
|
|||
angel_lover
 Posts: 645 Location: UK |
|
||
Oh no it isn't. The laws of copyright are generally framed around the concept of the financial loss incurred through unauthorised copying. If I download a fansub and then buy the anime once it is released in my country then there is no financial loss to anyone. If I download a fansub and don't buy the anime once it is released then I've caused the local licensor a financial loss and therefore I've committed theft and I deserve to be punished. But if I buy a bootleg, I've not only stolen from my local licensor, I've also supported organised crime and probably helped fund all sorts of undesirable activities. Fansubs are not the enemy, bootlegs are. I've complained to Amazon till I was blue in the face about all the bootleg anime listed in their marketplace, but guess what? Nothing happened. |
|||
|
|||
DKL
 Posts: 1960 Location: California, USA |
|
||
actually, this has been one of my missions since I got to the states back in the PHILIPPINES, getting a hold of legit anime was... to say, very difficult I was even fooled into buying like 300$ worth of bootlegs anyway, I've been collecting a lot, and I've managed to cover most of the stuff that I've liked ever since seeing it back in the Philippines the stuff I liked on TV, the stuff I've seen on fansubs, bootlegs, etc. for the most part, I've covered a lot of it but because of this, I rarely invest in newer releases ANYWAY, where I stand on the issue is... I don't watch or download any fansubs *especially now in a country where they can be purchased*, I religiously follow shows I like on TV and I buy the DVDs but if other people like to download fansubs, that's okay, to some extent, it does help hype a show *KODOCHA* but of course, logically, there is a loss whether you like it or not, what about the people who don't intend to get the DVDs? it could be for a lot of reasons... didn't like the show, too many DVDs, too expensive the first reason, not liking the show, would be better justified had they seen it on TV... but whatever, I don't get this in it's "totality" so maybe I'm just an idiot ANYWAY, what does bother me is the ATTITUDE towards legit releases some times, people mouth off to the point where they claim that FANSUBS or BOOTLEGS have better quality, even though they aren't really proffessionals while, I'm not sure about TOEI's releases here in the states, for the most part, everyone *from GENEON to ADV to whoever* handles the DVDs seriously and competently anyway, should you not like the R1 releases, for the most part, the R2 releases are pretty acessible, why don't you just buy those then? *and then like, have a script or something, whatever* at least that way, someone gets money but I digress... maybe it's because I came from a poor country and I learn to appreciate things better *which... to be honest, not a lot of people do here... which is kinda disappointing* this may be BLINDING from some kind of truth... but whatever, back in the PHILIPPINES, we had a ton of anime on TV and CABLE, it really pissed me off how everyone complains and gets all high and mighty even when they don't even buy legit releases it's to a lesser extent here... but I still think people need to suck it up well, that's my 2 centavos *har har har* |
|||
|
|||
Arkard
 Posts: 677 Location: Poland |
|
||
|
OK, here are my 2 cents.
I agree with the majority of you when you say the fansub industry is indeed doing damage to the American Market. Even if there are people like you, who Do buy original DVDs, there will always be people who will want to save a couple of bucks by downloading any anime into their HD and basically flip the producers off and laugh in their face. This is all true. But for a second, think before you start spouting nonsense about it affecting the "whole world". Don`t get me wrong here, but you Americans have the easy life when it comes to anime. You get a wide variety of so many titles, many of which are not only those "sure-sellers" but also trully masterpiece series, movies with high quality story and art. And all of this for, let me say it, laughable sums of money. I mean: 100$ for a box-set? The price of an Anime DVD in America is REALLY LOW compared to your average pay. Yes, compared to the average pay. That is the reason your prices are not attractive to many european nations. Take Poland for example. 1$=3zl (zl = polish currency). That means, whatever price you mention, it will always seem 3 times as high to me. On the other hand, the prices on the polish market are much better suited for the average pay here, but may appear very small to you (what about paying 5$ for a volume of GTO, or 4$ for Video Girl Ai? See they appear small to you, but to us they seem higher). Where was I? Oh yes, Americans are on easy street. But did you stop to think what about other countires? Fansubbers worldwide are taking effort to produce high-quality fansubss not only for the american market but more largely - for the european one. We, in Poland, dont get alot of anime DVDs here. There is this new german company, but it has prices which way exceed the possibilities of an average person. Dont get me wrong, this is not an "i am too poor to afford dvd" complain, but can YOU imagine paying 80$ for a 3 episode disk? CAN YOU? Because this is how (when compared the average pay of an American and a Polish person) it feels to us here. Still, even with the new company, the anime selection is Very low. The only DVD available now is "3x3", "GTO" and "Gunslinger Girl" that is ALL. We used to have Ninja Scroll and Perfect Blue (imagine paying 100$ for each) but they are long gone. Now - I did read a rather interesting rant about how fansubbs are illegal etc, about so many conventions, the international copyright law and Japans New Copyright system. And I came to the conclusion. America apart, english fansubbs in non-english speaking countries, where the anime is not licensed, are about as illegal as jail-walking in the middle of the Sahara desert when you are absolutely sure (by GPS) that there is not a soul in miles. So yeah, I will continue to download fansubbs. Because I dont have another choice. SOME of you may say that anime is not my right, it is a sort of luxury. OK, fair enough. But answer me this. I live in a country where there is a snowballs chance in hell I will get a decend anime on DVD for a fair price. What is the difference, if download the anime and not pay the author, or Dont but the anime (as I have NO CHANCE of doing it - apart from 3 titles) and not pay the author? The difference is: in the case of the first scenario I will get to know the anime. I will possibly become a fan of it, order some figures from the anime, maybe even get enough money to order it from America (which is VERY difficult as Poland doesn`t have PayPal) and it will give a potential chance for the author to earn his money. This is what I came to think after long and careful analisis of the problem. You may disagree, but remember: fansubbs dont go only on the american market. Seeing as they are semi-ilelgal outside of American and England and do potential good to the under-developed anime market in some countries, it is unfair to simply deem them "bad". Think about it. Arkard out. |
|||
|
|||
Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10455 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
||
You're right. BUT, and I'm going to argue the opposite side of the coin I usually argue, distributors have found a very unfortunate truth. Excessive fansub distribution is hurting the industry. Total lack of fansub interest in some titles also diminishes sales. There are two facts that have contradictory affects on sales, the first, is that free fansubs are bad for sales, the second, is that free fansubs are good for exposure and "buzz." Even if distribution stops completely at the drop of a licensing announcement, too many people see the fansubs. The optimal situation, would be to roll back the clock about 5 years, to a point where fansubs exist, but aren't widely available online in high quality. Unfortunately that's not possible. What sucks, is that I can't suggest a good, feasible solution. And I've never heard any one suggest one. 
-t PS: I'm not locking this thread till it enter's the "stuborn phase" where both camps are repeating the same old arguements and not really listening to each other. |
|||
|
|||
|
smutchi
Posts: 189 |
|
||
I kind of agree with what you're saying because there really isn't as much anime in Europe as in America. Especially on TV. However that doesn't give anyone the right to do something illegal (I'm not judging, I'm just saying)... At the same time I have to say that you're exaggerating about the "paypal" thing: I've ordered so much stuff from America (f.e. amazon) and it's absolutely peanuts! All you need is a credit card! IMHO fansubs also have positive aspects. As Arkard said, some people just don't have enough money to buy that much anime. I think if you're short on money you only buy anime if you're absolutely sure you like it, or otherwise you don't buy it. If someone's really in this situation, then downloading fansubs might even support the industry (because then you're sure you like it and maybe decide to buy it). I don't know if it's clear what I mean...
Also, I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of people who wouldn't buy anime anyway. Meaning, if there weren't any fansubs anymore they would maybe download other stuff ( "normal" movies) or watch TV or whatever, but they wouldn't go to a store and actually buy it!!! EDIT: After having read my post I think it looks like I'm totally in favour of fansubs. I am not! I agree with tempest and others who have posted before: There are a lot of negative aspects, too! Last edited by smutchi on Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|||
|
|||
|
Arkard
Posts: 677 Location: Poland |
|
||
|
smutchi: I think you misudnerstood. The lack of money is never and excuse to actually "steal" but notice that I dont consider fansubbs stealing, still the price itself is not my concern, its the exchange rate. I am not trying to make Poland look like some puny underdeveloped country. The truth is, the quality of life doesnt really differ so much from the West, but STILL, the average pay in America (after the exchange rate) is much higher, so American prices are unfitted for the polish pocket. That is the truth.
|
|||
|
|||
|
jhelms89
Posts: 4 |
|
||
|
I have never seen fansubs as a money issue. I do not download them to get cheap anime. The thing about fansubs that the american companies are not getting is that we do not want anything cut or changed and stop taking years to get stuff to america.
|
|||
|
|||
|
DKL
Posts: 1960 Location: California, USA |
|
||
then I guess you don't understand how complicated licensing is |
|||
|
|||
|
Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
|
||
|
The only way to kill fansubs is to compete with them. When anime companies can distribute accurate subbed versions of their anime on the same schedule as fansubbers do (roughly within a week of Japanese airing), at a reasonable price (roughly $2-3 per episode), with dubbed versions following a month or two later at a price to account for their higher production costs, then I think fansubbing would drop considerably, particularly if they could match fansubbed anime's convenience in the form of "itunes"-esc downloadable episodes, instead of having to drop by the store to pick up the latest releases.
Once the official distribution is better than the fansubbers, then the fansubs will have very little advantage over them aside from price, and most people will move away from them. For the moment, however, fansubs are generally of equal or higher than official quality (if you scout and deal with good groups), and they often release months or even years before the US companies get around to it. And of course the price per episode is considerably higher than the mainstream market is willing to support, marginallizing the industry to a fringe. This clearly doesn't have to be the case. The Japanese companies have access to the scripts for the episodes months before the fansubbers do, and the raws at least a week or two before the fansubbers do, they can easilly have the product translated and ready for release before the fansubbers can, it's only politics that keeps them from being competitive. |
|||
|
|||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group