Forum - View topicNEWS: Politically-charged Manga Suspended in Japan
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Joe Arizona
 Posts: 144 Location: Phoenix |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Japanese may have intended to give us a heads-up for Pearl Harbor, Guam, and the Philippines, but I would hardly call being handed a piece of paper and then being socked in the teeth sporting.
On the dropping of the Atomic bombs, I will say this, that the men who made the decision to use the weapons had these these facts staring at them: that the Japanese garrisons in the Marianas, Tarawa, Palau, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa fought to near annihilation. On the island I moved from, Saipan, Japanese civilians and military personnel preferred leaping to death off cliffs, rather than surrender. It is not out of the realm of imagination, and I mean 1945 war-weary imagination, to guess what the fighting on Japan proper would have been like. Japan had thousands of planes in reserve on the home islands for use as kamikazes on the anticipated allied invasion.We all know the toll kamikazes exacted on the US Navy in Okinawa. Civilians were distributed personal explosive devices. That Russia intended to settle the old score of the Russo-Japanese War, and therefore needed something to temper their designs in Asia was also a valid concern. It was bad enough that the Soviets seized the rest of Sakhalin and the Ryuku Islands, even in the face of use of the bombs. Truman was astutely looking into the future, beyond the smoldering rubble that Japan was. Checking Soviet aggrandizement may have prevented a North and South Japan. I hope we can all agree that, warts and all, a US occupation of Japan, as well as US underwriting of Asian stability was preferable to what the Soviets had in store. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wow. EVERYONE is wrong on quite a number of historical points, and a lot of the arguments are based on faulty knowledge.. some of the generalizations thrown around here are pretty bad, but at GameFAQs, it's a train wreck. I shouldn't say negative things about other sites here, but frankly, the discussion about Kuni ga Moeru and Nanking is _wrong_ at best. I need to remind everyone, again, that this is not about Chinese workers on railroads, American Atrocities in Vietnam, Japanese WW2 technology, etc.. This is specifically limited to _Japans occupation of Nanking, and the events that occurred because of it_, and _Kuni ga Moeru and the right-wing group's decision to protest it_, as well as _Shueisha's compliance with their demands_. Nonetheless, in an attempt to close some of the open historical-political questions: I've only seen excerpts from two Japanese HS textbooks, in a college course about Japanese history (one from the 80s, one from the 90s). Both of the textbooks mentioned Nanking about as much as my American HS history textbooks mention the American atrocities in Vietnam. In effect: "Yes, they happened. But it was an unpleasant situation, and other things happened there too, so let's look elsewhere." A paragraph or two on the subject, with just as much (or as little) detail as you'd find anywhere else. 2 textbooks is not a representative sample, but I'm inclined to believe that they were fairly typical, as far as Japanese textbooks go. As evidenced by the massive amount of academic literature in English, Japanese and Chinese on Nanking, no High School textbook could ever do proper justice to describe what happened. The events and issues get boiled down to numbers and statistics. Furthermore, focusing TOO MUCH on Nanking defeats the greater issue of "Why did Japan engage in imperialism during the 1920s and 1930s?" With respect to a basic HS-level history course, there IS NO REASON to dwell on any specific subject. If a book dwelled on subjects to the degree that they could be properly analyzed, the typical HS textbook would be 5000 pages, not 500. College is where people begin dissecting the events and trying to find underlying issues and causes. Anyway, _let's try to stay on topic, please?_ |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Haiseikoh 1973
 Posts: 1590 Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Since Cookie said to cut out further OT debate, I have to follow the rules. Then again, I suggest you look into my remark. You never know how far such infomation (or lack thereof) changed history. Last edited by Haiseikoh 1973 on Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
GATSU
Posts: 15693 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
fractured:
Sorry.
Well not legal slavery, anyway.
I'm just making it a point that you're as much a victim. abunai:
So did I, but arrogance from success will do that to ya.
Sorry. What I meant to say was that both Germany and the U.S.S.R. drained their forces against each other.
It doesn't matter whether they knew they were losing, as long as they had other people to die in their place.
Well it was pretty much that way since the jidai geki...Although nowadays, there's a better chance for individual opinions to be heard there. Well, unless those individuals publish material which people don't like, because the material's based on real life despicable events...
Not necessarily, but in the end, Germany brought Dresden on itself. If those civilians weren't accidentally firebombed, they would've been killed some other way, because they continued to be a part of a self-destructive war machine. The Holocaust, The Blitz and Pearl Harbor could've possibly been prevented, but I wouldn't say the victims "deserved" it.
So was Kristallnacht. What's your point?
If I was forced to choose between being the target of "racial purification" or "re-education", I'd rather choose "re-education", because at least I'd die sooner.
Not really. Actually, it says more about you than me. You're essentially willing to justify the wrongs committed against the Axis over the wrongs committed by the Axis. And if you add up the totals, the Allies still killed a lot less innocent people than the Axis. No one's perfect, and all life is valuable, but sometimes you have to go for the lesser of the two evils. Cookie:
Japanese teachers could always require that their students read supplementary material that would help them understand Nanking better. They could discuss certain aspects in depth. That sometimes happens in American high schools...
Not entirely. Nanking was part of Japan's effort to compete with the rest of the world.
Given the occasional xenophobic tendencies of the Japanese, and the fact that race relations between the Japanese and Chinese and Koreans still have a way to go, I disagree. As I said before, the fact that the current generation of Japanese kids seems to be getting along better-perhaps because they're part of a global community-is really just plain luck, and not because of any actual effort on their parents and grandparents. Hell, maybe they need to build a Museum of Tolerance over there. I don't know. But I do know that the last time a certain European country chose to deny its past aggressions, it invaded another time. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
enjin2000
 Posts: 1484 Location: Japan |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You know Ohka? Great. It appears in the episode of _Sonic Boom Squadron_ in The Cockpit OAV based on L. Matsumoto's war manga. It was impressive, although I don't like it so much. anime#773 BTW, dormcat, I admit and am impressed with your vast knowledge of modern Japanese history, but I think you are wrong a bit about Tokyo Trial. It is histrically true that the White House decided not to judge Emperor Hirohito at Tokyo Trial, but it was mainly not to avoid arising communists. Both Truman and MacCarther feared that it would become more difficult to occupy Japan when they had Hirohito stand at the trial. Indeed, it was effective; it was successful in having the majority of the then Japanese believed, or tried to believe, that it was up to some military bigshots that the war occurred, not themselves. That's why they symphsized with Hirohito as the symbol of the victim of the militarism. During the era of him, it was taboo to discuss the responsiblity of the emperor in Japan. (As you know, the then mayor of Nagasaki was almost assasnated by a ultra-right wing man because he mentioned the emperor's war responsibility.) However, after he passed away in '89, it became non-taboo to talk about the issue. In '90, an interesting document was found in the house of a diplomat very close to Hirohito. A Japanese professor (who's just the scholar to claim that the number of casualities in Nanking Incident was questionable while it *did* occur) reasoned that it would imply the existence of the secret agreement between the palace and GHQ. At present it is accepted both in the U.S. and Japanese academy. Truman used Hirohito as the ultimate tool to occupy Japan, rather than againt communists. It was the decision based on the reality, but personally I think he should have abdicate the throne when the U.S. occupation army left Japan. A few years ago, the late emperor's draft to apology to the Japanese people for the war was found and shown in a monthly magazine. Few showed interest because it's too late. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
enjin2000
Posts: 1484 Location: Japan |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ranmah, the Japanese government already admits them all and that's why it was successful in making treaties with the Asian coutries. And, let me emphasize here once more; Rape of Nanking is only the title of Chan's book, not the histrically formal name. And it is wrong to think her book was all right. It was sensational, but questionable academically.
It seems that there is some misunderstanding about Korea. First off, it was *them* who offerred their country to Japan. If the then Japanese government had rejected, they would have offerred to some other countries. If the Grand Empire of Britain had acquired Korea, English would have been the official language as in India and HongKong. Why do Korean hate Japan? Frankly, I think there is inferiority complex among them (it was impressive that when I pointed out it to a Korean, he tried to deny my view without disguising his feelings) . They know Korean could not be modernized if Japan had not 'colonized' Korea. I am not telling a lie. Some American and *Korean* scholars also wrote so.
I'm not sure whether you really understand what 'apology' means in the international world of power politics. It implies reparation. You seem not to know how much we have paid for Asian countries. After WW2 both Chiang Kai Shek and Mao Tse Tung announced China would not claim for damages. We still appreciate China's magnanimity. However, in fact we are still paying huge money to China as ODA. http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/oda/index.html I do not want to believe that the Chinese government does not teach its people that. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That's convenient, isn't it? But I won't excuse you. I expect you to apologise.
If you can present that remark intelligibly, I'll be glad to address it - after you've apologised.
For once, a true remark. By 1945, it is true, the USSR was stretched very thin indeed. However, let's not overlook the fact that the Soviet Union was a huge state - and the forces in the East had been maintained in a state of intermediate readiness, against an attack. In other words, they were rearguard/reserves, and not war-weary frontline soldiers from the European war.
You seem to be of the opinion that a military chain of command will stand up to any stress. It doesn't work that way. When one side is losing a war, the troops will remain loyal (under ideal circumstances) up to a point, but after that point is reached, their fighting ability will deteriorate, the desertion rate will increase, and the entire military hierarchy will begin to crumble. For all their supposed culture of unquestioning loyalty, the Japanese were no different in this regard.
Nobody deserves terrorism. You seem to be operating from the philosophy that it's all right to terrorise an enemy, if he's terrorised you first. That's moral relativism, and it's a slippery slope.
 Eheh... you just made it for me:
"Bombing of Dresden" is to "the Allies" as "Kristallnacht" is to "the Nazis". Thank you. 
Murder is murder. Call it what you want, I'd much prefer to be neither a murderer nor murdered.
On the contrary, I am not defending the Axis at all. What I am saying is that an atrocity is an atrocity - no matter who is doing it. It is no excuse to say "they did it first".
Hmm. A good point. It does sort of sidestep the more complex issues underlying Word War 1, but let's not complicate matters. You are right, a large part of the "cause" of World War 2 was the fact that Hitler succeeded in selling the German people a comforting myth, that they had been the victims of the Great War, rather than one of the responsible parties. - abunai |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
fractured78
Posts: 13 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm a victim because three generations ago my great grandfather was the target of racism and horrible laws? Wow, by your definition 90% of the world is a victim. Every woman is a victim because their female ancestors were discriminated against. Everyone in Hong Kong is a victim of the British. etc. What an absolutely useless way to view the world. You could make a chain of being "victims" from here to the dawn of humankind so no one has to take responsibility for their own actions. As cookie said (I actually said it first), this is not on topic, so I will discuss it no further. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Haiseikoh 1973
Posts: 1590 Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Perhaps if you quit asking for an Apology, you actually understand what Cookie unexpectedly did. And how it relates to the topic at hand. Sometimes answers need a little research. But i'm not gonna give it to you that easily. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
GATSU
Posts: 15693 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
abunai:
And you seem to be operating from an argument that it's ok to allow someone to terrorize you and others just to avoid hurting them. You know, Gandhi thought the Jews should submit to the Nazis for the sake of proving them "wrong". While it's possible to do that, it still accomplishes nothing if the purpose of the aggressor is to intimidate or demean you.
Not really, since Kristallnacht was personal.
So would I, but the Germans had 20 years to do both, and unfortunately, their deaths would've been inevitable some way or another, by continuing to support that type of a regime. That's the downside of imperialism.
It may not be an excuse, but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
The "complex issue" of World War I was that all the European powers were competing against each other for resources and power and the resulting tension meant war was on the horizon. Germany just chose to lead the way. fractured: Well you're a victim if you somehow suffer from the after-effects of the wrongs committed to your ancestors. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
True enough, as far as it goes. But there is still a serious moral difference between fighting against an oppressor and bombing a civilian population.
Now, that's a truly chilling remark to make. Could you please explain the difference between "personal" and "impersonal" in this context, and elaborate on why you think it makes any moral difference in the case of mass murder?
I see, we're back to your argument that the civilian population of Dresden "deserved" to be bombed?
Hmm. I wonder how many atrocities have been "justified" with those precise words? All of this "sometimes atrocities are justified" talk of yours is a thoroughly despicable position to adopt, and it echoes one of the great tragedies of American history. Let me just toss off a quotation, here:
Did the Cheyenne civilians "have it coming to them"?
BUZZ! "Sorry, that's wrong. The answer we were looking for was: Austria-Hungary." - abunai |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
enjin2000
Posts: 1484 Location: Japan |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
His... And, I think it is more adequate here to mention that you failed to refute me, don't you? At least, so long as using the term of Rape of Nanking as if the officially historical name, you cannot be avoid being accused as being biased. In addition, I'd like to know what you mean by 'take responsibility.' If it means that we abandon studying the history academically, you are not different from some Japanese ultra-rightwings even if you deny that. Even in the West fewer scholars do not believe the figure of 300,000 or 400,000 victims. Last edited by enjin2000 on Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
enjin2000
Posts: 1484 Location: Japan |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't agree with you partly because I belong to people who admit Nanking Incident, and largely because I think it is OK to suspect some *proof* may be fablication or questionable so long as that comes from the viewpoint of academic research. I think if they had not done action, some scholars would do it instead of them. The assemblies seem to be the people who deny that Nanking did occur. However, there is no denying that Motomiya was rash --- like some participants in the forum who believe and claim that in Japan nothing is taught. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'll second that opinion - anything that generates controversy like that manga has, tends to become collectible. - abunai |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group