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DuchessBianca
Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 562
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:47 pm
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Ringking wrote: | And now, I'm waiting for payday. |
Just incase you didn't know kickstarter doesn't charge upfront if paying by credit card. I'm unsure about if paypal requires upfront payment but figured in case you didn't know about the former I'd mention it
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Fatt_One
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Ohio USA
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:36 am
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I fully intent to fund this.
I enjoyed the few chapters of this story I had read and was really disappointing it's release was canceled.
the way people reacted to this series planned release was disgusting, if you don't like it then don't buy it but please don't ruin it for others. :/
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Utsuro no Hako
Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 1052
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:41 am
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Melicans wrote: | I may be mistaken (and I'd like a lawyer's take on this), but I think whether the material breaks any laws would depend very much on the definition of child pornography (or whatever other laws people may consider relevant) in the particular locale that it is sent to or the physical products processed in. There is a reason that when localizers such as MangaGamer license adult VNs, their releases are always preceeded with a screen that states all of the characters are over the age of 18 (even when that is clearly not the case given how many of them are set in schools or feature high school students). |
Short answer: Under US law, it's legal.
Long answer: A couple decades ago, Congress passed a law that forbade any simulated child pornography, including CG and hand drawn artwork. The Supreme Court eventually ruled that the law was so overly broad that it could affect legitimate works of art like the movies Kids and American Beauty, and since such simulated works weren't produced by harming minors the way real child pornography is, the government couldn't outright ban them. The court did allow that such works could be banned if the ban applied the Miller Test for obscenity. Congress immediately turned around and rewrote the law to comply with Miller.
Now, in the Miller Test, the government must prove three things to show that a work is too obscene for Constitutional protection.
First, the work must appeal to the prurient interests of the audience. KnJ certainly qualifies.
Second, the work must depict sexual activity in a patently offensive way. This is hard to prove, but I think you can find a judge or jury who'd feel that way about KnJ.
And finally, the work must lack serious literary, artistic or political value. As awful as KnJ is, it passes this hurdle. It has a plot and social message, no matter how reprehensible we may find it.
That doesn't mean the government couldn't try to go after them; it just means that if they have enough money for lawyers (or can interest somebody from the ACLU or EFF), they'd prevail.
The real problem they face (and the reason SevenSeas dropped this like a hot potato) is pushback from their business partners. Distributors aren't going to touch this. Bookstores aren't going to touch this. But with Digital Manga's "Who needs customers as long as we can find fools willing to donate to our Kickstarters?" policy, even that might not be a problem as long as KS is fine with a project like this.
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Thread_Alchemist
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 51
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:26 am
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I have never read the comic so I guess I can't comment on the content. However I do think that offering the body pillows was a bad decision. Just from a perception stand point. You spend a lot of time explaining why people shouldn't call the comic child porn because the intent is not to titillate but then ruin that by offering something to titillate the buyer.
I think that they probably should have coughed up some more money and had the creator draw up a few more originals. Her art seems lovely and it would have helped to reinforce the paragraphs above about the comics plot. Personally I won't be contributing.
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Catsplay
Joined: 24 Sep 2015
Posts: 381
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:52 am
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Thread_Alchemist wrote: | I have never read the comic so I guess I can't comment on the content. However I do think that offering the body pillows was a bad decision. Just from a perception stand point. You spend a lot of time explaining why people shouldn't call the comic child porn because the intent is not to titillate but then ruin that by offering something to titillate the buyer.
I think that they probably should have coughed up some more money and had the creator draw up a few more originals. Her art seems lovely and it would have helped to reinforce the paragraphs above about the comics plot. Personally I won't be contributing. |
That's fine if you don't contribute, this kickstarter isn't for you but for people that were already fans of the series. Not exactly a fan of body pillows myself or anything like that but honestly there's nothing wrong with giving fans some fanservice like that. Yeah, there are people that do like the loli characters in KnJ and that's fine because even if it was meant to titillate (Which some content in the manga clearly does while still offering a pretty interesting plot and characters) that doesn't suddenly mean it can't be sold because it's a fictional story. Period.
Also again, it's NOT child porn because it doesn't involve real children. No one was harmed making this series, it's just like playing violent videogames. Most people can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
If someone doesn't like some story or some form of art, just because some people are against it doesn't mean they can censor it for everyone else or try to stop it from existing. That's a dangerous slope to start down. Just ignore it if its not your thing.
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encrypted12345
Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 724
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:02 am
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I'd ... lost all hope for an official localization. It's a miracle for me to say the least.
I'm ... crying tears of joy.
Okay, okay, fanboyism aside, I was hoping a bit that the controversy over this manga would have died out by now, but apparently it hasn't or at least not entirely. I just hope that KS doesn't cancel the project for its infamy.
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Melicans
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 627
Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:02 am
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Utsuro no Hako wrote: |
Short answer: Under US law, it's legal.
Long answer: A couple decades ago, Congress passed a law that forbade any simulated child pornography, including CG and hand drawn artwork. The Supreme Court eventually ruled that the law was so overly broad that it could affect legitimate works of art like the movies Kids and American Beauty, and since such simulated works weren't produced by harming minors the way real child pornography is, the government couldn't outright ban them. The court did allow that such works could be banned if the ban applied the Miller Test for obscenity. Congress immediately turned around and rewrote the law to comply with Miller.
Now, in the Miller Test, the government must prove three things to show that a work is too obscene for Constitutional protection.
First, the work must appeal to the prurient interests of the audience. KnJ certainly qualifies.
Second, the work must depict sexual activity in a patently offensive way. This is hard to prove, but I think you can find a judge or jury who'd feel that way about KnJ.
And finally, the work must lack serious literary, artistic or political value. As awful as KnJ is, it passes this hurdle. It has a plot and social message, no matter how reprehensible we may find it.
That doesn't mean the government couldn't try to go after them; it just means that if they have enough money for lawyers (or can interest somebody from the ACLU or EFF), they'd prevail. |
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that history on the subject in the US and it was very interesting to learn that it is almost certainly legal in the country and the history as to why. I do still wonder how the law would apply in other countries where the series may be shipped to/printed in, but that was nonetheless informative. Thanks for the serious answer =).
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littlegreenwolf
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4796
Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:07 am
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Alan Moore's Lost Girls is about young girls, specifically Dorthy, Wendy, and Alice (Oz, Peter Pan, Wonderland) exploring their sexuality in a graphic novel format. A lot of people avoid it because of that, but it is not illegal, and you can buy it at a number of comic book stores.
Lolicon has and is being sold in the US. Some counties in the us will try to prosecute Lolicon, but this, like it or not, is NOT Lolicon. It's completely legal. This would never hold up in court, and even without ACLU or the EFF the CMLDF would step in and provide assistance and tons of expert artist testimony from a large number of professional and artistic sources in the comic industry.
The most that could happen here is kickstarter shuts the campaign down due to someone somehow convincing them it's child pornography. But they'd have other places to go.
I really don't understand people. This exists. It has now for quite a while. Will its existence in English really bother you, especially since you more than likely will never see it unless you order it through the kickstarter? Go buy what you like, and ignore this. It doesn't concern you and doesn't hurt anyone, and trying to guilt trip people for something that just bothers your morals isn't going to stop someone from liking it. No one is messed up for finding it entertaining, and no one is messed up for not liking it.
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Fatt_One
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Ohio USA
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:23 am
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encrypted12345 wrote: | I'd ... lost all hope for an official localization. It's a miracle for me to say the least.
I'm ... crying tears of joy.
Okay, okay, fanboyism aside, I was hoping a bit that the controversy over this manga would have died out by now, but apparently it hasn't or at least not entirely. I just hope that KS doesn't cancel the project for its infamy. |
I'd be really upset if it was cancelled again.
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Billy Toplady
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:07 am
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I'm interested but never back KS before so I'm a little on edge. If there's a chance to get the books via normal store I'll definitely buy them.
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NGK
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 244
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:10 am
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Make this manga for-sale in USA only!
Why?
Because the other English-speaking countries from Canada/UK/Australia/New Zealand do not have real freedom of speech and expression as robust as USA.
I can picture this manga finally succeeding in getting a chance to retail in the stateside (the second attempt), but could cause nothing but real trouble to customers in... for example... Canada, because of CBSA having a side job as a Saudi-like moral police.
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VanGosroth
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 299
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:18 am
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Fatt_One wrote: |
encrypted12345 wrote: | I'd ... lost all hope for an official localization. It's a miracle for me to say the least.
I'm ... crying tears of joy.
Okay, okay, fanboyism aside, I was hoping a bit that the controversy over this manga would have died out by now, but apparently it hasn't or at least not entirely. I just hope that KS doesn't cancel the project for its infamy. |
I'd be really upset if it was cancelled again. |
Why would they cancel oit? DMP publishes homosexual erotica and pornography. I highly doubt anything anyone's going to say about this title hasn't been repeated a million times before.
Also people comparing KNJ to Loli Hentai clearly have never read KNJ or an actual loli hentai. Just ignore them and move on. This same thing happened with Dance in the Vampire Bund's release where people were going insane over something like 5-10 seconds of topless nudity from Mina.
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NGK
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 244
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:28 am
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[quote="VanGosroth"][quote="Fatt_One"]
encrypted12345 wrote: |
Also people comparing KNJ to Loli Hentai clearly have never read KNJ or an actual loli hentai. Just ignore them and move on. This same thing happened with Dance in the Vampire Bund's release where people were going insane over something like 5-10 seconds of topless nudity from Mina. |
It is hard to ignore when ANN having detractors who are unable to actually read manga they form opinions on as reviewers is not legitimate criticism, it's factless shit on par with the Daily Mail and Forbes.
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Asturaetus
Joined: 28 Apr 2014
Posts: 29
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:09 am
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I am pleasently suprised that KnJ gets another chance for a western release. I never understood the public outcry in the anime/manga community.
Fiction is not only mere entertain. It isn't restricted to present only stories people enjoy. There are stories that make you sad or induce horror or even repulsion. Isn't it the prerogative of fiction to push past the boundaries and challege its readers views and beliefs?
I never understood the notion to condemn fiction or question its right to existence just because it doesn't allign with ones taste or views.
So what if it is a story that sexualizes young children? So was Vladimir Nabokov's 'Lolita' and that is a classic. So what if it challenges the common view that children somehow are asexual objects? That for the love of god can never never be the instigators of sexual acts and only be victims.
There is merit in exploring themes that repulse the average reader. There is merit in challenging taboos. Even just if it leads one to think about these taboos and why they exist. Reaffirming or overthrowing ones former believes.
And I strongly oppose anyone that there is no merit to KnJ. For my part it was an interesting to read a story. Honestly sometimes I actually really welcomed the fanservice because the drama parts got so dark. And one point that Watashiya Kaworu handled really well were her characters and their backstories and motivations. None of the characters felt empty to me. All had their problems and past or present traumas that dictated their actions.
So as soon as I can scrape together a little money I gladly and wholeheartedly back this KS.
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enurtsol
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14886
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:17 am
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Lot of things changed since a decade ago:
Loli stuff gotten more pervy, so the shock factor has died down
Retail shops aren't the gatekeepers they once were when they wouldn't had stocked Nymphet
Mainstream taboos being broken (multiplexes no problem screening Fifty Shades of Grey)
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