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v1cious
Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 6235
Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:58 pm
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uh oh... this promises to turn ugly
seriously, who the hell gets off on this stuff anyway?
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abunai
Old Regular
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:06 pm
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v1cious wrote: | uh oh... this promises to turn ugly |
It already is ugly.
v1cious wrote: | seriously, who the hell gets off on this stuff anyway? |
When it come to human sexuality, the rule of thumb is: if you can imagine it, then somebody, somewhere, is doing it and enjoying it.
This is a truism for all possible permutations of sexual behaviour, whether it be as comparatively innocent as swinging from the chandeliers with a banana up their rectum while whistling "Pennsylvania 6-5000"; or as nasty and revolting as child molestation.
- abunai
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Haiseikoh 1973
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 1590
Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas.
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:21 pm
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Quote: | In 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a 6-year-old law banning virtual child pornography. The subsequent "Child Obscenity and Pornography Prevention Act of 2002 banned only virtual images that are indistinguishable from real child porn, and prohibits all obscene pornographic images of prepubescent children. |
And this results in assine photolab techs turning in loving parents for taking pics of a nude junior in the bathtub along with pics from the Family Reunion.
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Lost_Toys
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 50
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:41 pm
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"The utmost priority of the constitution is to guarantee fundamental human rights. I believe the freedom of expression does not allow for the depiction of little girls being violently raped, depriving them of their basic human rights."
Insert: Sticky Wicket.
Here is the problem with her argument: the characters are virtual, fake, nonexistent. If she is allowed to apply constitutional rights to virtual creations, then films, videogames, books, and other popular mediums of entertainment fall under the same protection rights. Videogames in which you kill, maim, or otherwise harm another person becomes illegal to make, distribute, and play since you are depriving them of their basic human rights.
I can understand if her argument applied to material that was directly related to a singular minor. That is, the source material used in the creation of the depictions came from a real source [ie. a little girl]. But then her argument will be void, since "lolikon" and "kinderkon" are protected under the constitution as long as no identifiable minor was used.
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Vekou
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 329
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:13 pm
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Props to these guys for standing up and addressing one of the most sickening facets of society, particularly Japanese society. There should be swift and severe punishment dealt to those who encourage, condone and make money off this kind of material. It's just wrong.
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AstroNerdBoy
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:09 pm
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v1cious wrote: | seriously, who the hell gets off on this stuff anyway? |
A ton of Japanese apparently. That was a culture shock for me when I lived in Japan. The hentai manga and doujinshi covered every fetish known (and unknown) to man and that included lolicon and shoutacon.
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Zeiram
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 317
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:15 pm
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hmm, well, i dunno
i mean i could say one of two things - bout dang time
or - why did it get this far to begin with?
i dunno, i love japan but i have always had a weary eye on the darkside of the culture and i try not to talk about it with people i'd liek to convert to the fandom. anime is an enormous spectrum, nothing is sacred and nothig is forgotten. i love it for this, but it has its problems.
so by all means if it is nece3sary to do this, than do it, cut down on the crap. can sex and violance be kept separate? hmm
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fxg97873
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 211
Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:49 pm
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I have to say. If such a ban were to happen. It would radically change the anime and manga landscape forever.
I know of very little anime that does not have some sort of lolita or underage theme to it (even nudity sometimes).
Such as:
Evangelion (underage nudity)
Utena (nudity and everything else imaginable)
GTO (talk about lolicon)
Ranma 1/2 (underage nudity)
Chobits (lolicon and nudity)
His and Her Circumstances (*spoiler ahead*...underage sex)
Mahoromatic (total underage nudity)
Fruits Basket (Momiji...'nuff said)
Sailor Moon (lolicon)
Battle Athletes (underage lesbian themes)
Steel Angel Kurumi (lolicon and nudity)
etc., etc.
Frankly, we have much stricter laws on imagery media here in the U.S. and sadly it does not seem to help too much (its seems like it is everyday that some poor child is victimized in some horrible manner in this country).
I don't think strict laws on imagery media will help Japan as it seems to be helping little here in the U.S.
Japan has historically been more accepting of sex and sexual themes in their society (secular background). It's part of their culture.
In any case, imagine how your favorite anime would look today if such bans were in existence...
mk2000
Last edited by fxg97873 on Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jsyxx
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:55 pm
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Pedophiles don't care about laws concerning drawn images, they're still going to molest children either way. Restricting the freedom of speech like that ain't worth it. What would be next, banning movies with guns because some kid shoots up his school. We shouldn't trust the government to put their grubby fingers on completely art like that.
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s_j
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:56 pm
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v1cious wrote: |
seriously, who the hell gets off on this stuff anyway? |
Looking at the releases from the last 30 days, 6 out of 22 ero-manga tankoubon is focused on lolicon. That's not to say the other books have no lolicon elements, just that these 9 have it as a primary theme.
I'm sure a majority of the Japanese do not like this material either, but just looking at the release ratios, there is a not-insignificant audience amongst ero-manga readers. Should the rights of 'virtual' characters outweigh the rights of so many readers to enjoy these books in the privacy of their own homes, and abridge the free speech rights of the creators? Shouldn't comics enjoy the same protections afforded to written words?
Sticky Wicket indeed...
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jsyxx
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:00 pm
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As far as I'm concerned drawings and written word are the same thing legally.
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Haru to Ashura
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 617
Location: Termina
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:12 pm
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I think that it's good that someone is finally taking a stand against this, it's about time. Child pornography is hurtful towards children, and getting rid of it will protect them. As someone mentioned previously on this thread, there's apparently every type of disturbing fetish imaginable in Japanese H stuff. It's very probable that a lot of rapists, molesters, etc., wouldn't have started doing what they do unless they got the idea from some source. Getting rid of those sources can save childrens lives. In all honestly, what's more important - freedom or press or the lives of children?
Or at least a selling ban would help. Only selling to people of appropriate age, without a violent criminal history, etc....because though I don't know very much about Japan, I know that there are, realistically, no restraints for underage kids to get their hands on that shit.
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TiredGamer
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 246
Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:38 pm
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Often in history the cruelest and most inhumane acts begin with the moral certitude of a few outspoken individuals...
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Aaron White
Old Regular
Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:46 pm
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Certainly child pornography is monsterous and inexcusable. On the other hand, my favorite novel is Lolita, which some not-too-bright folks would wrongly dismiss as child porn. So one needs to be judicious in drawing up laws about this stuff, because it's too easy to draw up laws that mess up good things while failing to stop the bad. All this stuff about child porn giving people the idea to commit horrible crimes is speculative and unproven; anyway, for most lucid people there's a huge gap between fantasy and reality. Most of my erotic fantasies have zero real-world interest for me; I wouldn't want to do them. Lolicon is a bad thing, but I doubt it directly contributes to much child molestation; I think most people, including most people who enjoy it, understand that it has no bearing on reality. Instead I suspect its main effect is a distorting and coarsening of the readers' erotic sensibilities. Just as eating lots of fast food messes up one's palate, or watching too much lame anime coarsens one's aesthetics, so porn can warp one's understanding of real sexuality. So the very real evil of child porn needs to be actively but intelligently addressed. Alarmism never, ever solves anything.
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Akumaphyre
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 33
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:48 pm
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[quote="Haru to Ashura"] It's very probable that a lot of rapists, molesters, etc., wouldn't have started doing what they do unless they got the idea from some source. quote]
I don't support rapists, molesters etc. , but the above statement is flawed ,going along with your idea they should get rid of anything thats violent or portrays violence as well.
Along the lines of this they should also get rid of "normal" H manga as it might encourage innapropraite behavior.
That way they would cut down on murders and people who where even thinking about commiting murders or violent crimes, or doing anything wrong.
People who are already "messed up" in some way are probably going to do something like molest or kill.etc regardless.
I would also like to point out that on the the whole Japan has fewer violent crimes and crimes against children than the USA, they must be doing something right.
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