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Harleyquin
Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2957
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:13 am
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I'm no expert, but is there a way for the record streaming revenues to actually make their way into animator pay slips? Both Japan and the rest of the world have animator pay at a level not commensurate with the long hours and pressure they find themselves in each project; not to mention the profit margin for even the biggest hits isn't enough to save them from the taxman.
It's still a big industry and one which is still growing despite pressure from other overseas offerings, but somehow I don't think the current model is sustainable when it feels each season is another bumper crop from the previous one and there's only so many eyeballs to go around.
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JustMonika
Joined: 17 Jan 2022
Posts: 1141
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:35 am
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Harleyquin wrote: | I'm no expert, but is there a way for the record streaming revenues to actually make their way into animator pay slips? Both Japan and the rest of the world have animator pay at a level not commensurate with the long hours and pressure they find themselves in each project; not to mention the profit margin for even the biggest hits isn't enough to save them from the taxman.
It's still a big industry and one which is still growing despite pressure from other overseas offerings, but somehow I don't think the current model is sustainable when it feels each season is another bumper crop from the previous one and there's only so many eyeballs to go around. |
Do you feel like the market is oversaturated at the moment? Too many shows per season and not enough time to watch all the good ones?
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WANNFH
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1801
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am
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JustMonika wrote: | Do you feel like the market is oversaturated at the moment? Too many shows per season and not enough time to watch all the good ones? |
If anything, it's basically the same as always, outside of the COVID years that affected the production of many shows and reduced the number - you can only feel how many series are actually in the season because nowadays streaming services pick nearly all of them and not a few chosen titles.
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Thespacemaster
Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 1162
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:45 am
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WANNFH wrote: |
JustMonika wrote: | Do you feel like the market is oversaturated at the moment? Too many shows per season and not enough time to watch all the good ones? |
If anything, it's basically the same as always, outside of the COVID years that affected the production of many shows and reduced the number - you can only feel how many series are actually in the season because nowadays streaming services pick nearly all of them and not a few chosen titles. |
No way,if you got back pre 2010 it was not as saturated as it is now, to many titles are being produced at a record pace, the industry itself is suffering cause they can't keep up with the demand, i kind of want them to slow down a bit and give more attention to some particular projects rather than a quick production and move to the next.
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WANNFH
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1801
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:29 pm
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Thespacemaster wrote: | No way,if you got back pre 2010 it was not as saturated as it is now, to many titles are being produced at a record pace, the industry itself is suffering cause they can't keep up with the demand, i kind of want them to slow down a bit and give more attention to some particular projects rather than a quick production and move to the next. |
Nay - that was started way earlier than in 2010's - more like around the '00s, when it was pretty usual to pump ~50 shows per season - and if anything that is decreased from that time, that's the number of series that get more than one season of running in production.
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Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2288
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:07 pm
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These AJA reports include figures for the number of minutes of TV animation per year. The all-time peak was in 2006, at 136,407 minutes (77,326 daytime, 59,081 late-night). Then it bottomed out in 2010 (90,445 minutes), and the most since then has been 2018 at 130,347 minutes (57,430 daytime, 72,917 late-night). There's a lot more movies now than there were in 2006, though. (They don't seem to be counting streaming-only anime yet.)
2006, for those who don't remember, was the year of Death Note, Code Geass, Ouran High School Host Club, Black Lagoon, Fate/DEEN, Haruhi Suzumiya, The Familiar of Zero, and Higurashi. I think we can safely say those were definitely made in the context of a bubble -- Geneon USA folded the next year, after all. The current circumstances are different, but I think most people will agree we're in an overproduction crisis.
WANNFH wrote: | you can only feel how many series are actually in the season because nowadays streaming services pick nearly all of them and not a few chosen titles. |
That's been a thing for nearly a decade, though.
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tsog
Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 256
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:07 am
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Shay Guy wrote: | I think most people will agree we're in an overproduction crisis. |
The market has doubled since 2006, so the money is there for the taking. Instead of more anime fighting for the same amount of eyes (and therefore money), the TAM is much much bigger than in 2006.
The big difference now is that anime feels like an ad, an afterthought, for something else (LN/game/manga/idols), instead of being the main attraction. For better or worse anime economics is increasingly tied to Big Gaming and Big Publishing now: Bandai buying out Sunrise, Kadokawa investing in ENGI/Kinema Citrus, Sony owning Aniplex and its studios A-1 Pictures and CloverWorks.
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WANNFH
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1801
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:24 pm
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tsog wrote: | The big difference now is that anime feels like an ad, an afterthought, for something else (LN/game/manga/idols), instead of being the main attraction. For better or worse anime economics is increasingly tied to Big Gaming and Big Publishing now: Bandai buying out Sunrise, Kadokawa investing in ENGI/Kinema Citrus, Sony owning Aniplex and its studios A-1 Pictures and CloverWorks. |
Wait, wasn't it ALWAYS like that and anime series were seen from the production aspect as nothing but glorified ads from ancient times, even before Japanese bubble crashed and the production committees system was established?
Cause nearly all Japanese TV animation since the '70s was just made to promote the toys or manga, and even the originals were made in some kind of multimedia franchising in the mind - and it's barely changed since, especially when the money for it usually came from publishers/game developers/music labels/other sources. And most of the profits also come to them too, making a lot of animation studios doing business in red and not participating as part of PC at all, so even if the anime blows, the actual animators get nothing but peanuts with a paycheck.
There is no difference at all.
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tsog
Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 256
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:54 pm
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WANNFH wrote: | Wait, wasn't it ALWAYS like that and anime series were seen from the production aspect as nothing but glorified ads from ancient times, even before Japanese bubble crashed and the production committees system was established?
Cause nearly all Japanese TV animation since the '70s was just made to promote the toys or manga, and even the originals were made in some kind of multimedia franchising in the mind - and it's barely changed since, especially when the money for it usually came from publishers/game developers/music labels/other sources. And most of the profits also come to them too, making a lot of animation studios doing business in red and not participating as part of PC at all, so even if the anime blows, the actual animators get nothing but peanuts with a paycheck.
There is no difference at all. |
There are some differences, but it's something I struggle to pinpoint or explain. For one, bringing studios in-house means studios are less independent, and that can affect the kinds of projects a studio takes on.
I'd love to do some data analysis on this, but to me it also feels like newer anime tend to be less conclusive. While there were also plenty of manga/LN adaptations two decades ago, proportionally speaking (and this is just my speculation) more of those were adapted near or after the original source ended, something I see much less these days. While both are mixed media strategies, the former positions anime less as an ad and more as a reward for fans. Nowadays, anime is used more to expose a source to a wider audience, and the expectation is that you as the viewer will continue to story elsewhere.
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Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2288
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:01 pm
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tsog wrote: | While there were also plenty of manga/LN adaptations two decades ago, proportionally speaking (and this is just my speculation) more of those were adapted near or after the original source ended, something I see much less these days. |
Oh? Two decades ago, the old shonen anime model was thriving -- One Piece, Naruto, The Prince of Tennis. Love Hina's anime started just halfway through the manga's run, Full Metal Panic was just over three years into the LNs' 13-year run, and of course there's OG FMA.
Yeah, there were cases like Azumanga Daioh and Death Note. But in more recent years we've had Assassination Classroom, Demon Slayer, Erased. I'm really not sure the cross-promotional aspect has changed that much.
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tsog
Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 256
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:12 am
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Shay Guy wrote: |
Yeah, there were cases like Azumanga Daioh and Death Note. But in more recent years we've had Assassination Classroom, Demon Slayer, Erased. I'm really not sure the cross-promotional aspect has changed that much. |
Shonen manga, at least.
I alternate watching between older and newer shows, and just going down my list from most recently watched: Shichinin no Nana, Welcome to the NHK, Black Blood Brothers, Chrono Crusade, Aishiteruze Baby, Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko. Randomly checking on winter 2005 on MAL, I see Peach Girl, Girls Bravo: Second Season, Starship Operators, Buzzer Beater. Taking out Buzzer Beater, that's three out of 20+ new shows that season.
Current season (fall 2022) is exceptionally loaded, with Mob Psycho 100 III, Bleach: Thousand-Year Blood War, Urusei Yatsura (2022), Golden Kamuy Season 4, Raven of the Inner Palace, I've Somehow Gotten Stronger When I Improved My Farm-Related Skills (manga is still ongoing, not sure what's the situation with this one), and maybe others I missed. Aside from the shonen manga ones (and the remake of Yatsura), that just leaves two out of the 40+ new shows.
Including them would make four out of 20+ for winter 2005 and six out of 40+ for fall 2022.
Quickly checking summer 2022, I see three out of 40+: The Devil is a Part-Timer! Season 2, Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer, Tokyo Mew Mew New (a remake).
Again, this is just me sampling three seasons 17 years apart; I would need a deeper analysis and check more years to confirm trends over time.
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