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Cryten
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 1136
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:45 am
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Its funny how political terms can mean so many things in context. I am used to talking about liberalism in terms of economics. Where Liberalism seeks to control as little of the economy in favour of business facing the forces of supply and demand (that is the Laissez-faire approach). As opposed to various less well defined movements including socialism, liberal socialism, conservatism (a much debated label itself) or just public infrastructure. All in various ways seeking balances with national infrastructure to support a nation.
That being one form of liberalism, others being your purely political theory one mentioned in the article, then you get various nations political movements, like Australia's Liberals who mostly seek to wind down public spending, UK's Liberals who fashion themselves as progressive science driven politics and the weirdest of all American Liberal movements which are ultra conservative.
That was a very long winded way of saying its interesting to see this definition when I have seen so many others that have conflicted with each other and apparently this version. Based on own Aussie upbringing I have never thought of Liberalism as an Idealistic attitude about human nature.
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Stretch2424
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 168
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:51 am
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My impression was that Genjitsu- didn't take the realist philosophy seriously enough. You would think that the gimmick behind this show would be what would happen if some educated person with a pragmatic, realist outlook took charge of a video-game like sword-and-sorcery kingdom. But if that was the case, why did the five top candidates for government offices which Kazuya's talent search recruited include a singer, a glutton(!) and a girl who can talk to animals? Only one, maybe two, of the five might serve a truly realist system of government. This show seems to me to be going with the flow of typical isekai series more than diverting from it. Maybe the writer was afraid that there wouldn't be enough viewers who would appreciate complicated politics and therefore he shouldn't take any major chances.
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Yttrbio
Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3670
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:46 am
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I also found it pretty implausible that apparently no one who has lived in the world their entire life had thought about these things, and only a kid from a peaceful world order who had read about some stuff in a book could bring those ideas to bear.
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meiam
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3450
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:49 am
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Mercenary very rarely switched side during conflict (they were often more reliable than native army which were not made of professional soldier) and cancelling their contract when you fear an internal revolt is probably the stupidest decision possible since that would flag to the would be rebel that now is the perfect time to revolt.
Also you really don't need to have modern understanding to realize that hungry people could rebel, I mean, bread and game?
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Casval Rem Deikun
Joined: 24 Feb 2021
Posts: 270
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:12 pm
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I'm really hoping The Ideal Sponger Life gets some attention cause I feel like it handles what this series tries to do much better, without all the tropes.
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lhernan02
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:05 pm
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meiam wrote: | Mercenary very rarely switched side during conflict |
While that is technically correct, it overlooks the fact that mercenaries regularly mutinied or deserted (sometimes in the middle of a battle) if they were not paid (a very common occurrence at the time, to the degree that mercenaries preferred to sign up for sieges (more dangerous than field battles) since they could claim pillage and "freedoms" in lieu of payment). A mercenary that switched sides was a renegade by imperial law and thus could be killed by anyone (for a reward/fun/vengeance/practice/whatever) it was also very bad for business (nobody expected unpaid mercenaries to fight, but switching sides was another matter).
meiam wrote: | (they were often more reliable than native army which were not made of professional soldier) |
This is a modern falsehood/oversimplification. There was no such thing as a "national army" in Europe between the 6th and 17th centuries (the Spanish Tercios being the one exception). Nobles/free cities had their small guard corps who were full time professionals, in times of emergency they hired mercenaries to increase their shock power, and for defense called a general levy (the peasant hordes, usually barely trained and barely equipped) to make up the numbers (levies rarely took part in offensive actions for obvious reasons). In this scenario, yes the mercenaries were more reliable than the levy, but the levy was not a native army, it was a part time defensive militia (at best), but they were the equals (and more often that not made up of the same people) of the guard corps.
meiam wrote: | cancelling their contract when you fear an internal revolt is probably the stupidest decision possible since that would flag to the would be rebel that now is the perfect time to revolt. |
Depends, to me, it looks like a valid gamble on his part, he is short of cash, so risking a rebellion for perceived weakness is far safer than a guaranteed rebellion by professionals if he stops playing them while they are under contract. The stupid part is why the kingdom had mercenaries in a time of peace (the war with the Demon realm appears to be on hold at the moment). Unemployed mercenaries were historically a rather harmless lot. The stories of mercenary bands raping and pillaging across the countryside are false outside of a few periods/areas of anarchy (e.g. Italy during the 15th century, central Europe during the 30 Year's War, the Balkans during the 7th to 14th centuries).
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Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2660
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:46 pm
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Cryten wrote: | ...then you get various nations political movements, like Australia's Liberals who mostly seek to wind down public spending, UK's Liberals who fashion themselves as progressive science driven politics and the weirdest of all American Liberal movements which are ultra conservative.... |
These labels are so manipulated these days, in the US at the present those calling themselves "Liberals" are espousing a version of Socialism/Totalitarianism while "Conservatives" seek to curtail government spending and social engineering legislation.
Kudos to the columnist for a great article that actually brings some political theory into the discussion. Hope it puts to bed the fiction circulating that this show has no political elements at all. I suppose some don't notice because they are so well integrated with the narrative as is pointed out.
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Ruhrpottpatriot
Joined: 26 Aug 2021
Posts: 65
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:51 am
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The problem I see with this series is that the author looked at a few key historical persons and what they wrote, took it at face value and never bothered to dig deeper into it. This is best seen in our hero's approach to Machiavelli. Like many people, he takes Il Principe at face value, which you mustn't. Machiavelli's best know work isn't a manual, it's a commentary on a monarch methods.
To understand Il Principe, people need to understand Machiavelli (death of the author was certainly not a topic for him); they need to understand that for him the most fulfilling task was to serve his republic and only that. He hated the Medici and loved the (Roman) Republic, as is clearly visible if one reads Discorsi sopra la prima deca di Tito Livio or Discourses on Livy in short. Basically Il Principe is Machiavelli's thinly veiled take on "Get out of my city you dumb Medici", where he tries to reveal how monarchs manipulate the people so they stay in power.
However, Genjitsu... didn't do any of that, and while the rest of the series is certainly a good take on the stale Isekai genre, it falls flat in the area where it shouldn't have. It's certainly enjoyable, but far from the best in it's class.
As others have wrote: The Ideal Sponger Life just does it better.
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Jose Cruz
Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1796
Location: South America
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:36 pm
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Hiroki not Takuya wrote: |
Cryten wrote: | ...then you get various nations political movements, like Australia's Liberals who mostly seek to wind down public spending, UK's Liberals who fashion themselves as progressive science driven politics and the weirdest of all American Liberal movements which are ultra conservative.... |
These labels are so manipulated these days, in the US at the present those calling themselves "Liberals" are espousing a version of Socialism/Totalitarianism while "Conservatives" seek to curtail government spending and social engineering legislation. |
In the American context the word "liberal" would mean "social liberal" or "progressive liberal" in other countries. They are still technically liberal but more open to the idea of increasing government spending to distribute incomes to the less well-of in society.
Quote: | Kudos to the columnist for a great article that actually brings some political theory into the discussion. Hope it puts to bed the fiction circulating that this show has no political elements at all. I suppose some don't notice because they are so well integrated with the narrative as is pointed out. |
I guess every show that features war has political elements (like Kingdom or Slime). In the case of Slime the international politics of the show are very idealistic.
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sadoldguy
Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 68
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:24 am
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The five super candidates all end up being extremely important in the long run. The black robed dude becomes Prime Minister almost instantly and equally plots with our hero with his extensive knowledge. The animal talking girl recruits large animals to plow the lands to build roads, dramatically increasing the ability to ship food from food-rich areas to food-poor lands. The glutton publicizes so many new foods he becomes the god of food. The singer is used in a propaganda war. The elf girl bodyguard leads to saving the elf tribe which leads to the elves helping during the civil war. .
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Zefram
Joined: 02 Oct 2019
Posts: 116
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:45 am
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lhernan02 wrote: |
meiam wrote: | Mercenary very rarely switched side during conflict |
While that is technically correct, it overlooks the fact that mercenaries regularly mutinied or deserted (sometimes in the middle of a battle) if they were not paid (a very common occurrence at the time, to the degree that mercenaries preferred to sign up for sieges (more dangerous than field battles) since they could claim pillage and "freedoms" in lieu of payment). A mercenary that switched sides was a renegade by imperial law and thus could be killed by anyone (for a reward/fun/vengeance/practice/whatever) it was also very bad for business (nobody expected unpaid mercenaries to fight, but switching sides was another matter).
meiam wrote: | (they were often more reliable than native army which were not made of professional soldier) |
This is a modern falsehood/oversimplification. There was no such thing as a "national army" in Europe between the 6th and 17th centuries (the Spanish Tercios being the one exception). Nobles/free cities had their small guard corps who were full time professionals, in times of emergency they hired mercenaries to increase their shock power, and for defense called a general levy (the peasant hordes, usually barely trained and barely equipped) to make up the numbers (levies rarely took part in offensive actions for obvious reasons). In this scenario, yes the mercenaries were more reliable than the levy, but the levy was not a native army, it was a part time defensive militia (at best), but they were the equals (and more often that not made up of the same people) of the guard corps.
meiam wrote: | cancelling their contract when you fear an internal revolt is probably the stupidest decision possible since that would flag to the would be rebel that now is the perfect time to revolt. |
Depends, to me, it looks like a valid gamble on his part, he is short of cash, so risking a rebellion for perceived weakness is far safer than a guaranteed rebellion by professionals if he stops playing them while they are under contract. The stupid part is why the kingdom had mercenaries in a time of peace (the war with the Demon realm appears to be on hold at the moment). Unemployed mercenaries were historically a rather harmless lot. The stories of mercenary bands raping and pillaging across the countryside are false outside of a few periods/areas of anarchy (e.g. Italy during the 15th century, central Europe during the 30 Year's War, the Balkans during the 7th to 14th centuries). |
How about going further back, if one were to look at examples of countries/empires falling due to overreliance on mercenary troops that would be both Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire
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Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3564
Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:30 am
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Zefram wrote: | How about going further back, if one were to look at examples of countries/empires falling due to overreliance on mercenary troops that would be both Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire |
Nah, if we're talking about triggers for the late (west)Roman fall, it had at least as much to do with the Praetorian Guard, an elite guard for emperors that became more and more corrupt and self-serving as time and emperors went by, and some of those emperors at their hands...
At that time legions in outer regions started to be often largely composed of non-citizens as central Rome couldn't muster enough troops, aggravated by shrinking population, and those legions often got filled out with auxiliary ´mercenary'-type elements(like Germanic troops). There were certainly issues in light of those things, but I personally would put the majority of the blame in the endgame at the feet of the mismanagement of the empire from central...
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lhernan02
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:02 pm
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Blanchimont wrote: |
Zefram wrote: | How about going further back, if one were to look at examples of countries/empires falling due to overreliance on mercenary troops that would be both Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire |
Nah, if we're talking about triggers for the late (west)Roman fall, it had at least as much to do with the Praetorian Guard, an elite guard for emperors that became more and more corrupt and self-serving as time and emperors went by, and some of those emperors at their hands... |
The classic Praetorian Guard was eliminated by Septimus Severus (replaced by his own version) and finally suppressed by Constantine the Great, so their king making powers (specially on display after Caligula, Commodus, and Elagabalus) were long gone by the end.
Blanchimont wrote: | At that time legions in outer regions started to be often largely composed of non-citizens as central Rome couldn't muster enough troops, aggravated by shrinking population, and those legions often got filled out with auxiliary ´mercenary'-type elements(like Germanic troops). There were certainly issues in light of those things, but I personally would put the majority of the blame in the endgame at the feet of the mismanagement of the empire from central... |
Remember that all free subjects were made Romans by Caracalla (more efficient way of taxing than the old tribute system), but you are correct on the manning of the late Roman armies with barbarians (the last three or four Magistri Militum were barbarians, although by that time they were Roman citizens of equestrian (and I think senatorial in one case) rank)), although primarily due to economics than low birth rate. As far as the blame for 476, books are still being written about that (1453 is far simpler).
One final note to you and Zefram, I would argue that "auxiliaries" were not mercenaries in the modern (e.g. post 12th cent.) sense, they were closer to the Ostlegionen or the Askaris of the 20th cent. Not free soldiers/units for hire, but units formed of volunteers and/or conscripts by a state for that state's purpose.
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Feng Lengshun
Joined: 24 Aug 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Indonesia
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:39 pm
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Stretch2424 wrote: | My impression was that Genjitsu- didn't take the realist philosophy seriously enough. You would think that the gimmick behind this show would be what would happen if some educated person with a pragmatic, realist outlook took charge of a video-game like sword-and-sorcery kingdom. But if that was the case, why did the five top candidates for government offices which Kazuya's talent search recruited include a singer, a glutton(!) and a girl who can talk to animals? Only one, maybe two, of the five might serve a truly realist system of government. This show seems to me to be going with the flow of typical isekai series more than diverting from it. Maybe the writer was afraid that there wouldn't be enough viewers who would appreciate complicated politics and therefore he shouldn't take any major chances. |
The glutton was primarily a stop-gap to deal with the initial starvation issue, while the country fixes its food issues. Information wasn't yet fully written and indexed out in our world, so it's valid to employ them for their knowledge. He wasn't just employing a glutton, but the best expert in food knowledge - which actually becomes critical for war logistics.
Afterwards, even if you have no care for the person, it's a good idea to keep them because of the Prime Minister have the belief that his presence and acceptance by the King is a good sign of wisdom, and it's good to keep Hakuya's employ given that he's a good second in command.
In general, the book goes more in depth with the logistics involved and the rationale for each decision. A lot of which is pretty convenient, I agree, but it had a decent enough reasoning for it that I don't really mind most of the time. Another issue with the book is that it prefers to quote on texts like Machiavelli and Sun Tzu over just naming actual events and periods in history.
That said, the logistical aspects do get sidelined later on in the books, where the focus goes more into the developing the international relationships of the characters and the nations. I think they're building up for a war, and the international relationship is probably for that, in terms of plot purpose.
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