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INTEREST: Veteran Animator Toshiyuki Inoue Gives Young Animators Advice to Negotiate Better Wages




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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5504
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:05 pm Reply with quote
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According to Inoue, another factor to take into consideration is how long it takes to draw an in-between frame. 35 years ago, Inoue knew of people who drew 1,000 in-between frames in a month, but this would be impossible nowadays because the complexity of the character designs mean that drawings take longer to produce. This implies that in-between animation nowadays should be worth more comparatively.
OK then, we just need all Anime characters to have really simple designs like the sort ONE draws, thus in-betweeners can draw a lot more of them. Failing that just pay them more per tween.

I wonder how far this goes back to, at least the 80s, I feel that it was better in the 60s. Maybe conditions got worse in the 70s, I know the horrible working conditions on The Castle of Cagliostro was not made him want to start his own studio.
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Ermat_46



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 740
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:54 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Quote:
According to Inoue, another factor to take into consideration is how long it takes to draw an in-between frame. 35 years ago, Inoue knew of people who drew 1,000 in-between frames in a month, but this would be impossible nowadays because the complexity of the character designs mean that drawings take longer to produce. This implies that in-between animation nowadays should be worth more comparatively.
OK then, we just need all Anime characters to have really simple designs like the sort ONE draws, thus in-betweeners can draw a lot more of them. Failing that just pay them more per tween.

I wonder how far this goes back to, at least the 80s, I feel that it was better in the 60s. Maybe conditions got worse in the 70s, I know the horrible working conditions on The Castle of Cagliostro was not made him want to start his own studio.


Oh, you know, have them completely shift to 3D animation.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:21 am Reply with quote
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In a later tweet thread, Inoue shared his belief that the best person to talk to on the production side is a "sympathetic producer" because they have influence over the budget. He said that talking to the Association of Japanese Animations won't produce results because the group is made up of affiliate animation production companies. The most you can expect after filing a request is a diplomatic non-answer like "We are looking into the issue."


That's it? Just learn how to negotiate wages and how to deal with contract?
I don't know why these people even bothered to create the association years ago. Granted that JaniCA is not a labor union, but at least they could've done more. They could've set up pre-job screening for animator hopefuls or set up necessary resources to prepare young people to survive the industry. Also they could've help animator(s) with free legal consultation on checking contracts. And the list goes on.

Taking survey is something that could be done by government or trade union as well. Personally I think Inoue can give such advice easily because he is the best animator who can command far better pay due to his skill level and prestige. it's not much different from Hollywood star asking producer to pay more money to talented new actor(s).

Quote:
In reaction to Inoue's tweets, other animators have been speaking up about money matters. Akiko Nakano tweeted that around 40 years ago, in-between animation frames used to pay around 150 yen. She stated that when you take into account the complexity of the drawings these days, then even 600 yen per frame is too low. Even in the past, 150 yen was far too low, so just raising the rates to a comparative level to the past would still be grossly unfair to animators.


I think the industry should just abolish the whole "XXX Yen per sheet" pay system for inbetween drawing and implement limited term contract with proper pay level. If a new guy can't make the cut as key animator in 2 to 3 years, then his contract should be terminated for not improving. That way, he get his money and company get better talents.

Quote:
Even JAniCA, which is an advocacy group for workers in the anime industry, has encountered roadblocks when it comes to creating tangible change at the top level. According to Inoue, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood director and JAniCa representative Yasuhiro Irie submitted a request to hold a conference where animators and companies could freely exchange opinions about improving anime production schedules, but this was ultimately ignored.


Of course management doesn't want to hear such issues because they're painful. From what I read from animator Cindy Yamauchi's old website, some studio heads are opportunists who just want to make quick bucks. Once the money rolls in, some of them use it for personal pleasure than distribute appropriately to workers.
As far as animators are concerned, I think their excuse is that they're too busy. Animators rather use precious time on meeting deadline than spend an hour or two on conference. Animators had the same excuse when Japanese Voice Actors union invited them for labor rally in 90's.

Irie should've push for more forceful method when parties were not cooperating.

Quote:
Inoue noted that structural change won't happen unless there is momentum coming from many different sides. This means that young animators shouldn't feel the need to approach the issue rashly, especially if this can result in them losing work. If the data from the JAniCA report is spread widely and even high-profile voices from around the industry speak up, then those at the top (such as company presidents and production committees) can be convinced. Inoue hopes that if these voices can prompt the Fair Trade Commission and the Small and Medium Enterprise Agency to lay out guidelines, then there will be true momentum.


Janica spent years on producing survey reports and they're just hoping that their reports to spread wider? This is the reason why Inoue and Janica got criticized by certain people for inaction. I understand that Inoue is trying to be cautious, but they dragged their feet too long and they look incompetent.

Even anime director Hiroyuki Morita, former Janica representative and predecessor to Irie, is encouraging animators and other animation creators to form labor union capable of collective bargaining. His Tweet was posted on March 2nd, 2019.

Director/Animator Hirokuki Morita (Cat Returns, Bokurano)
https://twitter.com/Morita626/status/1101873384357486593
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omiya



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 1849
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:24 am Reply with quote
What I have previously suggested to Answerman might still deserve an answer on ANN:

how the Japanese voice actors / actresses ended up getting decent pay.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5504
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:41 am Reply with quote
Ermat_46 wrote:
Oh, you know, have them completely shift to 3D animation.
So their salary would turn from low wages to unemployment. I do not want to imagine how many animators that would put out of work, because 3D animation is an entirely different discipline.
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Frog-kun
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 10 Jun 2017
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:03 am Reply with quote
Just in case it wasn't 100% clear, the Japan Animation Creators Association (JAniCA) and the Association of Japanese Animations are separate organizations.

Although this article just focuses on Inoue, I have been looking into Morita's statements, and I plan to address his criticisms and others in a follow-up article. I am also planning to reach out to JAniCA to hear their side of the story.
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Mrmanga17



Joined: 05 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:17 pm Reply with quote
At this point I think the only way these artists will get the respect they deserve is if all the animators go on strike and demand better pay so they can have better lives. Thing is, strikes in Japan are not that common, and they tend strike in a rather peaceful way sometimes to the absurb; where for example striking busdrivers would give passengers free rides. They are very civilised, too civilised I believe. They should really take stand for themselves as one unit and not just on twitter. I know it is in their culture to not complain and be loyal but there's comes a moment to where you need to put your foot down.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:41 am Reply with quote
Frog-kun wrote:
Just in case it wasn't 100% clear, the Japan Animation Creators Association (JAniCA) and the Association of Japanese Animations are separate organizations.

Although this article just focuses on Inoue, I have been looking into Morita's statements, and I plan to address his criticisms and others in a follow-up article. I am also planning to reach out to JAniCA to hear their side of the story.


Please do that. We have to hear from both sides to fully understand what's really going on.

omiya wrote:
What I have previously suggested to Answerman might still deserve an answer on ANN:
how the Japanese voice actors / actresses ended up getting decent pay.


I don't have definitive answer, but I read somewhere that Japanese voice actors joined local film and TV union and participated in labor rally in 90's.

Quote:
At this point I think the only way these artists will get the respect they deserve is if all the animators go on strike and demand better pay so they can have better lives. Thing is, strikes in Japan are not that common, and they tend strike in a rather peaceful way sometimes to the absurb; where for example striking busdrivers would give passengers free rides. They are very civilised, too civilised I believe. They should really take stand for themselves as one unit and not just on twitter. I know it is in their culture to not complain and be loyal but there's comes a moment to where you need to put your foot down.


How they conduct labor strike is their own, not ours. I think how those Japanese bus drivers conducted their labor strike is worth noting because offering free rides hurts bus company's finance and strike by not working gives bad impression of bus drivers to local general public that rely on bus system for everything from commute to doing chores. Of course, Japanese rely on public transportation far more than Americans.

Japanese animators get respect within the industry, it's merit-based respect than general trade-based. Why isn't Japanese animator get respect like people with normal job? Other than pay level, animators have been treating their animating job like hobby or school project rather than livelihood. For decades, Japanese didn't respect people with such unstable work and animators are not some public figure like TV/Film actors. Anyway, once those young animators get older and want to settle down, their financial reality hits them hard and they leaves the industry. Some people do come back to the industry, but not too many. Animators like Atsushi Wakabayashi, known for his episode direction on Naruto vs Sasuke episode, left the industry for few years and then returned once his personal finance got stabilized. After disenfranchised people leave, the industry finds replacements by recruiting starry-eyed fanboy & fangirl, sometimes Otaku, to fill the ranks. The Cycle repeats again.

Believe or not, a lot of A-list animators have been making a lot more money than lowly inbetweeners. Some Animation Supervisors (Sakuga Kantoku) are also bona-fide A to B-List Animators who are tend to be employed by production companies with regular pays and benefits. More experience and responsibility you have, more pay you receive.

The Biggest Fear among Japanese Animators is that COMPLETE OUTSOURCING of animating jobs to Korea and China. Of course they have been outsourcing some of the works to overseas due to domestic labor shortage, but it's the A and B-List people kept anime look pretty along with hardcore fan support.

Even with AI and computer graphics, it's the individual artist's experience forged through countless drawings that makes anime expressive. Older animators want successors with his/her own unique expression, not some "robot" that traces lines perfectly.

Without right condition and timing, doing labor strike is dangerous and its after-effect irreversible. With high demand for Japanese animation now and committees making high profits and inherent weakness of anime production. I do think that animators have advantages of collective bargaining than predecessors decade ago.
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