Forum - View topicIssues with the end of Saikano ::spoilers alert::
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Ok, I just finished this the other day.
And yeah, I know everyone dies and that it's the end of the world and all, but ugh! That pissed me off!! Basically, it was just such a dark view of humanity-- that no one would step forward to stop the destruction, that Shuuji (and everyone else) is powerless, and that Chise, in the end, could do nothing but kill. Why is she only a weapon? Why not destroy herself, if need be? You know, I guess I was expecting the characters in the show to grow up enough to understand about caring more for others than yourself, but it just didn't turn out that way. Basically Chise and Shuuji end up sacrficing everything else for their love-- like the whole freakin' planet!! 
And then, they try and pass it off as the fact that they just want to live so badly. Of course they do! We all do! But that's not the most important point in life though, oddly enough..... (IMO) I guess, after all the death and high, powerful emotions and mistakes that had been made earlier in the show by many of the character (and it was very well done, really a pretty good show-- I was impressed, all in all...)... but after all that, I guess I just expected that Chise would make a decision that was best for all those people that she loved, rather than herself... and that Shuuji would support her in that, and help her to overcome simply being a weapon. A number of different people in the show kept on saying "It's not their fault, it's not our fault. No one is to blame." BS!! Don't pass the buck, buddie, take some responsibility for your own actions. That's what I had to say-- and I guess that was what I thought Chise and Shuuji were sort of heading for -- that they would take responsiblity for themselves and their actions, when so many other people weren't. Ugh... I dunno. Did anyone else see this in a different way? I didn't mind the whole "everyone dies" thang, it's very much in the vein of other shows like spoiler[Cowboy Bebop or Berserk], so that's not such a new thing to have happen-- just that it was done for what seemed like such selfish reasons that I didn't agree with. And I felt like I was supposed to empathize with Chise and Shuuji, rather than have them be the badguys, so to speak. This was hard for me to do at the end. I just felt like I wanted to scold them or something. I expected more growth, and, it seems to me, that didn't occur. Thus you get a downer ending both plot-wise (i.e. all that death), and philosophically (i.e. why those decisions were made). That bugged me. Of course, all of that is aside from what the ending really meant, with Shujii and Chise in some sort of dream state/alternate world at the end. Which I'd love people's opinions on. Also, as a second small aside, ... oddly enough I really disliked the music. All that power guitar (reminded me of Santana!! ::chuckle:: ) in the high drama moments sort of undercut the emotion for me. Anways, I'd love to get some perspective on the end of this show. You're help is appreciated.  And of course, after all that, I might as well reiterate that YES, I really did like the show, that it was well done, but that I just had major philosophical issues with the choices the characters made at the end. I just wanted to get the "I liked it" bit out there, to sort of temper my rant above.
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor
 Posts: 1390 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Mm, lots of good stuff to discuss here...I only have a few min right now, but I'll read it again later today.
I didn't think it was a matter of "stepping forward" to stop the destruction--in that sense they were both powerless to keep humanity from destroying itself. (So they didn't sacrifice the planet for their love.) I know that screams anti-war theme, but I thought the whole war backdrop was just part of their setting--they weren't supposed to stop it.
Actually, I think it is the most important part, and finding that will to live was one of the ways both characters developed during the story. Remember when Chise asked Tetsu to kill her? She wouldn't have done that by the end of the show.
Again, I don't think it was a matter of accepting responsibility. The weapon thing was just the card Chise was delt, and it was up to her and Shuuji to figure out how to life despite it. She couldn't "overcome" being a weapon.
You know you like Santana... ^_^ On another note...what did you think of the end of episode 12? I still can't figure out the part where Chise doesn't remember anything. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I agree that the war was really simply a backdrop for their relationship, but it also defines it-- there love couldn't really exist the way it is, without the war occuring. And as for whether they could stop the war-- there I disagree. I think that Chise was obviously a critical piece in the war, and that the enemy was coming to Hokkaido becuase she was there. She even asks, "Are they coming for me?" My point is that if she had blown herself up or died without killing, I think that would have been a major step towards ending the war, and thus the extinction of all the rest of humanity. I said--
And Miagi said--
Ah, well, there we perhaps disagree on a philosphical level. I guess, to me, life is a very temporary thing. I agree that it is obviously deeply important to find that will to live, and I think it was a good thing for Chise to find it. I simply felt that it would have been more true and heartfelt if she had decided not to kill and had died, after she understood how precious life was. In the end, I just felt it selfish to sacrifice everything else for ones own life. Of course, this is dependent on one believing that she could have prevented the war by "killing herself"/ blowing herself up/ slowly passing away from not killing anymore. Miagi said--
Well, I guess... to me, it seemed that her being a weapon was really secondary to her being human, and that fighting that was what the show was really all about... for a long time anyways (until the end). I just felt like she gave into being a killer, in order to keep living. Which is maybe what the show is really about -- that metaphorically, we are all killers in a way and can't get around that sin. I dunno. To me, that is a very dark statement, that I am not sure I agree with. I guess I just felt like I was rooting for her to overcome that "weapon" aspect of herserlf, but that she gave into it in the end. I was disappointed in her. But then, I guess I thought she had a choice. Oh, and I think Chise doesn't remember anything in ep 12 at first, because she has become more of a machine than a human... and those things have ebbed away. Then, as she talks to Shuuji, it all starts to come back, and then she becomes more "human" for a while again. That was my take on it anyways. |
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rektagunn
 Posts: 218 Location: enohana |
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This is my take on this. The series itself starts off with the premise of a war-torn, depressing world that comes close to losing all hope. This was shown by the fact that only Shuji's region (around Sapporo?) was practically the only region left standing due to the war between the two (or more) sides. Therefore, if Chise killed / sacrificed herself, then I could foresee a number of things happening, although I won't venture into too much speculation. The world environment in the series gave me the impression that each side was hell-bent in destruction and blind towards the negative outcomes / utility of their acts (again, I'm getting this from the implied references to the fact that more than half of the world was destroyed). This whole sense of despair suggests that it wouldn't have mattered if Chise killed / sacrificed herself (i.e. that the war would have continued anyway, etc., etc.). At least, that's how I saw it.
Yep. It sure broke my heart seeing Chise struggle to become human, only to end up using her god-like machine powers in the end. But in the words of Batman (hang-on, I'm going somewhere with this  ): "not everything ends in happy endings" (or something like that). Frankly, the sad parts of the series are the same ones that make it powerful.
On another note, I came upon a website on Saikano with some views on the ending part of it. I found it interesting since other people placed a positive spin on the ending. the main website is: http://individual.utoronto.ca/gfx/saikano/home.htm and the interpretations on the ending (both in regards to the manga and the anime--so spoilers abound) are located in: http://pub9.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=747947436&cpv=1 just browse through and look for topics referring to the ending. |
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CorneredAngel
 Posts: 854 Location: New York, NY |
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I've never been comfortable with Saikano, even though, for the first couple of weeks after I saw it, I was very impressed with the production. Most of my discomfort comes down to a development of the argument Robert Ellison makes in "The Globalization of Apocalyptic Literature" [1]. In a sense, very little of what happens throughout the series is to be taken literally, and everything, the death, the destruction, the End, are merely background for Chise and Shuuji accepting reality and the fact that falling in love is *not* extraordinary or somehow important in the long run: it's what people have been doing for as long as there have been people, and there is nothing unique about the two of them - therefore, nothing to be afraid of. I know this is a rather radical approach, but I would argue that "cataclysmic fictions" (to use the term suggested by Dewey to define writings that specifically describe the End of All Things) [2] are a fairly common genre of anime, but whereas in the West, such fictions (Heinlein: Year of the Jackpot, Shute: On The Beach) in fact revel in descriptions of the end - and serve primarily as warnings, Japanese popular culture seems to primarily use the apocalypse as metaphor, as is most clearly evident in Evangelion.
In any case, Saikano tries to be more than just cheap disposable entertainment...but the same point could have been made, and perhaps far more effectively, had the SF and eschatological trappings been left out of the picture entirely. And while that, of course, would have made it completely different story - more KareKano than Saikano - I think it would have made the story far better... Sources: 1. Ellison, Robert. The Globalization of Apocalyptic Literature (http://faculty.etbu.edu/rellison/glbltext.htm) 2. Dewey, Joseph. In a Dark Time: The Apocalyptic Temper in the American Novel of the Nuclear Age West Lafayette: Purdue University Press, 1990 |
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor
Posts: 1390 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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...so why would the show have been better without the death and destruction? Because that's too common of a metaphor? I don't follow.
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CorneredAngel
Posts: 854 Location: New York, NY |
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a) yes, and b) at least in my view, "death and destruction" are a bit too *real* to be thrown around at will and used as metaphors for anything. *Especially* something as relatively trite as growing up... |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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So you're saying you'd have preferred Saikano be another lame, castrated, pointless, bland romantic dramedy about two people with zero personality who fall in love, and maybe the girl shows her panties. It amazes me Mikhail how you can show this incredible intellect you have, and yet, can honestly reccommend that a show as brilliant and affecting as Saikano should have what makes it special (Incidentally, the show is also about war. Take the war part out and you're gutting the series.) removed. You're suggesting that they should have lobotomized the show and brought it down to the trashy level of every other pile of shonen romance crapola out there. How you can say that a show that DOES have depth and substance like Saikano is bad but a show that has ZERO substance like Mahoromatic is genius is totally beyond me. Thank god you weren't on the production staff. -Z |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Perhaps it is true that the whole "war" thang going on is a side issue to the real interpersonal going ons....
If so, that seems like a bad storytelling decision in my mind. I find nothing wrong with telling a story with the war as a backdrop, but well,..... the war is deeply central to Saikano, and I still feel that Chise is very very central to the war effort, and therefore the outcome of the war itself is central to the story. It's one thing to tell a story like ... Platoon or Full Metal Jacket, set during war time, but not necessarily about the outcome of the war, versus say.... Patton or a movie about a person dropping the bomb-- those would be circumstances where the person's personal decisions are affecting the entire outcome of the war, and thus the war's outcome becomes important and central to the story in a general way. I guess I am still unconvinced that Chise couldn't have affected the outcome differently. The earthquake she speaks of, that will rip the planet apart, I really assumed that that earthquake (and the others before it) was coming from her, and her fighting. The problem for me wasn't that everyone that we knew was dying (although that sucks too), it's more the destruction of the whole planet that bothered me. Does anyone have a take on the earthquakes?? That might help clarify things better. I have to agree that, well, if the war is simply some sort of metaphor.. I find that too.... drastic of a metaphor. And frankly, the way they show it... well, it doesn't come off as a metaphor-- you're watching people die, and the tidal wave coming, etc. etc. It's emotionally scarring in a certain way. I just thing when you start doing that, that well, it starts to move beyond the function of being a metaphor. Of course, that could be based on cultural differences. Perhaps Japanese viewers aren't as disturbed by the ending as we were? Of course, that is more a rhetorical question..... |
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Zeiram
 Posts: 317 |
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Alright, great debate going on here. I won't quote anyone, but here's my speculation.
Do keep in mind, I'm a writer with a mind that never seems to stop thinking and coming up with things so I might be reaching here. I've no knowledge of the manga version's take on it, but I'm guessing it's similar if not only more graphic. So the earthquakes coming from her? interesting. I had thought that the war being so lightly touched on (liek the political dynamics and details pervaying) may be filled in like this. First of all the enemy found in the mountains can be assumed to be an american, at least brittish. For all argument's sake he posed as such from speaking english. Japan is an ally to america now and a great trade partner in a lot of matters, but to have them up against us as such? (the amount of firepower thrown at Japan also makes ya think of the good ol Americans) I'm not sure what could cause this percisely, but if the whole world is at war against the united states, that makes more sense (sorry, I feel the states are arrogant to say the least, maybe the creators did too) so like what technologies do we have that would allows us an advantage in an all out war? I had thought maybe the earthquakes weren't natural such as you've mentioned, but the differerence here is, the americans are using the technology on other countries one way or another. One weapon of mass destruction (great tag line for viz hehe to think such a war farse could lead to more advertising of a series, but come to think of it, I can't wait for the people of the states to watch this heheheh, war what is it good for!? x_X) er got off track, one weopon of mass destruction against another, sounds logical to me. One won't be handed over from either side so annihilation continues. Peace talks failed as well. That kinda shows that Japan ain't much better than the states as far as polotics and militarism goes. Anyone ever think this could be a recreation of world war 2? |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Re: the earthquakes-- I went to site given for the Saikano forums, and in the manga, the earthquakes are more.... obviously caused by Chise in it. I thought it rather obvious that they were caused by her in the anime, particularly with her comments about them in the last ep., and how she knows so much about them (how they'll be so big that they'll destroy the planet, etc.).... but obviously others don't think it so explicit. I know that adaptations are just that, adaptations, and thus have differences from the source material, but I thought the fact that the manga backed up my perspective on the earthquakes gave a little more weight to the opinion. Still... it is more ambiguous in the anime, I suppose. I'll have to go watch that section again.
As for the WW II thing-- IMO soooo much in Japan is still very affected by it. I've often thought Macross has lots of interesting paralells as well ("giants" invading, alien culture, destruction of the planet... etc. etc.), but that's a topic for another day. |
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CorneredAngel
Posts: 854 Location: New York, NY |
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Yes, yes I am. Because real life tends to be "lame, castrated, pointless, bland"...and I'm a bit tired of eye candy shows that have nothing to do with what *I* have to deal with. At one point, sure, anime (and SF, and fantasy) was all about escapism, but what I'm looking for now is things that show people I can identify with dealing with problems and issues I can relate to. Which Saikano very definitely is not. In of itself, from the purely technical standpoint, it's not bad by any means. But to be good, anime has to be more than technically impressive, it has to be *relevant* to something. Hell, at its heart, Saikano is *not* too different from any other "shonen romance crapola", whether Japanese or American. Why? Because the problems of growing up and dealing with adolescence are universal. Saikano tries to complicate matters and pretend to depth that just ain't there. Writing about one of the Overfiend movies, Napier claims that it's "finally not so much about sexuality as it is about the transgressive nature of growing up and the iniquity of the parental generation.” No, no it isn't. It's about the Nazi Death Rape Machine, or whatever that thing was called, and sex, lots of it. Likewise, Saikano's pretense of depth only makes the shallowness more obvious. And, in a way, slights films that *do* actually approach the meaning of war and the meaning of service in war.
No need for that. Gainax seems to be doing fun enough on their own ^_^ (::rewatches first episode of KonoMini...for about the fifth time in two days x_X::) |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"No need for that. Gainax seems to be doing fun enough on their own
 (::rewatches first episode of KonoMini...for about the fifth time in two days x_X:"
I watched Konomini and was depressed that Gainax seems to have finally given up on making original or interesting shows and are now simply dumping out fanservice-laden BS. KonoMini reminded me of... well.. I think nearly every other anime series ever. -Z |
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Zeiram
Posts: 317 |
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Alright, so my reaching was just that, thought I make the war more understandable. I suppose the WWII thing still works as far as the backdrop.
So now I agree (not to disuade my enjoyment of the series) it would of been better if she did allow herself to die either by her hands or by her lovers hands at that one special moment. No matter the true meaning of the series, this version would of grabbed at the heart more i think. But then again, love is an insanity and foolish beyond belief, never a bad thing. Then again in this case it was at the expence of the whole world so it became a bad thing for everyone else. They would love enough to make the world fade away whether or not the war would of destroyed it anyways. It's hard telling if her death would of ended the war, but save for creating some additional situation, yeah this works best. So the lesson from the series? Seems to me it's that war is bad, loving a nuke is bad, loving too much is bad for others (of course only an extensive situation like this) . And people should go out with people closer to their height j/k |
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miu
 Posts: 63 Location: Denver, CO |
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Well it is anime, it's mostly metaphor. The surreal quality of the war, the washed out backgrounds, 'story in story in story in...' narration style, the dialogue constantly ready to break into tears, fatalism, and unexplained matter of putting the last hope of the nation on a high school girl all make for a story that is not meant to be taken as a literal tale of what happened. There were times when I'm sure the story as told was what Shuji wished he had done or said.
I think it is meant to make as much sense as a story by PKD or Pynchon, enjoy it - but accept that even the author may have not fully decided on the reality or meaning of any portion of it. |
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