Forum - View topicHow much is too much?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Lately I've noticed a trend in anime and anime fans, and it disturbs me.
Anime is slowly becoming more and more excessive. We have shows now that pander to every possible fetish, sexual and non-sexual; shows whose entire purpose is to be cute, or violent, or exploitative. We have shows like Ikki Tousen, which is basically just large-breasted girls beating the snot out of eachother. We have shows like Mao-chan, which are incredibly pointless and insipid, but are 'cute' from a design standpoint. Shows like Najica and Gunslinger Girl and A Tiny Snow Fairy Sugar and Mahoromatic and Hanaukyo Maid Tai that have zero intelligence behind them. Shows that don't challenge you at all. Shows that don't even have coherent storylines. Shows with flat, one-dimensional characters, poor animation, and miserable acting. Criticize any one of these shows and you're attacked by the fans for 'not understanding' that you're supposed to enjoy the show because it's 'supposed to be just fun and you're thinking too much'. Excuse me, when did thinking become a problem? When is excess too much? It's okay to consume something as a guilty pleasure, but it seems that more and more often these days, anime is mostly a guilty pleasure and the 'smart' or 'good' shows are few and far between. If I have to sift through countless Love Hinas to find one Saikano, what's the point? Are we becoming complacent, eager to masturbate to whatever pointless tripe is next because it's 'fun'? When does 'fun' end and 'bad' begin? Is it okay to even criticize anime anymore? What's the point, if you just have to excuse everything that's wretched because it's apparently SUPPOSED to be wretched? I was curious to know what everyone else's take on this was. I've seen too much pap lately and it's starting to get to me. |
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LW
 Posts: 26 Location: finalsavepoint.com |
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Well I'll acually have to disagree with your assentment. Fan serivce has been rapid in the anime world for decades. This is nothing new, and a little fan service never hurt anyone like with Full Metal Panic. Though I do agree that some anime's take it way too far, but you don't have to watch it then. Some people have different interests and sometimes don't want another Evangelion to watch.
I could take your argument and twist it around and say that there has been way too many Eva clones that take themselves way too seriously at times, like with Brain Power'd or RahXephon. Some times I want something relaxing to watch that I don't have to watch it 5 or more times just to understand it, like with End of Evangelion (heck, I still don't understand it fully and I don't think that anyone besides Anno does). Take a look at the anime market in Japan right now. Anime series like Air Master (a heaping trash pile of fanservice) aren't the series with the top ratings. The series that get the most attention and are being produced more are anime titles like Full Metal Alchemist, Scrapped Princess, and Peace Maker Kurogane. I find that there are less anime titles with rapid fan serivce which is a good thing. And again there are different genres for a reason. Some people like them and some people don't. Thats not saying I like the anime series that Zac listed, and still think they're bad. 
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Vigilante024
 Posts: 578 Location: back. but not really. |
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I agree with Zac, though I've noticed this trend in almost everything in the media lately (hello, reality TV)...and I know I'm being pessimistic, but I seriously think that the intelligence level of humanity is decreasing...I mean to like a POC show and know that it is a POC show is one thing, but to proclaim a very one dimensional show as being so great and "deep" is just ridiculous. Alot of anime and shows have just been turned into simple visual stimulation with very little substance and the mindless masses are eating it up...now I'm not saying that all anime has to have substance or that all fluff is bad, because quite frankly I do enjoying just turning something on and not having to think every now and then, but if I see an anime and feel lile my IQ has dropped due to watching it, then I feel that it was a waste of time and money.
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Swordfish_II
 Posts: 617 |
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You know reality TV is out of control when a science FICTION channel has about two of them. Hopefully someday soon people will grow brains and realize all these reality shows are pure drech. "My Big Fat Obnoxiuos Fiancé"? Is FOX run by monkeys? |
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Legato 2057
 Posts: 437 Location: Soon to be Japan |
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I don't have a problem with someone watching a mindless anime, even if that person watches it a lot. My problem is when that is all a person watches, and yet they say they are anime fans when in fact they only know about a small portion of the medium.
Last edited by Legato 2057 on Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kamiboy
 Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. If all anime was made to cater to the taste of only one single individual then I'm sure it would die a violent and quick death. The reason why there are so many different kinds of shows is because people are different and so is their interpretation of what is entertaining.
Just because you don't like shows that doesn't challenge you intellectually doesn't mean that those shows are wrong. As long as even one person is entertained by a show then its creation has been justified. Entertainment isn't about what is right or wrong or what you like or don't but about what the majority likes. If reality shows and anime with excessive fan service exist it is because a lot of people want to watch them and when they don't they will go away. You shouldn't complain that not enough of your favourite kinds of anime are being made; such a complaint is invalid and useless. Instead you should be happy that amidst the so-called garbage heap even you can find a few titles that cater to your taste. Entertainment and education are two different things even though you can find the odd combination. People don’t seek entertainment to increase their IQ and I doubt that anyone loses IQ by watching something stupid. Education however is meant to increase your IQ and is rarely very entertaining. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Well, for starters, I wholeheartedly agree that idiocy is on the rise in television. I could've told everybody that the moment Survivor aired. Television was once an escape from everyday life, now it's a voyeur's paradise where we get to laugh at our neighbors every night at prime time.
As far as the recent rise in fanservice, I don't know if it's time to throw up the warning flares and say "it's getting out of hand" but there is definitely a lot of it about. What annoys me more, though, is how bloody similar the characters all look. You can't tell one character designer from the next in these shows. I'm sorry, but while anyone can say "Oh, that's a Matusmoto woman, that chick's one of Sonoda's, and that's a Fujishima girl." I defy anyone to point out the individual styles of the character creators with these new girls. That's one of the reason there's still charm to the older show. Masaki Kajishima and Kousuke Fujishima and all the others created instantly recognizable characters with their own individual styles and traits. These new ones, feh, all the same set of t*ts. |
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Aaron White
Old Regular
Posts: 1365 Location: Birmingham, Alabama |
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Complaining that there's suddenly stupidity on TV is like complaining that there's suddenly hypocrisy in churches. TV has always been, as Neil Gaiman put it, a dungheap full of diamonds; treasures hidden in the trash.
It's ironic that Zac posted this the day after I bought my first issue of Anime Insider. I was frustrated by it. It has some smart articles and clever humor, but it's plagued by the same hype-machine editorial policy that makes the whole Wizard line part of the problem in my eyes. I don't mean this as a personal attack on Zac or anyone involved in the magazine. I don't question that you do your very best to raise the bar within the mag, but it's still a glass house. |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4534 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I like pointless fun and I don't even call those anime "guilty pleasures" because I think any reason why I enjoy somehting is equally as valid (aside from, maybe, enjoying something because it's so bad that it's unintentionally funny) and I'll take "pointless fun" over something that takes itself far too seriously almost any day of the week. Not that I don't like some anime with serious artistic merit, like Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou or Millenium Actress or Haibane Renmei, but, for me to like something like that it has to appeal to me on some deep personal level and not because critics call it a "masterpiece".
However, for pure subtext-free "pointless fun", nothing being produced today that I've seen is on the level of Urusei Yatsura or Project A-Ko or even just the level of the original All-Purpose Cultural Cat Girl Nuku Nuku OVA series. Not that there aren't recent fun things I like, like Super GALS!, but that's a different variety of fun, with a slightly more serious subtext. I like it if they only sprinkle a show with fan service and leave the constant fan service to the doujins. |
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mahoro
 Posts: 310 |
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I agree Zac, anime companies are creating anime that is catering to audiences often with excess. Since we know this and since you do not enjoy and/or appreciate these anime series with “zero intelligence behind them. Shows that don’t challenge you at all”, I suggest that you do not watch them. Watching anime is highly subjective and perhaps remembering that will help you accept this.
IMHO, unless you choose to watch these types of animated shows or feature films, knowing full well that the INTENTION(s) of the creators may or may not be for mere retinal stimulation of the viewers, and you can ACCEPT this, do not watch the anime. I do not say this to be rude or disrespectful to you or anyone else, but if the anime is something that does not speak to you, do not watch it. You always have a CHOICE to watch whatever you want to. Most anime is not created for adult audiences. Anime companies know this and create shows that can appeal to a WIDE variety of audiences, age groups and interests. Not everything Gainax (or any other studio) creates will necessarily “challenge you” or stimulate your mind, most of the time anime is not created for this purpose. That is not to say I personally do not enjoy mature themes in anime. I for one do enjoy anime series the most, especially if that investigate the depths of the human mind/soul and ultimately breathe fresh ideas when exploring the full range of human emotions. But, not everyone wants this and I bet the studios realize this. IMO, generally, the vast majority of anime viewers do not want what you described, such as “thinking films” or animated features that incorporate mature themes such as philosophy, theology, science, etc., this their choice to watch it, and yours not to. I know some of the anime series you listed and I agree most are senseless, or merely funny with grade school character and plot developments. So? Anime encompasses so many genres and there is includes overlap, i.e. not every shojo series will be appropriate for you, even if you generally exclusive watch shojo. You wrote, “When is excess too much”? IMO when you the viewer say it is too much. Only you know what is right for you, I firmly believe as with most things in life, the onus is on the consumer to research what they want to watch and what is most appropriate given their age and intersts. If the consumer/viewer is too young to do so, then their parents should be actively involved in their leisure activities/hobbies. You wrote, “If I have to sift through countless Love Hinas to find one Saikano, what's the point? Are we becoming complacent, eager to masturbate to whatever pointless tripe is next because it's 'fun'? When does 'fun' end and 'bad' begin?” The point is THIS is what the industry in Japan is willing to create for their markets, it is what they believe will do well. We may not like what people in Japan like and vice versa, but, ultimately we can choose not to participate in the “pointless tripe”. IMO what you are asking is completely subjective and only you know what is right and only you can determine your level of involvement; if you do not want to support certain “types” of anime, do not. You wrote, “Is it okay to even criticize anime anymore?” Open discussion that offers insightful criticism (without ad hominems), IMO always has a place and meaningful purpose. However, if you are advocating companies should change their themes or the types of anime people are complacent to watch, it is not going to happen. You and I are not representative of the majority of anime viewers/consumers in Japan or in the USA. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"You always have a CHOICE to watch whatever you want to."
That's incorrect, in my case. I have to watch everything. It's my job. Go look at most of ANN's most recent reviews. I wrote them. I didn't want to watch a lot of that stuff, but I did. I was pleasantly surprised by some, and sickened by others. I wish I could choose what I saw all the time, but such is not the life of a media journalist. We have to swallow everything. People expect us to. A lot of you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. Big time. I am NOT SAYING that all anime needs to be intelectually challenging or artistic or deep. I like a fun show as much as the next guy; I'm big fan of Naruto, One Piece, Kenshin... heck, even Slam Dunk, Marmalade Boy and Hana Yori Dango are some of my favorites, and those are pretty paper-thin. What I'm saying is, the excess seems to have gotten worse and what used to be 'fun' is now flat-out 'bad'. I kinda liked the 'cute' shows back when they were more like Risky/Safety and Tenshi Ni Narumon and less like Mao-chan or Pita-ten. Do you get what I'm saying now? Stuff seems to be totally relying on the look, scrapping decent writing for excess. |
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mahoro
Posts: 310 |
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Well Zac, I was replying to you as a fellow consumer not as a journalist. My slant if you will applies to consumers, not people who have not watch everything, regardless if they personally would not show the anime series to another living being.
Also, I agree with you on how it seems that "the excess seems to have gotten worse and what used to be 'fun' is now flat-out 'bad'." Sadly this is true, but what can we do considering these titles were originally created for Japanese audiences? 
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Legato 2057
Posts: 437 Location: Soon to be Japan |
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Post removed after sleep
Last edited by Legato 2057 on Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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As far as anime becoming too excessive, I would have to agree, but also say that it applies to television worldwide. Like others have said, television in general is becoming more simplistic & stupid as the majority audience becomes similarly simple-minded and easier to please.
But while I do have to agree that there is more mediocre or bad anime being made these days, allow me to try my hand at Devil's Advocate for a second. Perhaps it merely seems as though there are more crappy anime today than yesterday, because we look back at the "good old days" with rose-coloured glasses. We remember all the classics like Macross, Gundam, Lupin, Maison Ikkoku, Evangelion, etc., but we don't remember the really awful stuff that was made back then, which likely outnumbered the good anime even in that day & age. All that older crap is likely not getting licensed for domestic distribution as much, either, whereas the new crap is practically licensed right as it rolls off the assembly line, which adds to the "rose-coloured glasses" approach to days gone by. Add to that the fact that an incresing number anime are produced with each passing year. More anime come out this year than the last, more anime came out last year than the year before, etc. So while the number of well-crafted, excellent anime is probably remaining constant, there're ever more fluff titles that one must work around to obtain it. |
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lianncoop
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 1705 Location: Indiana |
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I'm not sure if disagree or agree. I really don't think the point of the thread is to agree or disagree, but whatever.
I can see where Zac is coming from, there is quite a bit of mindless, fan-servicey anime out there. But, you could apply this to anything out there...regular television, music, movies, video games. I see it as a trend. I think the market will get flooded with what it thinks the general populace wants and after so much, it'll backfire. Quality over quantity, that is what I say. I dunno, give it some time, fans will eventually start getting bored with the same cookie-cutter, brainless stuff and some of the series with some personality will be licensed. 'Till then, I guess we'll have to sift through some of the junk to find that diamond in the rough. |
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