Forum - View topicMacross Plus Movie Edition by Manga
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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I suppose it's already on the stores now. Release date was May 28.
Here's what Manga says about it: Shoji Kawamori's critically acclaimed Macross Plus is one of the most expensive and respected anime films ever produced. Originally created as a 4-part Original Video Animation series, this masterful story featuring world-class animation was taken back to the drawing board and rearranged as a 'feature film' with 20 minutes of new animation integrated under the supervision of the director himself. The Movie Edition includes a breathtaking new opening sequence, new scenes that further clarify the relationships between key characters, plus a dramatic new ending featuring extended footage of the haunting concert given by the film's virtual pop star, Sharon Apple. The end result is a film which spectacularly conveys the Director's vision while infusing striking new elements into the gripping story. DVD SPECIAL FEATURES: JAPANESE LANGUAGE 5.1 Surround with English Subtitles Stereo with English Subtitiles Character Bios Photo Gallery Macross Plus Trailers Manga Previews DVD Catalog Web Links |
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Hagakure
Posts: 111 Location: Connecticut |
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I take it you are a big Macross fan, skullone. What do you think of Robotech?
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Seriously, I prefer not to think about it. Comparing it to even the worst fansubs and dubs of Macross, watching Robotech for more than 2 minutes is quite disturbing to me.
Actually, it's a piece of plagiarism (no mention of Big West or Studio Nue in its credits), with a problematic storyline, BAD voice acting, horrible song lyrics and performances, boring soundtrack arrangements and an ad nauseam repetition of an all-too American "We Will Win" plot - pointless war after pointless war, oversimplified character descriptions... Sorry, I'm accustomed to far better quality productions. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10455 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I wonder if you can call it plagiarism if they had permission? BW & HG aren't the best of friends these days, but BW was okay with everything at the time. The exact definition of plagiarism varies from place to place. One definition I have found states "without permission or citations", suggesting that if permission or citaion is present then it isn't plagiarism. Other definitions make no mention of permission and states somthing along the line of "To present the ideas or words of another as one's own"(websters). This is the most common definition, but would it make Robotech Plagiarism? There's a slight, but important difference between omitting credit, and taking credit. No where in the credits for Robotech will you find something along the lines of Animation: Harmony Gold. In fact, in many industries, when someone modifies someone elses creation and asks permission, the permission is often given provided the original creator's name is not attached to the modified version. Considering the general consensus that Robotech is so inferior to Macross, perhaps its best for BW and Nue not to have their names any where in the credits? Robotech is a touchy issue, but I find that there is a tendancy amongst Macross fans to exagerate. HG didn't steal from BW, they purchased the rights to do what they did. (there is a lot of discussion about what else those rights included, but no disagreement about the fact that HG had the right to create Robotech from Macross material). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about Robotech (Hack Job, or Improvement, or anything in between), and there tends to be a concensus that Robotech was inferior to the original, but it is subjective opinion, and people tend to forget that. My personal opinion? Robotech isn't that great, it's typical juvenile kids fare exactly as you described, "problematic storyline, BAD voice acting, horrible song lyrics and performances, boring soundtrack arrangements and an ad nauseam repetition of an all-too American "We Will Win" plot - pointless war after pointless war, oversimplified character descriptions". And Macross? Better, but still juvenile, impressive for a commercial product created for kids, but not impressive at all on a literrary level. A D for Robotech and a C for Macross. Macross' claims to fame are Robotech and other elemets of the Macross series which are far superior to the original television series... B and B+ stuff. |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10455 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Another note on plagiarism: Most articles about plagirism, including most school rules recommend that you ask the original author how they want the material credited. This implies that if they don't want it credited to them you have to comply.
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Exactly. Which HG didn't do. BW was totally unaware of what HG was doing to Macross. Carl Macek said in his interview to Akadot that the original Macross creative team was supportive of his actions... Is this why Kawamori was enraged when he first saw Robotech during a trip of his to the states a VERY few years back?
I suggest you visit MacrossWorld and check with the information about this whole issue. It'll give you some further insight. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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I'm not a terribly large fan of either Robotech or Macross (except for Macross Plus, which rocks your face), but I will give Robotech a bit of credit. They omitted the COMPLETELY RETARDED idea that Minmei's croonin' FILLED THE ZENTRAEDI'S HEARTS WITH JOY and stopped an intergalactic war.
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Hagakure
Posts: 111 Location: Connecticut |
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Well I've only seen the first five episodes of Robotech and I was looking for a second opinion if I should continue to buy DVDs for the series. I can vaugely remember it on TV (If I remember correctly) and I picked it up to see what all the nostalgia was about.
I didn't realize there was that much contoversy surrounding BW and HG. I remember someone saying that HG was confiscating imports here in the US, but that was about the worst I heard. |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10455 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I take Carl Macek with a grain of salt just like you... actually, I take everyone with a grain of salt, including Kawamori. Kawamori may not have known how extensive the changes were, but there's no way that he would have been completely unaware of the changes that were made. Perhaps that was the first time that he saw them first hand, but word of the changes would have reached him long before. I do feel for the guy, as a creator I would hate to have someone else change my work in any significant way, it would be even worse if I felt they made a hack job out of it. In fact as a writer I really hate having my articles edited by other people, even though they are in fact improving them... But, Kawamori isn't the only single person behind Macross, and whether it was with his knowledge and/or blessing or not, Someone sold HG the rights to make changes. As for visiting Macross world... I do, regularly (when dealing with Macross issues)... Its a great site (really, one of the best series dedicated resource sites around). But when it comes to anything about Robotech, I take die hard Macross fans with a chunk of salt. |
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Ataru
 Posts: 2327 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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I don't know about most of you, but I have grown up watching Robotech with it started on NBC all those many years ago. At the time I was 6 and I didn't care for how well it was dubbed, the songs (My mom taped me dancing to it for the love it all.), or a simply thing like a plot, I just liked it. And now that I'm 23, after founding out it actullay Macross for US TV, I still really didn't care, because for me, it's still a piece of my childhood (That and Garfield on TV, he friggn' rocked.
 )
Now, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. 
Last edited by Ataru on Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Are you sure you watched Macross? This is a misconception. First of all, Minmay did NOT sing any joyful song during that battle. She sang "Ai Wa Nagareru", a very sad anti-war song, which can bring tears in your eyes even if you don't understand Japanese. So, it was a sort of emotional manipulation. Second, Minmay's song was used to cause confusion in the communications. Imagine trying to coordinate your fleet's actions and only hearing music! These two elements evaded Macek - he couldn't understand it, so he nixed it. Oh well, such is his "talent". |
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Ramen
 Posts: 346 Location: San Jose |
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Wait a sec... I watched both Robotech and Macross. In both series, Minmay's songs were used to confuse the Zentradi. Songs were unknown to the Zentradi and was shocking to them. It shocks them in the same way kissing, male/female interaction, etc does. This is what they used the songs for in both Macross and Robotech ... or so I thought. I have never heard about the "filling the Zentradi hearts with joy" argument, nor have i heard the "confusion by breaking down comunications" argument. Where did you hear this from? |
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nagash
Posts: 280 |
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Why am I not surprised to find the macross/robotech fight going on in here.
For most of us old-timers, Robotech was the newest thing on the market back in the 80's. Unless you lived in Hawaii or California, you did not have any anime stores and comic books shops were not big on manga. Thus, Robotech was the cartoon of the decade. Most of us found out later (via the LD section at the local video stores) about Macross. Even then, all they had was DYRL, not the original episodes. I've seen DYRL (both versions) and I've seen all of Robotech. I view them as two completely different stories. There are many similarities between the two (mecha, characters) but the overall plots are not the same. The story and art were changed to the point of non-existence. They had to create a different story in order to air it over here. Thus, you have two different anime, each to be looked at separately. I make no argument against HG making Robotech out of Macross. I also make no argument against HG having bought the rights to the original Macross series (they do not own the rights to DYRL as Animeigo is in a legal battle with other companies over those). If Big West did not want this to happen, they should not have sold the rights in the first place. If you hate Robotech because you consider it a rip-off of Macross, I refer you to the above sentence. There's nothing you can do about it. If you hate Macross because you consider Robotech to be the true story, then you too are in err. They are different stories, each to be admired or hated on their own merits. They are not the same. I will agree that I find the news about HG attempting to stop Macross merchandise imports is disturbing. Then again, I'm not having any trouble finding Macross merchandise. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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It's not a breaking down of communications, but instead cluttering every frequency with Minmay's songs. It can easily be inferred that this would cause great confusion in the communications, because they'd have too much "noise", covering their efforts to communicate with each other. Nagash, you seem to ignore the developments between BW and Tatsunoko. Tatsunoko sold things it could not sell, HG did things behind BW's back etc. As for Robotech being the cartoon of the decade, it depends on where you were. In Greece, the cartoons of the '80s were the dub of Candy Candy, the subtitle of the German dub to Heidi of the Alps, the dub of Captain Harlock (the TOEI original, not HG's BS), Thunderbirds 2086 and two great French cartoon series, one of which being "Ulysse 31". Robotech was only available on video and then, after 1989, we saw it on the British satellite channel "Super Channel", as well as some regional Greek channels (i.e. NOT of nation-wide coverage), which, incidentally, only showed the Macross Saga in its entirety (proof that this was RT's only strong point), with sporadic appearances of various, out-of-sequence, episodes from the Robotech Masters and the New Generation. Now, there IS a problem with HG making RT out of Macross, SC and Mospeada, as it basically covered up these three series and did not provide them to the public in their original form. I don't understand why on earth the western world cannot see the original series, simply because HG needed more than 65 episodes for the American TV stations. TV stations in Europe don't go for 85-episode features, unless they're soap operas - and RT is close to being one, due to the cliché nature of its Americanised script. But, when it comes to cartoons, it's far more likely for European stations to go for 26 or 36-episode series, as they have a far smaller risk. So, with HG's actions, Europe missed a chance to access one great anime (Macross), one good (Mospeada) and one not quite as good (Southern Cross). While I'll agree to the fact that nothing can be done about Robotech's existence, any discriminating anime enthusiast cannot help but see the failings of Robotech. Right now, I'm 25 and even nostalgia cannot help Robotech remain in my favorite series. Watching its episodes again, be they in English or dubbed in Greek, is painful to me, mostly for the voice acting, the dialogues, the obnoxious narrator - who happens to see things that simply are NOT there, not even implied (see Rick Hunter developing feelings towards Lisa Hayes after he rescued her on Mars - where did the narrator get that from? ) and the repetitious and generic background music - not to mention Reba West's ear-shredding vocals. I have to say that watching DYRL after 2 minutes of ANY Robotech episode is a great relief to me. Also, HG's actions and claims to ownership of all things Macross are legally invalid and perfectly unethical and it's good to see that other people agree to this. In any case, though, I did not mean to start a RT vs Macross war. There can be no such thing, as RT cannot claim to be anime; using anime footage to create a series that bears the numerous American stereotypes does not an anime make, period. What I wanted to do was provide news on Macross, which is rarely covered outside of MacrossWorld. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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That is true, but if I remember correctly, wasn't that just one of the tertiary effects? Granted, I have not seen either Robotech or Macross for quite some time, but as I remember Robotech clearly made the point that love was the key to defeating the Zentradi's attack. After seeing their reaction to Minmei's music the very first time, it seems only logical that even Robotech-only fans would see the romantic aspect as the main purpose of the braodcast of her song during the space battle.
Uhhh... According to pretty much everything I've read, Harmony Gold wasn't under any fire at all. They said right after the decision was released that their license wouldn't be effected, and that their product releases would continue as planned. And the things Harmony Gold did to Macross are entirely legal and ethical. They undoubtedly made changes that the Japanese rights-holders didn't like, but it makes little difference. Big West and Tatsunoko sold the series to Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold paid for the right to adapt the series as they saw fit. (So long as it stayed within HG's marketing domain.) Here's an amusing analogy that may help to put things into perspective: Imagine that I buy a super duper rare transformable fighter model from you on eBay. Then, when it arrives in the mail, I use it to plunge my toilet. You may not like that, and you will probably think that I committed an inexcusable travasty. (For indeed, I would have. ^^; ) But you wouldn't be able to complain, because you sold it to me. You don't have control over how it gets treated anymore. It generally works the same way when anime is imported into America. When the product leaves the creator's hands, it leaves the creator's control. That's just common sense.
There may be a problem with that from your perspective, but there isn't one from Harmony Gold's perspective, or from the casual fan's perspective. You have to keep in mind that Robotech was not made for SDF Macross, Southern Cross, or Mospeada fans - it was made for an entirely new group. Macek And Friends created Robotech for American kids who were looking for something exciting on TV; kids who had never heard the word "Macross" before in their lives, and would therefore have no reason to complain about the storyline changes. In my humble opinion, fans of the original Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada series have no license whatsoever to criticize Robotech. If they are able to know of the differences between the two series and discriminate based on them, they obviously have some sort of access to the original episodes and should be watching those instead. As nagash has said, Robotech is essentially a completely different series, and shouldn't be subject to comparison with the shows it was adapted from. Basically: If you don't like Robotech, don't watch it and then complain. Watch the new and upcoming releases of the series you actually appreciate: SDF Macross, Southern Cross, and/or Mospeada. The former is not simply a dub of the latter, and should not be considered one. (Just FYI: AnimEigo's first 3-disc box sets of Macross are due out in the USA later this month, and ADV just announced that they will be releasing Mospeada and Southern Cross on DVD as well. Check the "Robotech question" thread for more details.) |
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