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Re: Nudity in Elfen Lied

I do believe Elfen Lied is a serious show and also an emotional one - It portrays the cruelty of humanity effectively, and succeeded (for me, at least) in drawing the viewer into the characters and into feeling empathy and sorrow for their miserable lives. The nudity and violence were utilized effectively, IMO, to portray the horror of the crimes being carried out against the diclonius, and were wholly appropriate.

That said, I would have to strongly disagree with anyone who believes Elfen Lied to be complex or contain many symbolic elements. The show is quite simplistic actually; besides carrying some heavy & powerful themes the plot is very straightforward, the message being delivered is strongly present and easily noticed from a first watch, the themes are easy to comprehend, and I found very little to consider or contemplate besides what was clearly presented to the viewer in a first watch. I don't think it was EL's intent to be any sort of complex or to hold many underlying messages & themes so that the viewer wil go "Wow that's brilliant!!!!!" It appeals more to the heart than the brain, and that was the way it was meant to be.

I can't bring myself to consider EL cheap or corny in any sort of way; however I do understand where that argument is coming from. I believe that if you weren't moved by the show in any sort of way then you will tend to lean toward consider it a poor production (aka lame), and I completely respect that, seeing as how I've often found myself in the same situation (with an unchanging opinion of the show).

lazybastard wrote:

Yet you only see the nudity and violence, and none of the symbolism. That's your problem, not the show's.

Take the time to actually explain this so-called symbolism you're talking about, and then you will have a well-crafted argument. Right now, all you're doing is throwing out "it has symbolism", without explaining how or where the symbolism was inserted in the show whatsoever.

I personally hardly see any symbolism in the series. There are certainly powerful adult themes, yes - but symbolism? I don't think so. The music box perhaps, but even that barely seems to qualify, as what it symbolises is quite apparent from the surface.

psycho 101 wrote:

I'm so sorry us lowly peasants are not as emotionally and intellectually developed as you. Please forgive us for finding a mature meaning in this show. We'll all try harder to think exactly like you from now on. Maybe some people see past the nudity and blood. Perhaps some people simply perceive it differently then you. Why is that such a problem? Maybe the nude aspects of the experiments effect others differently then you.

You tend to always jump to way extremes, and demonize others . I find that quite disrespectful, regardless of whether the person is in the right or the wrong.

and lastly, you seem to be trapped in the mindset that a show MUST be one dimensional.... There are MANY MANY MANY harem shows that are meant to be "tearjerkers" (kanon, rumbling hearts, shuffle, come to mind...)

Again, where did I say that a show cannot handle more than one component?

Throw in a heap of "comedy relief" scenes as well as a whole mess load of standards and you have such a definitive example of clichéd harem romance that's it's embarrassing when one sees so many folks going on about how much of a "tear-jerker" the series is.

However, the issue here is that the Elfen Lied anime is not devoid of fanservice, moe, harem, and borderline lolicon elements. The violence is pretty much the same in both versions, and some scenes of fanservice were merely omitted. There is more than enough fanservice present in the anime, even by simply looking at those type of scenes where "the audience is supposed to laugh at Nyuu for playing with breasts." The BESM character designs with the exaggerated eyes and such remain the same. Minus one female character, the "harem gathering" remains the same.

When we have camera angles, bath scenes (emphasis on this due to your comments concerning Nyuu learning to take baths), "arousing reactions" by the characters to Nyuu's antics (Kouta's cousin, whose name escapes me, is an example), etc. it diverts the attention away from one of how a human-like being who is ignorant of traditions and rules in society such as wearing clothing to hide one's nakedeness. The whole reasoning by the creators as to why to put them in a position where we have lingering camera angles on their nude bodies comes across as being contrived. It is just that, an excuse to show it.

Tell me, what do you think the intended audience is for the Elfen Lied manga? Why would it not be similar for the Elfen Lied anime? Even though there are changes -- that's a given -- the core elements remain intact. To say that the intended audience suddenly changes completely from one to another while bearing in mind that the story is primarily the same is, frankly, ridiculous.

Yes, they did. But why not show him naked, or come up with some little boy and have him go about in the nude?

Seems you didn't get his question right so I'll ask... what's the difference between a female diclonius and a male diclonius? What does a female diclonius have that male diclonius doesn't have? Why aren't they experimenting with male diclonius? Anyway... it has to be female diclonius because spoiler[they have that thing powerful thing (which Zero89 was talking about)] that male diclonius doesn't have.

Now did I say that every single anime that the studio has worked on is a hentai? No.


I haven't seen Himawari nor I"s Pure, but I have read some of the manga. Assuming that the OVA adaption didn't change in tone and execution a great deal, there is fanservice in I"s.

Tell me, do you cry when watching Rambo, or any over-the-top Hollywood movie that emphasizes explosions with style over substance? Because that's what Gantz, anime and manga, essentially is (less explosions and more guts, though).

Uh, no.

You mentioned Rumblings Hearts. Let's make a comparison here. The whole thing hinges on the fact that for some reason, spoiler[the girl can't realize after waking up that time has passed]. The RahXephon movie also takes a similar route, with spoiler[Ayato somehow not remembering Haruka even after such a short time.] That kind of contrived storytelling bothers me because events happen because the creator forces them to happen, not because they happen naturally with the story.

Oh, I dunno. You're asking for a way to convey the message of how people raised in inhuman conditions turn into people that are severely scarred and are "beasts"? Without nudity at all? How about showing them being apprehensive of human contact? Of viewing and treating any life around them with little value? Or perhaps you'd like to see how general differences in behavior between the ones who were raised in healthy conditions versus those who weren't?

Want some anime that tackles the theme you mentioned? Black Lagoon, even though it's a mindless shot-'em-up action story, shows how screwed up the people who are at the bottom of the barrel are. The second season starts to really focus on that theme, particularly in the final arc. It's gritty, and while it does have nudity, it never emphasizes it. Texhnolyze does what you're asking for to arguably the most intense degree that any anime has ever done. The city of Lukuss is an absolute living hell and its occupants representing humanity in such an immensely raw form. It has sexuality, for instance, in the first episode, but it's presented in a dry, emotionally detached form. And last but certainly not least one cannot ignore Now and Then, Here and There for being downright unrelenting in its portrayal of children who are brought up, bred to only fight. Key even quotes one important line in his review:

more accusations

You think you can symbolize inhuman cruelty without resorting to violence?

You think you can easily symbolize the inhuman discrimination that the Naz* did with the Je*s without resorting to showing violence?

You think you can symbolize how weak women are sexually abuse to the extreme without showing her naked?

Well, maybe you can but that will lower how much you want to portray the real thing.

If you don't accept that I don't see it as mindless then that's your problem anymore, not mine

In the interests of fairness however; Hellkorn, was my response extreme, and do you feel I demonized you or insulted you personally and not simply disagree with your opinions?

First of all, looking at the comedic moments to determine that the entire series is not serious, or full of fanservice is just... stupid. A small portion, and I mean small--- the scenes you mention are almost exclusively in the first 3-4 episodes of the show, should not be what determines anything about the show as a WHOLE...

This quote just serves to further my statement.... You say many reasons why you believe the show to be a harem, as if this somehow validates your opinion that the show is "not serious". while ignoring the fact that maybe a show could be a harem AND something else.... like a drama. This does nothing to show that it is or is not 'fanservicy', as I stated earlier...

Chalk me up as another person who always thought Elfen Lied was a satire, and did since about 5 minutes in to the first episode. Really, how can you combine the basic genre trappings of both pointlessly adorable moe and stomach turning guro and still take the whole thing 100% seriously? Every driving force behind the events - shameful childhood secrets, an unassuming young man surrounded by cute girls, a conspiracy obsessed with mankind's extinction and evolution, the redemption of personal sacrifice - basically every event can be attributed to simple and common anime genre stereotypes, most of them which would be obvious to anyone who's seen a good deal of anime.

Nana's introduction - a cute and sweet natured smiling girl giving the audience a breath of adorable fanservice, who just happened to be chained to the wall and covered in her own blood - literally had me holding back laughter when I saw it. Oh well. Most people fail to see the humor of Kakugo no Susume/Apocalypse Zero as well. Maybe you just have to be incredibly jaded to see that humor can be subtle and offensive at the same time?

I assure you that the BESM syndrome you describe is also rampant in Kanon, a show you admit is not solely focused on fanservice.

Fan service is the act of adding something with no direct relevance to the story or character development into an anime (or manga) for the purpose of pleasing fans.

heaven forbid that a producer might change the target audienceS for an anime...

If he can figure out what I meant, why can't you?

While you didn't actually state that, was I supposed to assume that when you mentioned that the company that made the show, primarily specialized in hentai did not imply that by association, Elfen Lied must also be perverted?

And to answer your question, no, I don't, though I don't see how that has anything to do with Elfen Lied seeing as how that show is so much more emotional than either Gantz, or Rambo.

The way the stories are told are just too different.. yes there is a vague similarity, but Rumbling hearts main conflict is not because haruka (I think that was her name) spoiler[can't realize how much time has passed, but because takayuki does not know what to do once she awakens from her coma. He has for all intensive purposes, moved on, but is torn from the guilt he feels for "causing" her to be in the accident... So most of the show is actually about him admitting his true feelings, and getting over his guilt...]

Rhaxephon's use of that route is only a very minute part of the shows plot, so much so that it's not even worth mentioning, and is explained in the series... --- spoiler[he didn't even really forget haruka, time just flows differently in tokyo than in other places... he doesn't recognize haruka because she is so much older than he expects her to be; he does remember the younger haruka-- she's the young girl you see in the first episode.]

Of the shows you mentioned, I've only seen Black Lagoon; so I'll tell you why I believe Elfen Lied did a better Job at conveying the message, and causing the viewer to empathize with these "monsters". I cried many times in Elfen Lied; not once in Black Lagoon. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy black lagoon, but when you found out about Revy's past, did you sympathize with her when she bloew someone's head off? When she attacked an innocent bystander? I didn't, and yet I found myself wanting the children to die when lucy's dog was killed. I understood why she had no problem killing innocent people, and despite everything she did, I felt sorry for her.

Take the time to actually explain this so-called symbolism you're talking about, and then you will have a well-crafted argument. Right now, all you're doing is throwing out "it has symbolism", without explaining how or where the symbolism was inserted in the show whatsoever.

I personally hardly see any symbolism in the series. There are certainly powerful adult themes, yes - but symbolism? I don't think so. The music box perhaps, but even that barely seems to qualify, as what it symbolises is quite apparent from the surface.

Of course I could be wrong and this show could have been created for all those Guru fans out there.

Of course I could be wrong and this show could have been created for all those Guru fans out there.

You came on more strongly than you should've, but I was hardly "insulted" by it. I've encountered worse on the Internet, never mind out in the real world. Plus, I believe that I've had some discussions with you in the past, and I know that you are inherently a jackass or whatever. It's cool.

As for inherently being a jackass, ::thinks of a good arguement,:: Nope I got nothing.

Okay, this has turned into a pretty big mess...