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Re: Nudity in Elfen Lied

Apparently, as we've had this discussion before (or maybe it was a very similar one, now I'm not so sure) in the past. It's all good though.

So... your argument is that because it tries to do too many things, it clearly must not be a serious show?

Ok, first of all, the company that creates a project should certainly not be used as an indicator of the inherent quality or worth of the show. This company was produced Kite, which many people (myself included) that it has values far beyond being "just a hentai".

Second, while I can see why you would quote the source material, it really isn't always a good way to look at things. Going by that analogy, Kanon, Air and numerous other titles based off of ren'ai games would be automatically assumed to be hentai series (which they most obviously are not). While it may be based off of the manga, if they don't put everything from the manga into the anime, it's not a completely fair comparison. You have to look at what the anime did put in.

Third, I fail to see, on any level, how the attempt to interject humor and/or cliche aspects into the show in any way degrades from what it seems to be intending to do. Just take a look at something like FMA or Kanon (particularly KyoAni's version) for a show that tries to throw in some humor despite an almost oppressively heavy atmosphere at times. Now, I'll certainly admit that it didn't work as well in Elfen Lied, and it did come off as a bit of a confused mess at times, but it that really doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be serious and you're making a very obvious mental jump to reach that conclusion.

Now onto the issue of dehumanization, since this is obviously the crux of the argument that you fail to see as I do. Obviously, the whole point of the series was for Lucy to be saved mentally after she hit the bottom, mentally.

Imagining what it would have been like to live in a place like that is impossible obviously, as the intended audience would never have been subject to such inhumane, violent, and prolonged treatment. So the show tries to do it as best as it can, by showing various horrific situations and circumstances as often as it can find an excuse to throw them in.

Just as a kid who has grown up never hearing Japanese will not know Japanese, a baby who grew up not wearing clothes will not understand the reasoning or mindset behind wearing clothes aside from warmth. Here's the thing though, clothes don't mean anything to the Diclonius; so it doesn't matter to them if the clothes placed on them fall off, why should they care? Why don't they care though? Clearly, it is because they grew up in an environment where such things didn't matter. It is not just that they grew up in some bizarre environment where people didn't need clothes, they grew up in the hostile and downright cruel environment of step one.

This last sentence is ridiculous. MOST anime do this, the question is just how well they do it, and how well it hits you at the time. I've seen things that made me bawl my eyes out the first time I saw them and couldn't bear to sit through them they felt so melodramatic the second, but I've also seen the reverse.

Well, neither are
these people.

It's not like there's only one of them (to our communal dismay), just because there's people who share your opinions doesn't mean you're inherently right (or wrong).

The problem here is that, there are things that is hard to symbolize without violence or nude.

I just have to ask, where did you come up with this?

Ok... you've named many "reasons" why you think that the show's nudity is there for aesthetic reasons.... problem is, the only reasons you give are that: the source material had a lot of fanservice, the anime studio that created the show primarily dealt with hentai, and that it fits a cliche(?!).... not one of them do I see as a legitimate reason for your assumptions....

For one, are we judging Elfen Lied the anime, or it's source matreial? Something that is based off of another does not need to be an EXACT copy of it's predecessor, there is a reason they often call these trasitions between mediums "adaptations" instead of duplicates....

Secondly, you just can't accurately say that the product of a certain studio is going to be a certain way... For one, not all staff members are the same, which causes new concepts to be implemented into different shows.... Or two, the results the company strive for could simply change... which would be reflected in their latest shows: Himawari, and I's pure-- both of which are definitely NOT hentai.

I don't even see how your third statement has any place in this discussion... unless you're just trying to throw in a cheap shot, in an attempt to degrade the show as a whole... There are many shows that CAN fall into cliches, it's how well they do those cliches that counts....

and lastly, you seem to be trapped in the mindset that a show MUST be one dimensional.... There are MANY MANY MANY harem shows that are meant to be "tearjerkers" (kanon, rumbling hearts, shuffle, come to mind...)

Saying that a show falls in this cliche, or that cliche does nothing to prove that the show is fanservicy or not. It just serves to highlight the genre's tendencies...

Why did they only show women diclonius naked in the show? I'll answer your question with another question. Did they show a man diclonius anywhere in the show? One with vectors, that is....

Please do not compare Elfen Lied with Gantz.... Gantz (the anime) turns pathetic towards the end.... If i remember correctly; because they weren't granted a third season and so had to end the show short... not the case with elfen lied... See the difference? Whose to say that Gantz wasn't at one point going to become a true "tearjerker"? From what I've heard of the manga, it's a chance the anime adaptation was not given...

Are you trying to tell me that a show isn't supposed to manipulate the emotions of it's audience? Why bother watching emotional anime at all if you truly meant that? It's no wonder you don't understand the emotional aspect of Elfen lied.

Oshii We advance the story by making a rule that something is incomprehensible, even though it would be comprehensible with a little rational thought. That's the kind of drama we depict. Over half of it is a world built on words. In other words, it's a "fantasy story," and there is absolutely no need to brandish the word "realism" in situations like that... And being mindful of that, I resettled myself again. Thinking, "That's probably the direction it's going to go in."
But then, it didn't go anywhere from there (laughs).
By anywhere, I mean that when the girls says, "I'm so-and-so," and her identity becomes known, and when the main character confirms it, saying, "You're so-and-so, aren't you?" is when the story is supposed to end. A drama that can exist without that is no drama at all. Conflicts that develop due to the main character being immature can't be called drama. The majority of the drama in Japanese animation is that sort of "unnecessary drama." Drama that materializes because just one things remain unsaid. Or drama that materializes because the main character is immature.
Like Eva is a drama that would end the instant he says, "I'm going to take responsibility!" Everything converges on that point. And how long you can stretch that out for determines how many episodes the series will last.
Izubuchi Oh, I think we might have dragged it out in the series.
Oshii I dislike that sort of things. I dislike it.
Why I dislike stories based on trauma is because the drama ends when the main character is told the true nature of the trauma and he understands it. Because the drama is planned from the beginning to converge on that point, it's not like any of the people have changed or anything. In other words, it's not dialectic.
As a movie, this doesn't work at all. It's an enormously easy way out that works only in Japanese animation, which provides details to feed the audience's appetite.

Since you seem to think that this could have been done better, and that the nudity was excessive, perhaps you could tell me a better way to convey the same message?

“Wars don't raise children,” the motherly Sis says with devastating simplicity, but how can that speak to a man whose sickly sister was abducted by Hamdo's forces and then abandoned to die in the desert, leaving him to wonder whether she was dead or not by the time the scavengers got to her?

RIGHTEOUS FURY

What exactly are you whining about again? EL is hardly the only place you find gratuitous nudity. Even the supposedly "deep" shows got plenty of it: Evangelion's got its blatant fan service. Ghost in the shell (movie) got its topless invisibility. and Texhnolyze got its topless fortune-telling + excessive nude shots of that blond doc.

Hey there, Straw man.

Oh, and whenever did I say that fanservice is non-existant in deep anime*? There's nudity in Paranoia Agent. In Serial Experiments Lain the title character wears a cute bear suit. Yet, for whatever sexual fanservice is present in all of these, is it the main draw for the intended audience of those anime?

Hey there, Whiny boy.

And what exactly makes you think the main draw for EL is is the fan service?

Previously posters here already pointed out what they interpret as the symbolisms behind the show. Yet you only see the nudity and violence, and none of the symbolism. That's your problem, not the show's.

If the nudity can't fall in line for solely being there for either "fanservice," "parody," "shock value," whatever then I don't know what can.

Yeah, and some guy over the Internet can state that some random hentai title that involves nurses or office ladies is actually symbolizing the sexist views and situations that females are placed in society, particularly in jobs, and struggle to overcome the males that opress. I'd tell him to shut up and fap.

As far as I can recall, less than half of the nudity in EL was actually fanservice. The remainder mostly showed how diclonius were degraded and treated as less than human in the lab. Now please don't tell me you actually thought that the image of a naked, bloodied girl chained to a wall was supposed to be arousing?

Now please don't tell me you actually thought that the image of a naked, bloodied girl chained to a wall was supposed to be arousing?

Of course it can. And some, BUT NOT ALL, of violence and nudity in EL falls under that. The only examples that I can think of where the ONLY point was fanservice and shock value would be Gantz, along with the second half of Texhnolyze.

So you are basically saying that other people's opinions don't matter, only yours.

Y'know, you could just say that you dislike Texhnolyze spoiler[after Yoshi died] and drop the issue so we wouldn't be squabbling with no resolution in sight. I'd do the same with Elfen Lied if you did since we both aren't gonna budge.

How about I'm stating that people can try to interpret something however they want but, like I've said many times before, it won't change what it is. Smut with brains is smut with brains. A hentai is a hentai. A harem is a harem. Elfen Lied has these harem elements. If someone disagrees on me saying that at least the majority of the nudity is there for fanservice, then I'm fine with it. If they like the show, more power to them. But all the same they cannot deny that EL uses so many clichés from so many different genres.

dgreater1 wrote:

The problem here is that, there are things that is hard to symbolize without violence or nude.

If it's to show how ignorant she is of everyday things that we become accustomed to in society, of course there are other ways. Nudity isn't the the only way to get across to the audience that Lucy was subjected to experiments and doesn't know how to handle herself in society.

Zero89 wrote:

Quote: Why did they only show women diclonius naked in the show? I'll answer your question with another question. Did they show a man diclonius anywhere in the show? One with vectors, that is....

Yes, they did. But why not show him naked, or come up with some little boy and have him go about in the nude?

lazybastard wrote:

And what exactly makes you think the main draw for EL is is the fan service?

Because its one of the sellings points for its target audience? I mean, geez, I'm not saying something foolish such as people can't enjoy shows for which they don't below to the target audience, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole set up of the show as Key mentioned was to get a reaction out of its audience. If the nudity can't fall in line for solely being there for either "fanservice," "parody," "shock value," whatever then I don't know what can.

Yet you only see the nudity and violence, and none of the symbolism. That's your problem, not the show's.

I'm so sorry us lowly peasants are not as emotionally and intellectually developed as you. Please forgive us for finding a mature meaning in this show. We'll all try harder to think exactly like you from now on. Maybe some people see past the nudity and blood. Perhaps some people simply perceive it differently then you. Why is that such a problem? Maybe the nude aspects of the experiments effect others differently then you.