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Joe Mello
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 2316
Location: Online Terminal
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:07 am
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Do we have to adapt the Gundam "Wow cool robot" meme for Vinland Saga?
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Gemnist
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 1762
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:10 am
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This is perfect timing, as I just started Vinland Saga. I love the arc Yukimura has given Thorfinn, and while I get why some wish to have a more violent story given how the first saga is all about war, the story brilliantly moves on from that, making it clear that it does not matter and should not poison Thorfinn’s mind. Probably not the best idea to contrast it with Attack on Titan though, since that is also a story that is trying to say violence is bad…
Fingers crossed for an adaptation of the Eastern Expedition saga.
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Minos_Kurumada
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 1192
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:28 am
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Joe Mello wrote: | Do we have to adapt the Gundam "Wow cool robot" meme for Vinland Saga? |
With Thorkell throwing a tree instead of shooting a missile.
Anyways, anybody who didn't see Thorkell following the peace way as his logical character development path was blind.
His whole history line was about trying to understand Thorfinn's father.
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tintor2
Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2169
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:58 am
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While it sure is amazing how Yukimura developed Thorfinn, probably the way it was handled with Canute blew my mind the first time I read the farm arc. It's like the two became their own opposites.
Joe Mello wrote: | Do we have to adapt the Gundam "Wow cool robot" meme for Vinland Saga? |
I have already seen one of Thors saying "war is bad" but rather than only the viewer missing it, it also misses teenage Thorfinn
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ZetMoon80
Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 110
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:14 am
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Shouldn't it be "2023 marks the twenty-fourth year"?
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Matros
Joined: 22 Feb 2021
Posts: 335
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 2:46 pm
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Gemnist wrote: | Probably not the best idea to contrast it with Attack on Titan though, since that is also a story that is trying to say violence is bad… |
"Trying" is the key word. AoT certainly tried... *cough*
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ZiharkXVI
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 388
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:02 pm
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Gemnist wrote: | This is perfect timing, as I just started Vinland Saga. I love the arc Yukimura has given Thorfinn, and while I get why some wish to have a more violent story given how the first saga is all about war, the story brilliantly moves on from that, making it clear that it does not matter and should not poison Thorfinn’s mind. Probably not the best idea to contrast it with Attack on Titan though, since that is also a story that is trying to say violence is bad…
Fingers crossed for an adaptation of the Eastern Expedition saga. |
I get his point though. AoT has an anti-war/violence message...but does so by reveling in its grotesque violence. The irony is actually a fascinating one. When fans complain there is no action - meaning that the violence is the draw - it betrays the subconscious desire of many for that violence. We may accept a message of nonviolence, but we nonetheless are entertained by it.
Yukimura is a cut above though, just my opinion. I love all of Vineland Saga.
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The Hansond Jaysond Lee
Joined: 16 Dec 2015
Posts: 36
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:57 pm
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Well, both VS and AoT do share the same anti-violence message. The difference is one is doing it by not showing violence and the other is by showing grotesque violence. But one is more popular than the other. Guess which one? Yep, it's the one with a lot of violence.
I think the quote from Sergeant Gross from AoT really sums up the average people's mentality.
"I wouldn't call it pleasure ... I just find it interesting. Does that sound a bit crazy to you? Well, the fact is most people want to see cruelty. Don't get me wrong, I think peace is a wonderful thing but something about it just feels lacking ... we've pushed death out of sight and mind ... now that's no way to live, death is always near in nature... and some might think me of normal for investigating such things. But to them I'd say I faced this cruel world head-on. And because I bothered to deepen my understanding of death I can accept it when my time comes. See, it's about education my boys learned from watching their dogs eat your sister."
Btw, this character looked dead center at the reader/audience when saying all of this, almost like a fourth wall breaking scene. And right after he said all of this, he got pushed to his death and got eaten by a Titan and people cheered for his death, proving his point right.
I think Isayama is painfully aware of how much his anti-war message is being overlooked by the average readers that just want to see violence in his work. I mean, violence sells. Just look at the most popular movies and TV shows (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, The Dark Knight movies, Pulp Fiction). I think there's no way AoT would reach the level of popularity that it has gotten if it chose the "avoiding conflict" way of saying violence is bad.
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doctordoom85
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2094
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 7:08 pm
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ZiharkXVI wrote: | I get his point though. AoT has an anti-war/violence message...but does so by reveling in its grotesque violence. The irony is actually a fascinating one. When fans complain there is no action - meaning that the violence is the draw - it betrays the subconscious desire of many for that violence. We may accept a message of nonviolence, but we nonetheless are entertained by it.
Yukimura is a cut above though, just my opinion. I love all of Vineland Saga. |
It’s pretty presumptuous to say the AOT mangaka is reveling in its violence. And honestly, enjoying fictional violence has no correlation to promoting actual violence. Being entertained by a story with violence does not mean one can’t also wish for a non-violent world.
The problem is we don’t live in a world made entirely of moral people, and thus violence is often required to defend ourselves against people carrying out violence against innocent people. A story that depicts that is not necessarily promoting violence or reveling it, but simply being an honest portrayal of humanity.
A story naturally requires conflict most of the time to work. Violence is often an element of conflict. And when the source of said violence comes from massive monstrosities, *gasp*, the violence might be kind of intense, whuduthunk.
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kotomikun
Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 1205
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:25 pm
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doctordoom85 wrote: | It’s pretty presumptuous to say the AOT mangaka is reveling in its violence. |
Admittedly, I haven't watched it since season 1 and never read the manga. But, well, the basic concept is that the world is overrun by gigantic impossibly fast zombies that eat people alive, and the only way to stop them is to fly around with grappling hooks like spider-man, slicing them to bits with one-atom-thick anime swords. Or by transforming into a giant zombie yourself. I don't see any possible way to portray that without reveling in violence, regardless of the intended message.
Accidentally making war seem cool and exciting, partly due to characters not being real people and their trauma or deaths being only pretend tragedy, is an almost universal problem with anti-war stories. Though it's worse in some cases than others.
In the real world, large-scale violence is usually caused by inequality--people fighting oppression, those in power trying to suppress dissent, or both. Everyone deciding to be pacifists might prevent literal violence, but would maintain the metaphorical "violence" of unfair hierarchies indefinitely. In an increasingly post-scarcity world, there's not much excuse for this sort of structure anymore; but change is hard, and often bloody.
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ZiharkXVI
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 388
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 11:42 pm
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doctordoom85 wrote: |
ZiharkXVI wrote: | I get his point though. AoT has an anti-war/violence message...but does so by reveling in its grotesque violence. The irony is actually a fascinating one. When fans complain there is no action - meaning that the violence is the draw - it betrays the subconscious desire of many for that violence. We may accept a message of nonviolence, but we nonetheless are entertained by it.
Yukimura is a cut above though, just my opinion. I love all of Vineland Saga. |
It’s pretty presumptuous to say the AOT mangaka is reveling in its violence. And honestly, enjoying fictional violence has no correlation to promoting actual violence. Being entertained by a story with violence does not mean one can’t also wish for a non-violent world.
The problem is we don’t live in a world made entirely of moral people, and thus violence is often required to defend ourselves against people carrying out violence against innocent people. A story that depicts that is not necessarily promoting violence or reveling it, but simply being an honest portrayal of humanity.
A story naturally requires conflict most of the time to work. Violence is often an element of conflict. And when the source of said violence comes from massive monstrosities, *gasp*, the violence might be kind of intense, whuduthunk. |
I stand by my statement. Your opinion of fictional violence having no correlation is complete guesswork, but even if true I never suggested causality. If anything it says something about the human psyche. And it's definitely over the top in AoT. Thats how it became so popular in the first place.
kotomikun wrote: |
doctordoom85 wrote: | It’s pretty presumptuous to say the AOT mangaka is reveling in its violence. |
Admittedly, I haven't watched it since season 1 and never read the manga. But, well, the basic concept is that the world is overrun by gigantic impossibly fast zombies that eat people alive, and the only way to stop them is to fly around with grappling hooks like spider-man, slicing them to bits with one-atom-thick anime swords. Or by transforming into a giant zombie yourself. I don't see any possible way to portray that without reveling in violence, regardless of the intended message. |
I mean, when you put it like that...
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jr240483
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4471
Location: New York City,New York,USA
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 12:29 pm
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Matros wrote: |
Gemnist wrote: | Probably not the best idea to contrast it with Attack on Titan though, since that is also a story that is trying to say violence is bad… |
"Trying" is the key word. AoT certainly tried... *cough* |
at least they didn't use the "KILL EM ALL TOMINO STYLE" aspect when it comes to a violent and unforgiving world!
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doctordoom85
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2094
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 12:48 pm
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ZiharkXVI wrote: | Your opinion of fictional violence having no correlation is complete guesswork |
Well, by that logic, I could easily say Vinland Saga promotes violence simply because it has violence in it. Doesn’t matter if the author says otherwise, that doesn’t prove it objectively.
See? It’s presumptuous to say any series promotes violence unless it flat out says it does. It comes off as slightly moral guardian-y, and lord knows that behavior most of us are beyond tired of. How about taking a stand against real violence, and not worry so much about the fictional story about people turning into kaiju and wrestling each other?
And yes, CLEARLY the violence was what made AOT so popular. The animation, directing, music, characters, story, etc. were all clearly mostly irrelevant in it becoming popular. CLEARLY.
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ZiharkXVI
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 388
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:48 pm
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doctordoom85 wrote: |
ZiharkXVI wrote: | Your opinion of fictional violence having no correlation is complete guesswork |
Well, by that logic, I could easily say Vinland Saga promotes violence simply because it has violence in it. Doesn’t matter if the author says otherwise, that doesn’t prove it objectively.
See? It’s presumptuous to say any series promotes violence unless it flat out says it does. It comes off as slightly moral guardian-y, and lord knows that behavior most of us are beyond tired of. How about taking a stand against real violence, and not worry so much about the fictional story about people turning into kaiju and wrestling each other?
And yes, CLEARLY the violence was what made AOT so popular. The animation, directing, music, characters, story, etc. were all clearly mostly irrelevant in it becoming popular. CLEARLY. |
You keep saying things I am not saying. I never said the story wasn't good, etc. I just stated fighting is what attracted the audience. They likely stayed because of competent writing.
And I used the logic of "I don't know and neither do you". All I did was point out an opinion of yours on the correlation in interest (because you can't really prove/disprove it) and tell you yet again I didn't say that anime violence causes actual violence. I don't believe that to be true.
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doctordoom85
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2094
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 5:08 pm
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ZiharkXVI wrote: |
doctordoom85 wrote: |
ZiharkXVI wrote: | Your opinion of fictional violence having no correlation is complete guesswork |
Well, by that logic, I could easily say Vinland Saga promotes violence simply because it has violence in it. Doesn’t matter if the author says otherwise, that doesn’t prove it objectively.
See? It’s presumptuous to say any series promotes violence unless it flat out says it does. It comes off as slightly moral guardian-y, and lord knows that behavior most of us are beyond tired of. How about taking a stand against real violence, and not worry so much about the fictional story about people turning into kaiju and wrestling each other?
And yes, CLEARLY the violence was what made AOT so popular. The animation, directing, music, characters, story, etc. were all clearly mostly irrelevant in it becoming popular. CLEARLY. |
You keep saying things I am not saying. I never said the story wasn't good, etc. I just stated fighting is what attracted the audience. They likely stayed because of competent writing.
And I used the logic of "I don't know and neither do you". All I did was point out an opinion of yours on the correlation in interest (because you can't really prove/disprove it) and tell you yet again I didn't say that anime violence causes actual violence. I don't believe that to be true. |
-no, you said it’s how it became popular. A show needs people to stick with it to be popular. So you did actually imply fighting alone is what kept people watching.
-that’s not even an opinion, how many more psychological studies need to confirm watching/playing violent media does not cause a person to commit violence? That’s not “complete guesswork” as you claimed if it has research backing it up.
The problem is you initially stated AOT revels in violence like it’s a fact not an opinion when both series have an anti-violence message yet also feature violence so ultimately it comes down to pure preference, and maybe making accusations towards another series isn’t a good way to get fans of said series interested in checking out the series you like. While it’s not as bad as the way some Bocchi the Rock fans behaved (gee, I wonder why I haven’t checked out the show a few fans felt the need to call Komi garbage purely for having a lead going through similar issues, and called Chainsaw Man overrated trash purely for daring to air the same seasons? Hmm, it’s almost like I really enjoy those two shows, and maybe don’t want to give a show a chance if a few of its fans feel the need to insult the things I like unnecessarily), it’s still not great. At least Yukimara himself didn’t directly insult or accuse AOT of anything, he just seemed to point out AOT happened to have more violence, but he never said it was being dishonest about its intentions.
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