Forum - View topicWhy exactly does anime succeed where Western animaton fails?
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Amibite
Posts: 196 |
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In terms of widespread phenomenon, I mean. You have huge worldwide hits like Naruto, Pokemon, One Piece, and tons of other series loved by people all over the globe, yet no real Western shows can claim that; the closest is characters like Mickey Mouse and Batman who are recognized, but the actual shows they're in do mediocre at best (does Mickey even have a current cartoon? I don't know. Name recognition isn't the same as actual fandom).
I'm not really looking at the quality of each work so much as the overall mood and culture that surrounds them. For example, very few western shows get a full DVD release, let alone BD or other bells and whistles anime get. What makes anime have thousands of conventions all over the world with thousands of goers, but you never see conventions for Western animation? Why do sites like ANN and MAL exist for anime but not western cartoons; or to put it simply; why is anime a hobby but western animation isn't if you want to boil it down? |
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FLMikeATT
 Posts: 58 |
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The simple answer is cultural differences. For the most part as a whole westerners and especially Americans, don't take animation seriously and think that it's all cartoons and only for children. It might be a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it I think.
Most anime fans have probably gotten reactions like these from family members and others. |
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Roshi1030
 Posts: 50 Location: Attleboro MA. |
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In my opinion Anime is a culture unto its own; that is difference between Eastern and western. For the longest time animated entertainment in the western culture has been regarded as mearly for children once you were an adult it was left behind. With the rise of anime also came the culture surrounding it; aka. expos, seminars, etc.
Anime also found a hugh market here in the west people of all ages found something of interest and western cartoons were left behind. The only way the old cartoon/comicbook charaters still live is in blockbuster movies they simply can't compete or compare to the massive volume of Anime and Manga available. |
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swienke
 Posts: 245 |
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I think diversity is a large part of it. For all that it contains a number of shared tropes, anime encompasses a wide range of genres and styles: you can have action shows, romantic comedies, sci-fi, drama, tragedy, high fantasy, bildungsroman, and just about any other genre you can think of. In addition, there's not that much of a rigid adherence to any particular structure: some series run almost continuously for multiple years with no end in sight, some are short with very definitive endings, some encompass huge time scales, while others may only cover a couple of days in a characters life, some are episodic, others are anything but, etc.
Compare that to most western animation, in which the majority of shows are either semi-educational or supposedly (but rarely actually) comedic series aimed at children, or they're ribald late-night comedies and pop-culture satires aimed at young adults. Both categories are also often poorly animated, and entirely episodic. When your categories are as narrow as these, your audience is also going to be much more limited, and you end up in an almost endless cycle akin to what FLMikeATT mentioned, in which most people view animation as childish, leading to less Western animators wanting to take risks, so the already narrow genres used are reinforced, and the audience never expands, blah, blah, blah. However, it's not as though all Western animation falls into the black hole that I just mentioned. Avatar: The Last Airbender and all of the Pixar movies have very vocal fanbases and produce lots of DVD sales and merchandise, and I think that's because they all break out of the narrative straight-jacket that most Western animation is confined to. Although all of them are still made to appeal to children, they're also well made, have dramatic heft, and have continuous plots that eventually wrap up satisfactorily. If more Western animation were to do that, then I think they could expand the audience and give anime a run for its money in terms of influence. |
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Mr Fingers
 Posts: 42 |
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Hmm... theme parks on four continents. Mickey Mouse? Check. Pokemon... not even close to half a "check". Syndicated runs of TV episodes produced decades ago. Donald Duck? Check. Naruto... was the Kubo Tite guy who wrote that even alive at that time? Probably not. Super-Anti-Check. American animation is popular all over the world. Anime, as we define it, is a niche. Just because the Japanese animation fanbase is vocal on the internetwebs doesn't mean it is bigger than the US one. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18499 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Amibite, you're sadly misinformed if you think that American animated properties don't enjoy worldwide popularity to a greater degree than most anime titles do.
Case in point: the four Shrek movies, on average, more than doubled their domestic grosses through worldwide exposure, with an average gross of around $420 million per movie outside of the U.S. Anime's top performers don't even manage 2/3 of that. EDIT: Forgot the word "million." Sheesh. 
Last edited by Key on Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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As for the prevalence of conventions devoted to anime and not Western animation and what we refer to as cartoons, it's just the multilayered aspect and cultural depth that exists in anime. To everyone else in the world anime is a foreign product that never ceases to fascinate, amaze and provide insight into the vibrant, interesting and sometimes eccentric society that is Japan.
Western animation pales in comparison on that aspect especially if you look at it this way: France has also has a long and colorful history of producing animated works, and would probably be the closest to rivaling that of Japan's. But there are few if any conventions, or notable worldwide appreciation for French animation, which may lead to the conclusion it can only be the animation industry of Japan that has obtained such a remarkable and unique status of recognition and appreciation by people all over the world. |
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Penguin_Factory
 Posts: 732 Location: Ireland |
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Wait, are we talking about animated series here, or movies as well? Because American animated movies definitely do "succeed", often beyond the wildest dreams of any anime.
In terms of series, it's a difference in audience. Most of the anime we watch is aimed at teens and adults, people who are likely to have money to spend on DVDs and Blu Rays, whereas most American shows are aimed at kids, who don't. Not that that means they "fail", by the way. I would hazard a guess that your average Cartoon Network show makes far more money in its TV broadcast and merchandise than all but the most popular anime. They just don't have hardcore older fans buying DVD box sets. Ask an anime producer which situation they'd prefer and I have a feeling it would the former. |
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zaphdash
 Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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It's not just Shrek, either. Disney has released hit after hit since the late 80s Disney Renaissance, and Pixar movies rake in hundreds of millions of dollars and scores of adoring reviews. Don Bluth hasn't done much in the past ten years but he had a string of successful movies twenty or twenty-five years ago. If we're talking about television animation -- uhhhh, the Simpsons? South Park? I'm in Brussels and I saw a big Rugrats display the other day in front of a daycare. Take a transatlantic flight and I promise recent episodes of Family Guy and Futurama will be among the selection of TV and movies the airline has for you to watch. It's not that American animation isn't successful, it's that American animation is not generally considered its own monolithic "thing" the way anime is. America doesn't just export animation, it exports a vast amount of the television and movies that people watch around the world (ever talked with, say, a Swede? Wondered why they didn't have a very strong accent? It's because most of what they see on television is American shows subtitled in Swedish), and animation is just part of that. Meanwhile Japan certainly sends plenty of quality movies to the art house circuit, and with guys like Kurosawa, Ozu, the guys of the Nuberu Bagu, etc etc etc, also has a really robust film history -- but few people really closely relate these with anime, and aside from Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, it's probably safe to say very few Japanese movies have gotten any kind of foothold in mainstream American society the way anime has (anime may still be a niche as far as who's interested in it, but most people at least know what it is these days -- does anybody really know Ugetsu or In the Realm of the Senses?). If American animation seems "unsuccessful," it's only because it is much more a component of an enormous "whole" of American entertainment than anime, which is sort of its own thing separate and apart from other Japanese entertainment, at least to foreign markets. |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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Where Western animation fails for me is the lack of producing more shows like Aeon Flux(mature action adventure), The Maxx( dark, mind-screw), and King of the Hill(slice of life) on a regular basis. Anime makes more shows than bland Y7 titles and political potty humor soapboxing. |
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mglittlerobin
 Posts: 1071 |
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I don't know where you get that Western Animation "fails". Ben 10 Ultimate Alien would like to have a word with you.
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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I think that zaphdash and Past nailed it. The reason why anime can seem to be popular is the fact that it's threaten as a foreign monolith, while western cartoons are divided. People usually consider themselves as anime and manga fans. Not specify Tezuka's, not Ikeda's not Matsumoto's not ecchi's, nor Ghibi's. Listening to such a fan a person not familiar with it can consider that he likes anime overall, without any divisions.
The same goes with English speaking part of the Net. Just a few titles (Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, FMA, Berserk) have a strong and active fansites apart from "mainstream" portals like ANN. Most of titles have relatively small fansites existing thanks to devotion of several really devoted fans. When it comes to Western comics/animation fandoms are really divided: we have superheroes' fans, fans of series X/Y/Z. The same goes with animations- fans of Disney, Pixar, SpongeBob, WINX, Avatar, etc... Of course that divisions aren't strict and fandom's intermingle each other, but it's quite visible. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Actually, I would say MOST western animation fall into this category. That Pixar and a few others simply do it better doesn't negate the fact that western animation mostly is preoccupied with neat, tidy affairs. Pixar is the epitome of "neat and tidy" movies. There is rarely any ambiguity, rarely any loose ends, the drama is telegraphed in fundamentally sound fashion, and the characters are written very transparently. By making movies that "anyone" can enjoy, you are able to gain a large share of various demographics. Anime's greatest strength over western animation is also one of its greatest weaknesses when it comes to mainstream appeal. The stories often are NOT neat and tidy affairs. Many characters can often have 3 or 4 different motives and various ambiguities. There are loose ends. Sometimes they go into the realm of "artsy fartsy". Sometimes they get experimental to their own detriment. This makes anime very hard for just "anyone" to enjoy. Anime's greatest appeal is their *occasional* daring. They're willing to push something into realms that are not crowd pleasing. Sometimes we as fans like it, and sometimes we don't, but it's one of the reasons we watch anime, I think. As nice as it is to enjoy the good old fashioned craftsmanship of a good Pixar or Dreamworks film, even their best films are pretty safe, tidy affairs that ultimately end up pushing all the right buttons with most audiences. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3674 |
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Comments from bravetailor made me think of a comparison.
It's been a decade or so since I've used a television to watch TV, so this may no longer be the case, but in the 90s, I remember that Fox's primetime lineup was filled with weird, experimental show ideas compared to CBS, NBC, and ABC. Most of them tanked horribly, but a few of them picked up a pretty sizable following, especially among nerds. I don't know if that made Fox more successful, but it was certainly more talked-about among nerdy circles. I think Japan's animation fills the same role as Fox did back in the day, and I think a lot anime fans would've been Fox fans, too. The other thing is that the U.S. entertainment industry just has more money, and with more money comes higher standards of entertainment, and no one is going to spend tons of money to make a high-quality work that doesn't have a good shot at paying off. But lower standards means lower budgets, which means more acceptable risk. Just as indie film making built its own niche and culture, so did anime. |
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zaphdash
Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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I think you're oversimplifying Western animation considerably here. It's true that typical Western productions, as they are usually aimed at children, generally lack for ambiguity. I don't think that necessarily means that Western animation is generally "safer" than anime. The correct comparison to make would be adult-oriented Western animation to adult-oriented anime, or child-oriented WA to child-oriented anime. In the latter case, I think you'll find that anime tends to be every bit as unambiguous as Pixar or Disney or anything else. The former is a bit tougher to compare because of the relative dearth of adult-oriented Western animation, and comparison specifically on your terms is even more difficult because, whether you've intended it or not, the characteristics you're setting forth as anime's strengths are generally hallmarks of drama, not comedy, the genre of most adult Western animation. I don't think it's any failing of the Simpsons if it lacks loose ends and ambiguity -- that's not the point of the show. I'm not going to stand up here and defend latter-day Simpsons, which is more or less a comedic wasteland, but in the 90s the show was an excellent mix of genuine wit, biting satire, and yes, well-developed characters, making it a very strong comedy. I went to the Simpsons (even though, as I acknowledged above, I hate the past 12-14 seasons of it) because it's obviously the single biggest, most successful animated American TV show at least of the past 25 years, probably ever. Speaking more broadly, and this obviously is only my opinion, but comparing adult-oriented comedic anime to adult-oriented comedic Western animation, I will take the Western show nine times out of ten (in the tenth case the Western show is Family Guy and I'd rather gouge out my eyes). There are a handful of strong anime comedies out there (pretty sure virtually all of them were Gainax productions), but most anime I've seen lacks the wit and cleverness of shows like the Simpsons, Futurama, etc. The majority of anime comedies, at least that I've seen (admittedly, though, it's a genre I mostly avoid, since most of my experiences with it have been negative), tend to rely primarily on either general wackiness, on slapstick, or on crude physical humor (I hate to use this example since I otherwise adore the show and it's also not, overall, a comedy, but the episode of Macross Frontier when Sheryl loses her panties is just unbearable). Even those comedies that do succeed tend to do so just by doing one (or more) of these things particularly well. It's a different style of comedy and one that I personally don't find particularly appealing. I think a lot (not all) of Adult Swim shows try to ape this style too, which is probably why I can't really stomach Adult Swim. Now this is all ultimately just a matter of personal taste and maybe if you made a proper comparison, you'd find that even adult vs. adult, comedy vs. comedy, you like anime more. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But I think the specific comparison you're trying to make puts anime at an inherent advantage, you're a guy who clearly prefers apples and you're comparing them to oranges anyway. It may be a failing of Western animation that it hasn't produced dramas to compare to anime, or it may be a failing of Western animation at least as far as you're concerned if you don't find Western comedies as funny as anime comedies, but I don't think the lack of ambiguity or loose ends in most Western animation is, on its face, an inherent weakness. I also think this whole discussion implicates another point, which is fairly obvious but maybe bears mentioning anyway: it's very difficult to argue that something succeeds or fails on its artistic merits given that everybody will have his own individual reaction to it (see: Transformers 3, with a 36% on Rotten Tomatoes, but $300 million worldwide gross so far and a robust CinemaScore A rating). Is this a thread about whether Western animation succeeds qualitatively, or is it a thread about financial success? I think the point's already been made that Western animation is extremely successful financially, even if it doesn't have a specific following behind it the way anime does. If we're going to talk about the actual quality of the shows as the measure of success, this is rapidly going to devolve into listing what you do and don't like about various shows (which is kind of what I've already done here, so I'm guilty too) and we aren't really going to get anywhere. (I'd additionally point out that anime frequently fails to handle character ambiguities very gracefully, and that sometimes loose ends are just the result of sloppy storytelling [eg Gundam SEED/Gundam SEED Destiny], but this post has gone on long enough as it is, so I'll just plant the seed and leave it for another discussion.) |
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