Forum - View topic[Definition of Insults]
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DuelGundam2099
 Posts: 533 |
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I would like to make a pair of suggestions for the rules.
1. A guide to what qualifies as insulting. When having a debate with someone it can lead people to assume that insults are going on that are not going on. Insults are derogatory terms used for cases such as swearing, calling someone an idiot, bringing up their religious or political affiliation, showing off their credentials while belittling their opponents for a supposed lack thereof, or strawman fallacies. However, I have seen debate points being declared as non-civil when the accused in question is defending himself from an insult, corrects the person he or she is debating, or simply having an unpopular opinion. There should be guidelines as to what qualifies as insulting in more gray territories. 2. A system designed to report abuse. For over a decade I've come across many forums where cyber bullying is not taken seriously and becomes rampant, sometimes by moderators and usually by private messages. If someone is experiencing harassment by cyber bullying there needs to be a committee or similar group designed analyze and crackdown on such treatments, preferably in private. I've experienced this harassment multiple times since I joined here and I have no idea who to report this abuse to and yes I have pictures taken. Tempest is busy running the site and I don't know any of the other administrators here, let alone someone I can trust. At the very least I have noticed that the rules mention absolutely nothing about how to deal with harassment. |
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Mr. Oshawott
 Posts: 6773 |
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@DuelGundam2099
Those are excellent suggestions that I personally would love to see implemented. I think a guide distinguishing civil, harmless points from the truly harmful ones (ad-hominems, strawmans, name-calling, etc.) could really help the moderators out by a long shot. 
As for your second point, have you tried contacting Zac? He's the other administrator of ANN besides Tempest. Perhaps he could be of help. |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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If it happens again I will heavily consider contacting him (with pictures). I just recently went back through my entire post history so I can form a more cohesive argument should the need to do so arise. I've been cyber bullied enough times to see the rhetoric.
Not only this, but it would be nice to say "I do not see the appeal of insert name here" not be translated to fandom insulting.* If other people like something I loathe I have no problem with that and vice versa. I may ask why, but I have plenty of unpopular opinions of my own to know going after people for different opinions isn't a great idea. My point is conclusion jumping should be discouraged. *Slippery slope fallacy? |
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Mr. Oshawott
Posts: 6773 |
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Oh yes, I've seen this sort of negative activity, as well as the other issues that you brought up, occur quite frequently in other forum websites that I used to reside in several months/years earlier. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 10024 Location: Virginia |
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If you feel a post is inappropriate, click on the red exclamation mark in the upper right hand corner of the post in question. In the resulting text box, explain why you think it is inappropriate. This will bring it to the attention of the moderator. Note the post does not have to be directed to you. You can report someone harassing a third party.
The moderators are the appropriate people to take care of any post that is inappropriate. Zac and Tempest very seldom get involved in this unless the offending posts are frequent and egregious. When you report a post, do not reply to it. This will most likely inflame the situation further. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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If you are getting abusive PMs there is a thread for reporting those near the top of the Bugs & Technical Questions forum. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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No, he's just upset and crying foul because he's been warned by moderators to stop certain behaviors of his. He instead wants to argue the semantics on what qualifies as "being civil" or "arguing". So now after being warned to be civil or face moderation he's bringing his complaints here and trying to dress them up and paint himself as some sort of victim. Entrapment didn't you say in your PM Duel? Now it's cyber bullying Right. This is just another attempt on his part to try and debate the rules and what they really mean, argue his own interpretation of them to avoid getting in trouble, and in the end circumvent moderator warnings with this disingenuous song and dance routine. This is nothing more than some grandiose elaborate act to try and garner public support after being reprimanded by moderators. There is no entrapment, cyber bullying, or anything else. The topic of your behavior had already been in discussion with the mods. Your most recent exchange simply provided an apt time to give you that warning. I gave it in the thread and was quite clear why you were getting it. You wanted to then debate it in PM's you sent to me, Now you're posting the issue here. Noticeably while not mentioning the fact that you had been warned by moderators to be civil and behave, and instead trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim. Also, don't worry about taking screen shots of our PM conversation for "proof" either. I already posted our exchange in the staff section for other mods and admin to see earlier. Your post history is also easily accessible to the mod and admin staff as well. |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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And that I have been threatened that if I don't type every name I reply to my posts would get deleted.
Mainly because you never stated what I was doing that was uncivil, at no point did anyone point to even one example of when I was doing such thing.
Because I genuinely feel like one, specifically someone being painted as a troublemaker that did nothing wrong.
I did, I've been bullied by bad moderators before: They use vague rhetoric in their wording without citing their references and enforce the "because I said so" fallacy even when rule breaking is not being done; they also use "you have extra rules applied to you which prevent you from participating normally because arbitrary reasons" which is by technical standards entrapment, someone in authority having someone do a criminal act they otherwise wouldn't do.
For coming up with a substantive position on a grievance?
Something that happened twice counts as routine? You're implying there have been many instances of this when there were only two in which mods sent any PM my way.
No, more like the methods of enforcement are becoming vague, this is unusual, I have seen this type of thing before, this is a topic for suggesting better guidelines for the rules, and I am going to address it where everyone can see it before it gets worse aka get examples in writing.
And at the same time you have not been in detail as to what I was warned for or even shared examples with me in the private messaging. This to me shows an inability to present evidence for a crime.
I took pics as well. |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
 Subscriber Posts: 3019 |
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I don't understand what you're talking about here, but there shouldn't be anyone committing any crimes on an anime message board unless they are Criminal Bears. It's possible this whole issue is being blown out of proportion, but giving it the benefit of the doubt, my advice for keeping things civil on the Internet is to behave like you believe that other people's opinions, tastes, interpretations, etc., are just as valid as your own. You don't have to actually believe it all the time (sometimes people are just wrong), but if you act like you believe it, you'll have a much more enjoyable time. I feel like that's honestly covered under Rule #1, though. |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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I do this on a daily basis too, I've been cyber bullied about my own opinions so much that I sympathize with those with unpopular opinions, that is the main reason I do not berate people. The issue here is that people say I do, I don't see it, and nobody says how and I have been tricked and harassed into this multiple times to know how things go. |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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Ok.
So the main warning I gave in that thread was general. Which means that other people were also being inappropriate, and they were being inappropriate to you. The portions of your posts I edited were things that were either going to prolong the argument or make it devolve. There's not much of a reason to make statements that amount to "you don't know what you're talking about". Just make your case as eloquently as you can. If things start to heat up again, and you think the people you are talking to are not being reasonable, report their posts and do not engage with them. If you feel that a fire is starting, please resist the urge to fan it. I know it can be hard, but please try. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10460 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I'm sorry, but I disagree with this very much. I am absolutely not willing to write out a guide that defines for people what is an insult. For every single rule on this website we could write out a 5,000 word explanation of the details.. and... no one would read it right ? The one guy who did read it would then find a way to be rude or insulting that wasn't specifically laid out in the rules and then say "but it wasn't in the rules." My purpose has always been to keep the rules as simple as possible, so that they can be easily read and understood. Here's the one guideline I will offer you: If you're not certain whether or not you are being rude or insulting, or if someone else might find your post rude or insulting, modify your post to the point where you are certain that no one will be offended. If a moderator warns you for being rude, and you honestly have no idea why, PM that moderator and ask them to explain exactly why they felt you were being rude. As long as it doesn't happen too frequently, the moderators would be happy to help you. Please understand that we won't tolerate semantic arguments. We will explain to you why we felt you were being rude; that's all. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16963 |
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I want to highlight these 2 points. I will be the first to say we mods can make mistakes. We can at times think a user meant one thing based on their words or apparent tone when they meant something else entirely. I don't deny that for one second. I've made the mistake myself. The key here, as Tempest said, is to PM the moderator in question and ask them POLITELY why they felt you were being rude. You can also POLITELY explain yourself and what meaning you intended to give off in that thread/situation. The key is you have to civil when approaching us. This is not a 1 way street. If you want us to listen to you and not dismiss you as just complaining you got hand slapped then you need to be polite and meet us halfway. The problem Duel is that in the past, and with this most recent example, you have not done that. You instead have resorted to the second point, arguing semantics. Instead of politely asking us why we warned you in the given situation you want to argue with us the definition of "arguing" or debate the semantics of being polite or what constitutes an insult. Your PM to me for example was hostile and accusatory right off the bat. Then you brought the issue here and continued. You also left out key information and tried to paint the situation in an entirely different light. I have no problem with you or anyone else questioning my decisions or how I got to them. I have no problem explaining myself. I do have a problem when you, or any other user, seemingly attempts to cherry pick certain points in a conversation to paint one picture while completely omitting other key facts that would paint a much different picture. The other point Tempest touched on is the fact if we spelled out the rules to some 1000 page lawyer validated novel someone would try to find a loophole to worm out of trouble. For those that even bothered to read it at all which wouldn't be many. So they're kept as simple as possible. We even just updated them to reflect how the site has changed some but yet kept them roughly the same length as before. There is such a thing as the spirit of the rules, as well as the letter of the rules. Now yes this does open up some issues to moderator interpretation of our rules but in the VAST majority of cases we mods have already discussed the user and incident behind the scenes. As we had done with you case in fact. If the issue is not a clear cut violation, but rather in the "grey area", we discuss it first so we can get each others opinions. Now, as for you specifically I am going to spell out the problems we have with your behavior so there is no confusion. First and foremost your habit of arguing with moderators and debating the semantics of what constitutes arguing, civil debating, or being insulting is a problem. It is one thing to ask for clarification or inform us that was not your intent. It is another to instead argue with the moderator in question and insist you were not violating the rules by your definition of what constitutes arguing or civil discussion. We tell users to stop arguing when it becomes apparent that here is no actual debate going on, but rather simply 2 sides pushing their views with neither giving an inch of ground. Such as with you and bonham. Which is why I said in the thread the discussion was over because no matter who was at fault it was obvious further "discussion" was going nowhere and there was no point to continue on. You have gotten into such other arguments with other users as well and have been told to stop doing that. Nobahn sent you a PM on the matter I believe. You have often been rude towards other users by being condescending and insulting when talking to other users about a show or topic. You have in the past inferred fans of shows you do not like are less than intelligent. You've been reported by other users for such behavior and derailing threads with that behavior, along with your arguments with other users. There have been complaints about some of your comments being sexist or rude towards women. Your debate in the Paranoia Agent thread about what constitutes a period and arguing about cramps with Hope is a fine example. You accused a user of "flamebaiting" you but yet you continued to argue with that user. You continued to antagonize the user instead of simply reporting them if you felt they were being rude. That is again another thing you have done before as well. And to be fair other users who have gotten into arguments with you in the past have also been warned for their own transgressions. You've gotten into what equates to argues of semantics with other users. Such as the "debate" over symbolism in the Paranoia Agent thread which went hand in hand with the other issue. You generally have an inability to consider any other view point than your own. When other users attempt to "debate" topics with you there is no give and take or anything that would constitute a debate. You just argue semantics of some sort and refuse to consider their views. In short, your attitude quite often is not conducive to any sort of positive discussion and upsets other users while often derailing threads from positive discussion or the topic at hand. The issue you mentioned of quotes was addressed because you were quoting only bits of user's posts to present a cherry picked argument (such as here) and twist the user's meaning from what was intended. You did so without quoting their name as well and the user(s) complained about it and reported it. They did not appreciate having their words misconstrued with the improper quotation. That was why Nobahn gave you the warning to quote people properly and use their name. For all these reasons you have been warned before and now once again. The fact that these sort of behaviors have continued despite previous warnings is why you were now given a final warning to converse civilly with other users and act properly, or face moderation. Given the amount of offenses you have we could have simply put you on moderation right from the start of this whole situation. Instead the decision was made to give you that final warning. I believe I have typed out more than enough explaining the situation. Either you can heed the past and present moderator warnings or you can choose not to. Up to you. |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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Out of everything you said this sticks out the most. I've asked (or at least recall asking) for examples of this because I went through my post history including the five arguments I've been with people (six counting this topic). At no point when re-reading my posts do I see things such as name calling, telling people they have questionable intellect, patronize anyone, or aimed anything derogatory toward anybody during my stay. Could someone please inform me what I am doing constitutes as insulting because I do not see it.
No offense, but I have to call foul on this. The debate was about interpreting the source a type of pain being felt. The reviewer of the article thought it was something else and I agreed with him on it. I admitted I lost the debate when a factual citation was brought in to state the cause.
This is the second most out-standing thing in your statement. This is a misconception people have on me on other parts of the internet and I will clarify here (first time here, time number 12 or so in general), I don't have an inability to see what others see, I disagree with them. I do not find their views inferior or anything of the sort nor do I diminish their intellect, I disagree with it. Now for your overall post. I admit I can be abrasive and at no point do I intend to insult people or derail topics. The problem seems to be that the lexicon I normally use appears to be brash rather than polite where it is normally polite where I go. For the most part I either comment about a current event or I review a work through my own perspective, regardless of what the general consensus is. Sometimes I will ask why something is appealing, but I do not attempt to berate other people for liking things I don't and vice versa. As for the private message I sent to you in hindsight I was abrasive and I am sorry for it, I have had a bad history with corrupt moderators in the past and whenever someone doesn't show examples it tends to set off traumatic red flags in my brain although that doesn't excuse the harsh tone. As for the cherry picking and word twisting, I haven't seen it, but since I only respond to things I know I can answer I understand why people may have that view point of me. At this point the best solution for me is to use more polite words and clarify my tone even though I am not entirely sure how to accomplish that if I don't know what I have done counts as rude. I would like some help on this actually. For those that feel I was being offended I am sorry, I know what it is like to be bullied and I don't want to exert that on anybody. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5150 |
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^
You're digging yourself into a deeper hole here; my (unsolicited) advice is to carry on this discussion via PM. |
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