Forum - View topicGankutsuou vs. Speed Grapher.
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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I don't understand how the majority of The Internet loved "Gankutsuou--The Count of Monte Cristo" yet hated "Speed Grapher".
They both have large elements of the same story (The Count of Monte Cristo), yet I have yet to find someone else remark on the similarities. Thus to praise Gankutsuou's story while denigrating Speed Grapher's seems a high point of irony to me. It seems as though a great many people let themselves be caught up in the same 2 "flaws" of Speed Grapher, and refuse to even give the show a chance due to them. Those flaws being the Euphorics and the "pornographic content". In comparison between the 2 shows, "weirdness" of the Euphorics in Speed Grapher are negated by the weird art style of Gankutsuou. Additionally, to call out Speed Grapher on having people who transform into monsters is ludicrous. This is anime, part of the allure of the medium is that things like that can happen. If we condemn the Euphorics here, then we must condemn the witches in Witch Hunter Robin and the Proxies in Ergo Proxy equally. When we have anime where people can turn into logs, and angsty boys are charged with giant robots to save the world, it is folly to decry a mere transformation scene. Hitting closer to home, the classic Darker than Black features characters who are essentially the same thing as Euphorics. Full Metal Alchemist features plot elements and characters with abilities which are vastly more preposterous. Yet these shows are spared similar rebuke. I see many a complaint about the "pornographic" nature of Speed Grapher. It seems to always be taken as a cheap method of ensnaring viewers. Why is the idea that these scenes were shown moreso to convey to the viewer that society had fallen to new lows, to show that society had become effete and that such decadence and lewdness was shown to convey that? Establishing that society has become effete and moribund explains the actions and viewpoints of all the principle characters. To corroborate this idea, I submit the well-known complaint about the nebulous art and jerky animation for these "pornographic" scenes. Instead of being mere "bad animation", perhaps it was a stylistic choice to ensure that there was minimal erotic potential in the scenes, as so to allow the viewer to focus on their aforementioned purpose. The only theory I can come up with is that few viewers actually read The Count of Monte Cristo, as Suitengu is much closer to Edumond Dantes (The Count) than the purported count in Gankutsuou. His whole storyline is much closer to the original book as well. (Also, that book has some extremely perverted, lewd, and brutal content...like Speed Grapher..) The Count of Monte Cristo is a classic tale, and Speed Grapher's homage to it is far greater than that of the show which puts the tale in the title. By casting The Count (Suitengu) as "the villian", the show adds a tactful element of moral ambiguity. Then, in a surprising move, the show allows both him and the "hero" (who wasn't really against Suitengu) to accomplish their goals in the ending. Novel ideas, like having Suitengu claw his way up to wealth and power himself, rather than bequeathed a trove of treasure by a benefactor were nice adaptations of the original story. Indeed, one has to ask who was "the villain" in Speed Grapher? Like Ergo Proxy, Chrono Crusade, or Princess Mononoke, the answer is not cut and dry. Such moral ambiguity is not found in the rather bland shows that Speed Grapher is mistakenly lumped in with. ANN's review claims that the ending to speed grapher is predictable. I contest this. Who would predict that the "villain" would actually succeed in his plans, and that the "hero" would become a tragic character? This rarely happens in any form of entertainment. "Happily ever After" with the heroes riding off into the sunset is far more common than this. In contrast, Gankutsuou was rather cut-and-dry. Not bad, but not worlds better as claimed even by ANN itself. Yet Gankutsuou is hailed as a great if not exemplary show, and is proudly displayed in collections, while Speed Grapher is relegated to bargain bins and is the subject of scathing unjust criticism. It has been the butt of jokes for 6 years running now. Speed Grapher is to Gonzo as the venerable Stephen Foster is to ADV. Just look at the official ANN reviews for both shows (and then some of the remarks on Stephen Foster) and the disparity is blatant. Food for thought. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7988 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Personally they both rank the same in my book, but for different reasons of course. Speed Grapher is quite highly underrated.
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18271 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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There are two very simple reasons why Gankutsuou is highly-regarded and Speed Grapher isn't:
1) Gankutsuou's visuals are vastly superior - and this point should not even be close to debatable. 2) The writing on SG is, frankly, crap. The original Japanese dialog is frequently awkward, the plotting beats the series' central point (the rich and powerful will always exploit the poor and weak) to death, the storytelling goes out of its way to abuse Kagura in almost every conceivable way, and the writing has no degree of subtlety and little sense of nuance. The entire series felt entirely too much like an object lesson in trying to prove that Gonzo could, indeed, produce a "mature" title, and a forced one at that. The story didn't generate one ounce of sympathy from me towards Suitengu, either, since he was arguably doing things that were even worse than what was done to him and his sister and ruining totally innocent people in the process. Gankutsuou may have been more interpretive, but it handled the material it covered with much greater grace, style, and class and did a far better job of getting you to actually care about its characters. |
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braves
 Posts: 2309 Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas) |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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I also do not see this "bad animation" that everyone goes on about. The art & animation in Gankutusou is oft cited as a detriment of the show, or something that a viewer has to "acquire a taste for" before the show can be enjoyed. The justification given for awarding Gankutsuou a "pass" on its art issues is that the story is so amazing that a viewer will ultimately be rewarded for persevering over the art. Speed Grapher is not awarded this same luxury of a "pass" on this same "flaw", and its story is much superior. How is this justified? Key-
And Edmond Dantes did not? The death of even one those responsible for his jailing had immense fallout on innocent people. The destruction of business in the book had fallout on innocent people. Even though Edmond tried to minimize the fallout, he did not succeed by a long shot. In Speed Grapher, the people Suitenguu had to take vengeance upon were so powerful and intertwined with society that for them to fall, everything had to. If Edmond Dantes had been forced to go up against the King of France, I am sure the results would have matched Suitengu versus the Prime Minister of Japan. As such, I don't see the merit in your complaint. Additionally, in helping the Tennozu Group rise to such prominence, innumerable lives were enriched. Certainly more were helped by the rise of the Group than by its fall. Even if you don't "believe" in trickle-down economics, there were still an obvious amount of new jobs generated for employ within the Group, and the semi-phallic tower lead to a demand for resources and construction labor, which created new jobs in positions outside of the Group. I do not believe that the viewer was supposed to feel sympathy for Suitengu. The idea was that the viewer would see that Suitengu, on his ruthless quest for revenge, was actually destroying a greater evil, and raise the question of is the use of evil to combat a greater evil acceptable? Hence the moral ambiguity. Also, you weren't supposed to sympathize with Edmond Dantes either, as he was a cold-hearted ruthless man on a mission who did the same things as Suitengu. To sympathize with Dantes and not Suitengu would be interesting indeed. Futhermore, I was unaware that one had to sympathize with an arbitrary character for a show to be considered good. (To note, I consistently refer to Dantes as the Dantes in the actual book. This suffices as the idea behind Gankutsuou is that its Count of Monte Cristo and the book's are the same, no?) Also, what does the writing have to do with the merit of the show? Also, which of the 2 "writings" do you refer to, or is it both? If the dub's writing sucked, that's on Christopher Bevins, and has no merit against the overall plot of the show, which is what my comparison argument focuses on. The same goes for the Japanese writer for the Japanese dub. However, not being fluent in Japanese, I find that I for one can not judge the caliber of the Japanese writing for the show. The only thing I can judge is the writing in the subtitles which has absolutely no relevancy. Last edited by Echo_City on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I haven't seen Gankutsuou yet so I can't say about the specific comparison. However, I can tell you why Speed Grapher sucked: It tries about ten times too hard. Instead of applying any sort of nuance to express the level of corruption and depravity they want to show, they just make everything really really extravagant and over the top. It just seems stupid though. So instead of the show actually being mature, it just plays at being mature which actually is the antithesis of real maturity.
I mean, you mention the euphorics. Perfect example. I don't have a problem with them turning into monsters. What I have a problem with is the completely inane and random fetishes they base them on. Flexibility? Teeth? Diamonds? Come on. Those are just stupid. I can think of a dozen far more genuinely creepy ones just from the real world weird shit you encounter on the internet. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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Why do you mention creepy? The idea is to show you how truly effete society has become, in which case showing the lengths people will go to in order to satisfy their "stupid" fetishes is ideal. Also, to those who don't also have a particular fetish, any fetish appears "inane and random". The show wasn't supposed to creep you out or entertain any sort of perversion that the viewer might have. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't Freezing or something like Elfen Lied/Higurashi. It's not quasi-porn and it isn't horror. So turning into diamond is rejected, but what about turning into a grey, fanged indestructable creature whose one weakness is the entombed skeleton of the human who he is linked to? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me, but it didn't ruin the show in my eyes. (Greed, FMA) Do you accept Envy in Full Metal Alchemist? He can transform into anything. How could you not find that equally ridiculous?
The show needed to establish that there were people so corrupted by lust for their own desires that the viewer could believe that they wouldn't even bat an eye at a notion like selling a young girl and boy into slavery. Such palpable evil can not be "nuanced", and certainly not in 24 episodes. The show also needed to demonstrate how truly evil the "powers that be" were, in order to establish a sense of understandable justice in Suitengu's actions. Suitengu's actions are clearly meant to be seen as justified, as it needed to be estableshed that he is no pure villain. Antihero, perhaps. If he were the villain, then all of the focus on his actions concurrent with Saiga would have been seen as using dramatic irony as a shortcut in story telling, as opposed to showing two seemingly opposed forces interact. Last edited by Echo_City on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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naninanino
 Posts: 680 |
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Both are fantastic shows, but I don't get what you're trying to say. That Speed Grapher is closer to the original novel? Not relevant here.
The reasons why I liked both shows are quite different. Let's just say that I liked the drama in both, but the shows presented them in very different ways. I could get into the messed up mind set from the get go in Speed Grapher, while Gankutsuou seemed to be more orthodox style of writing, despite how the artwork may make it seem like. Also, Duran Duran. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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It is relevant here, that is part of my point. If two shows tell the same story, yet one advertises that it tells this story, while the other does not, why is one lauded for its story while the other one is ridiculed? Both shows tell the same story, the Count of Monte Cristo. What I find most interesting is that Speed Grapher tells the tale of The Count of Monte Cristo better than does Gankutsuou, a show whose claim to fame is its telling of said tale. It's even in the show's title.
I still lament how Funi couldn't get the rights to Girls on Film. The song completely fit the show, and the show lost a lot without it. Funimation replaced both the first opening and Girls on Film with the lesser 2nd intro and the BGM from the show entitled "Shutter Speed", which was an ironically boring and slow song which did NOT set the proper pace for the show. Maybe Funi hobbled the show as it came out of the gate (it did), but this is ANN where it is possible for people to see past outer ugliness and see "inner beauty"...though apparently only with select titles. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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That's either an oxymoron or you are a NEET. |
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darkhappy1
 Posts: 495 Location: PA |
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Woah there. I feel as if I must respond to this immediately, although I'll have more time to type tomorrow. Please tell me that the animation of the boy hurriedly running back to his father (then falling and getting back up) in episode 2 was not sloppy, or that the the hail of bullets that Saiga dodged as he took pictures in one of the flashbacks in episode 7 was convincing. I usually overlook what people may call "bad animation" because the movements depicted are still mildly convincing or are insignificant to the overall action, but even I burst out laughing at these scenes. Sure, the animation wasn't always that bad, and there were moments of fluidity (such as the head-twisting in episode 1), but it was never consistently fluid after the first episode. Just passable. Gankutsuou's "art problem," however, cannot be attributed to budgetary restraints but its layering style. Even so, there is more praise for the art and animation in Gankutsuou (especially for the scene Haidee's entrance to the Opera House in episode 6) than Speed Grapher because there aren't as many instances of choppiness and is consistently fluid. It certainly never degraded to the level of the running boy in Speed Grapher, either. These are my observations of the art and animation that do not take into account the stories or their executions at all. I'd like to say some more, but that will have to wait until tomorrow. 
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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If it is passable, as you say, then why are you denigrating it?
I do not wish to argue the "finer points" of art & animation. I'm not an animation pedant, or otaku if you prefer, and ultimately hold the belief that such an argument is subjective. Additionally I do not have materials ready for such a debate. Why? Well frankly, I liked speed grapher, it's on my shelf right now (both versions). I didn't care for Gankutsuou and won't spend money on dvds as odds are I'll never rewatch it. The only reason I even brought up art and animation is to link to the hypocrisy between the 2 shows in terms of "dealing with the art", an argument which comes back to the story and execution of the show, which is the impetus for me even posting this thread. With that, it seems that any sort of debate on the comparative merits of the art of the 2 shows is a derivative argument, as my posts about art are just an attempt to justify why the shows' art should have no bearing in a comparison. (Again, If a pass can be awarded for "bad" art & animation in Gankutsuou, why can not one be awarded to Speed Grapher for "bad" art, even if the qualifiers which earn the art the "bad" rating are different?) All of that said, darkhappy1 I render a plea of nolo contendere in absentia to your pending art debate concerning the 2 shows. (Little too much Phoenix Wright  )
However there is one thing I want to comment on pertaining to art:
If apparent realism derived by an action or dramatic sequence's animation is a criterion for the sequence to earn a "good art rating", then pretty much every beloved anime out there just went down the crapper. Did the energy blasts in DBZ look convincing? No. Did any of the combat in Berserk look convincing (Dude witih buster sword cleaving through armor)? Nope. (et cetera) This is probably a road best left untraveled. Last edited by Echo_City on Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Because "bad" art is a very different thing from bad animation. The fluidity and and consistency with which one frame transitions to the next are far less subjective merits than what one considers ugly in a still image. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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So in a nutshell you're condemning a show with a story because of how the images flowed together? I could understand if you criticized the show for how the narrative flowed together, but to damn a story just on superficial presentation is like railing against a well-written book because the pages tended to stick together. Was Speed Grapher unwatchable due to the animation? Not to me, not by a long shot. Thus, I wouldn't consider its animation to be bad. However, I entertain the idea that some viewers could be more obsessed with animation quality than I, and as such rank a show based primarily off of that, and indeed refuse to watch it on merits of its animation. It's possible, as I find certain story & plot elements to be repulsive and won't watch a show because of them. I can't really justify putting animation at parity with story & plot elements when ranking a show, but to each his own....I guess? Now, I realize that (again) art is subjective. To me, art that appears realistic (not exclusively realism) is "good". Non-realistic art is "bad" to me. I say this only so you can begin to comprehend my frustration when I am finding a show with a superior story and art ranked vastly below one with inferior art and story for what, as I am not an animation otaku, a prodigiously petty reason. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I'm not condemning Speed Grapher at all, because I've never seen it. I'm just pointing out that art and animation are quite different. |
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