Forum - View topicOffensive Anime Otakus
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Hikaru_Kirei
 Posts: 18 Location: Earth. ^-^; |
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Erm..First of all, I would like to apologize if this topic is placed in the incorrect forum. I'm fairly new to this site, (in fact, I have only joined less than an hour ago...) and I didn't spot a General Discussion forum here, so I thought this would be the most appropriate.
Hee. Anyway, back on topic. ^-^; Honestly now, isn't it irritating how much anime fans may rant about some mishaps in their favorite shows? I've been hearing so many complaints, that it has truly began to irk me. Due to the fact of all the new shows arriving here at 'Adult Swim', it was quite difficult for me to tolerate those who made rather offensive statements of the editing. "Lykeee...OMG!one!!eleven! They lyke, TOTALLY RUINED HIS VOICE!" "Pahaha! I KNOW! DUDE! They SuxxOrs! THEY MESSED UP ON THE NAME!!!" "Ugghh!! AMERICA EDITING SUCCCKssss.." First of all, we truly don't have the right to say that. We are all entitled to our opinions, but you don't necessarily need to bash our country. Secondly, despite on how many people agree with you, just because the voices don't sound the same, and the altered the accent on the names, that doesn't mean you enjoy the anime any less. They're still the same characters, with the same personality, following the same plot. Yes, the editing at times may not compare to that of the Japanese shows, but why should the minor things irritate you to the point it's a major issue? Of course, I would be hypocritical to say I haven't felt this way, but I don't take it to that extent...By trying to be calm and glancing at both sides, you find that the "Americanized" shows that have been showing through the television is quite pleasing. It's rather hurtful to know that some of these people haven't even been interested in anime for a year and continue to say these things...[sniffle] ;.; It's quite upsetting. If I haven't been clear in this post, please-- Discussion: -Any arguments against my statement. -Any agreement. -Have you dealt with this situation before? Eep...I know I'm going to be flamed for this. >.<; [hides] |
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Mitsuhide A.
Posts: 200 Location: somewhere where you aren't |
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First of all im not quite sure where the term otaku comes into play sense you mentioned people who love anime for less then a year but ill let that go. I am, However, slightly irrated by the above statment. I'm not quite sure what gives you that right to say that a person can only judges the quality of an anime based on characters, personality and plot. If that were that case then i guess i could say that a novel can be enjoyed as an anime. The fact remains that over a period of time within a series, especially of the animated variety, people begin to become attached to certain voices and the characters they represent. For them, it creates an experience with both familiarity and enjoyment. With the characters changed, the experience is tainted, becomes foreign to them and thus is also less enjoyable. I dont necessarily think that the language matters so much. It's more the voices that are first associated with the characters. For example, when i watched DBZ on CN I got used to the voices as they were, but in the middle of the Freeza saga the voices changes and my interest in the show declined from that point. I do agree that anime on American televsion is a great thing in that it introduces a niche product to a larger market, in addition to providing "free" anime programming to anime lovers like myself. This, of course, does come at some price with the heavy editing a localization processes that most shows must go through. At times though, i feel as though the new viewer are being lied to with the amount of edits and changes being made. Its almost almost as though they air one product and yet sell another. In the end though, i personally dont care too much about edits, but i can understand the points of those who wish to view more authentic japanese anime. I guess without the elements that are edited out, some feel that there is nothing really that separates anime from american cartoons. (not that either of the two are bad) But dont get too bent out of shape with the people who rant about edits. There will always be people out there who rant and complain about something so theres no need to become too peeved over it. Just ignore and move on  (kinda hard for me to make that last statement considering that my post has just contridicted it.)
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Hikaru_Kirei
Posts: 18 Location: Earth. ^-^; |
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Erm..well, I didn't state that a person can only judge an anime on those traits, because I know I for one couldn't. I was just stating the fact that if you truly do care about the show you're watching, it shouldn't matter too much. I understand that people do get rather attached to the voices and tones because of the representation it presents towards their character. That is fine. What I was truly trying to nail was the fact that people constantly whine about it in a childish manner. Apologies, this post was more of a rant since I didn't want to confront my friends that they were irritating me about their frustration over and over again...I don't usually speak so rashly, but I suppose eveyone has their moments. Sorry for the confusion. ;.; [sniffle] Hee. Anyway, thankies, Mitsuhide A. for posting your input and thoughts. ^-^ I respect them quite well, and I'm pleased to see a very balanced response. --[EDIT] As for the otaku term, apparently, I had learned that it made a simple generalization for fans. A few had defined them as dedicated; more "experienced" fans. o.o; I truly didn't know which one to believe, and I didn't want to leave my title plain...[since I'm so pathetic, and otaku sounds prettiful. x.x;] Apologies, again. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11448 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I find the term otaku to be somewhat of a bother. I've always felt that if you're a fan of anything, you're a fan, and that should be pretty much self-explanatory. There's not really a need to label and differentiate one fan from another, though the only reasoning I always seem to find is that you sometimes need a way to tell "a fan" and "a fanboy/girl" apart from the rest of the crowd. For instance, I'm a big fan of the Rurouni Kenshin franchise. I like watching the anime, listening to the music, trying to learn about its creation, discussing elements of the story, characters, and blah blah blah in a friendly and calm reserve with others. Then you have other "fans" out there for shows like.. I don't know, Dragon Ball Z, Inu Yasha, or Trigun. It doesn't really bother me, but I've seen many of those so called fans make fools of themselves from time to time with their overzealous fandom and expressions of how "cool" or "da bomb" or "rOxxorz" something is. And it's not that I won't admit I probably like something for that same reason, but I often take a less emphatic approach because that's just the way I am. I just don't want other people to get the wrong idea and group me with them and think I'm some kind of lowly, wretched blubberpuff (or whatever silly word Mr. Burns would use). Other than that reason, I don't really care for the word and prefer not use it. Anyway, back to your original topic  .
I don't really care if fans complain or get all uppity when a show they're really into gets a treatment that's not on par with whatever standards they have. Heck, I'm just as guilty. Any title I pick up on DVD has to have it's dubbing "approved" before I sometimes let a friend borrow it or show it to them as a group. If I recommend something, I'll either force them to watch it in Japanese or let them listen to it in English respectively (pending on my own personal evaluation of the production). I know it sounds prude and elitist, but I haven't been wrong in any of those hunches yet and they haven't complained at all. Of course there are times when they get a title of their own and we eventually may develop a difference in opinion here and there, but I don't take it personal as long as they ultimately like what they're watching, and if they didn't like it, I tell them to try watching it in Japanese, and sometimes it works out for the better. Basically, if they won't agree with me, I just keep my mouth shut and try give them subtle hints (if I feel the effort is worth it, like I did for GTO and Azumanga Daioh). If they ignore my efforts and don't listen, then it's no big deal. There are more things to look forward to in life and we just simply move on. Don't worry about whatever differences you share with your friends and just keep doing what you. As long as it makes you happy and doesn't bother anyone else unnecessarily, things should be fine  .
(*Whew*).. sorry for so much typing... I hope that made some kind of sense. |
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Aokage
 Posts: 160 Location: The Chaparral of California |
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Otaku is not the apt term. Though it is commonly thrown around as some word for the anime elitest and hardcore...Otaku is actually a Japanese insult, refering to a person who only engages in activities that take place in the house (video games and anime for instance). Hardcore or elitest would probably be the more accurate term.
Edits are legitimate complaint. Though some things are created soley for money and hype, there are a lot of products that are created from passion. A director has a vision in their mind of what they hope to visually and aurally achieve. This is true for a television series, cartoon or a movie. When people edit something, it removes a part of the vision. Some of us just prefer to see what the creator had in mind. Not what the distributors in our region, want us to see. To a lesser degree, voice acting is a part of that. Some western voice actors just don't share the same fervor, as their eastern counterparts. And sometimes, they can deliver improper emotion to a character. Just look at Samurai Champloo and how aged Fuu and Jin sound in english. Look at the Devilman OVA or better yet, Bastard. I dare you to try and say that the english voice for Dark Schnieder, was of equal quality to the Japanese voice. I triple dare you. If you said it was well done, you'd only be lying to yourself. I can agree that some people nitpick far too much. Even I can be and have been, guilty of that. But just the same, there is truth to most complaints about domestic anime releases. From One Piece on Fox Box, to changing Jin's name from Jin to Jean, in Samurai Champloo. Not all of the complaining, is unwarranted. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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There's like 3 type of anime fans.
The one that only watches sub and hate all dubs. Occationally they will say they like a few dub like Cowboy Bebop so they appear to be nazi-dub hater, but eventurally every dub will displease them no matter how good it's done. Even if the dub is good, they can complain that it doesn't match the japanese dub, which is another stupid reason because as long as the acting is good and fit the character it doesn't matter if it should sound like the japanese dub. Japanese also used women to play young boys in popular anime because I guess young japanese boy sound like middle-age women, but it's awkward if it's done in english. The second fan is the one that love all dub and prefer his anime dub even if it's bad. His/her main anime expoure is CN or cable tv and dvd. They dont' like subtitle because it's hard to read or other reason, but they always insist on dub even if it's bad. And third type of fan are the reasonable one. They enjoy good dub and can differiate a bad one. They enjoy japanese audio with subtitle just as much as a good dub. don't see much of these fan now a day because everyone seem to be one sided with their bias opinion. The issue at hand though is that the people who you're saying "ooh americna companies suxxor" are probably high school kid that fall into the sub-only fangroup. They leecher all their anime from fansub (that's why they're online) and watch free anime on cable tv and refuse to buy any dvd because they feel like they're getting ripped off or use excuse like they're poor. They don't talk much, because most of their post consist of 1 sentence. They will always recommend fansub to people who's asking for recommendation to buy and they always whine when a title get license for a bigger audience. These guys are leeching whiners and there are a lot on this forum. The only resolution is just ignore them or try to educated (argue) them but that hardly ever works because they're still think all dub suck. |
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dgreater1
 Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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Also, there are fans who bash around saying "this show sux!" even though it's really good. Why don't they say "I don't like this show" instead. It's like they're saying that everyone agrees that the show really suck. Those fans lack what they called "MANNERS", don't they know that whether they hate a show or not, it won't change the fact that it was a good show.
Last edited by dgreater1 on Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shadow_guyver
 Posts: 307 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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I have long disliked those who blindly badmouth Dubs and edits to anime. Sure there are serious complaints. They way the charcters in Initial D talk changes their personas considerably, especially Ryousuke. Sanji's English voice? Atrocious.
But then there is total nonsense, like name changing. In some series with pun-ladden names, like a lot of Akira Toriyama's work, one can almost make a case, except that the puns are predominately Japanese puns, so an English speaking audience wouldn't notice the puns to begin with. Bottom line most edits are done so that the average person on the street can understand what's going on better. Well, besides those that edit for television, as those edits tend to focus more on acceptablity. Aokage: About the fervor in which voice actors give their performances. I wonder if you are fluent in Japanese. I ask because of a story I heard. An anime fan had always loved the Japanese voice acting in a particular series, I think it was the original Dirty Pair. Then the fan learned how to speak Japanese, and became quite fluent. The watched the series again, and were suprised to discover that the voice acting was actually terrible. So basically, a lot of fans only think that Japanese voice actors are better, when sometimes they aren't. |
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darkhunter
Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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That is an interesting story. I know a lot of sub only fan don't know japanese and think the language is "cool" to begin with so every japanese dub is "perfect" for them. Dubbing is harder then what people think, because japanese have quirks like outrageous "outburst" (like in FMA) from time to time. I think almost any "new" fans who watch champloo dub on CN will like it because it's not bad at all. It's not like their voice is soo out of touch with the english speaking system. It's not Gin has a girly voice or any other type of voice that totally doesn't fit him at all. Overall the impression is good from a lot of my non-anime fanatic friend The problem is that people watch the japanese audio with subtitle so much that they grown attach to it and identify the character with it. Then when they hear it in English, they feel like it doesn't sound "perfect" or cheated. In other words, they don't adapt well to changes. To them though, I doubt any english speaking voice actor they used is going to fit the japanese perfectly. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Although I've fielded this one before, I haven't in awhile: While there may be some truth to this, the fluency in the language isn't really a very strong argument, especially in your example. When it comes to performances, some themes, emotions, etc. are universal. How many people attend the Opera that don't know a bit of Italian, yet are moved beyond words? The performance encompasses all. Emotion, pitch, volume - all these and more are expressed beyond the literal meaning of the words. Moreover, the point behind subtitles is the guide - that which we apply to the performance to fully attempt to understand what is going on. In your example, the fan learned how to speak Japanese. This suggests that they experienced many different facets, reshaping their worldview, enjoyments, etc. It could also mean that they weren't as much of a fan of the series anymore. Maybe they found some other show that did have better acting in general - and made the comparison that way. In a situation like that fluency doesn't say much. I myself am not fluent in Japanese. While I know a little bit of it, I haven't applied myself in that area (though I probably should.) Even so, I have experienced a broad range of acting on the Japanese side of things. I've heard a number of lousy performances. Because of my background, and my areas of study, I'm also having my views change bit by bit when it comes to the performing arts. Chalking it up to fluency seems like a broad sweeping generalization at best - an insult to performing arts at its core. |
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shadow_guyver
Posts: 307 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Godai, I wasn't chaulking it all up to fluency, just suggesting a possibilty (cursed late night posting, I should really try to avoid it). I meant that because these fans don't speak the language, they can't pick up on the subtleties(or lack there of) in the performances that really provide you with an understanding of the character. Though still, perhaps my example was a bit off.
I was thinking more along the lines of how the characters talk and what that tells us about them. Take Rurouni Kenshin. The sword collector in the Kyoto Arc, what was his name? Cho? Jo? Something like that. He spoke with, if I remember correctly, an Osakan accent. The implications of such an accent would have been completely lost on non-Japanese speakers. But American English had an accent that I have been told possesses similar connotations. And so he was given a voice with a southern twang. As for emotion being a universal theme, this is true, but languages isn't neccesarily the medium. I have a terrible time on the phone, as I transmit emotions mostly through visual siganls, like my face. I'm not saying voice acting can't portrey emotion, but for me at least, voice acting is only a small part of the emotional experience. I should probably change my closing statement. Rather than what I had posted, I close with the following. Many "fans" claim that watching with subtitles gets you a better understanding of the original vision of the anime's creators. But without an understanding of the language used, one might not catch the implications of a certain phrase, gesture, or accent. (After looking at both my posts, it's obvious that my point has changed from post to post. I blame the time of night I posted. Like I said, I should avoid late night posting.  )
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Captain Crotchspike
 Posts: 355 Location: Phoenix, AZ |
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Another thing is, there's more than one way to play a character. Often times, the Japanese actor will go about playing a role one way and the English actor will play it another - this doesn't necessarily mean one is "wrong", it's possible for them to both be appropriate for the character, but appropriate in different ways. When you get so used to a character being acted one way, it's hard to get used to them being done another.
As an example: In the two English dubs for DBZ, the first Vegeta, Brian Drummond, plays up the more psychotic side of the character. The second voice (FUNimation dub), Christopher R. Sabat, plays a more regal Vegeta. I personally like them both. I even like the Japanese Vegeta. However, I'm used to Sabat's Vegeta, as I've heard his the most - although for a while, I had a hard time accepting his, since I was so used to Drummond's. I'm still not entirely sure how to tier the original Japanese version in my mind (I've heard his the least). Is one necessarily any more right than the other for playing the character for what they saw them for? Is it impossible for more than one to be just as good (or even better) for playing it their way? There's more than one way to skin a cat blah blah etc. |
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Espeon
 Posts: 105 Location: Australia |
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I'm one of the people who complain .. though I only complain on something I feel very deep about. Mostly when a voice changes for the worse. Most other stuff i dont mind kinda like watching One Piece in english and then rewatching it in Japanese with subs. Editeds, name changes and not to good voices
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Hikaru_Kirei
Posts: 18 Location: Earth. ^-^; |
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A sincere thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread. I was very happy to see your posts with your opinions backed up with a very good argument with facts. ^-^
Ooh...okie dokies. Thankies Aokage for that clarification. ^-^ I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Also, thank you for your thoughts, and I'll certainly compare those series to the Western dubs one of these days.
Hee. Actually it did, and I appreciate your words very much, Tony K. In some way, what you typed in your personal perspective broadened my horizons a bit. (Whee...^-^; Apologies if that sort of didn't make sense...rather early for me to be posting.)
Oddly enough, that statement in the parenthesis made me laugh. Is that weird..? Moving on, darkhunter I just love the way you broke down the "anime fan category" into three very descriptive parts. I agree with your statements, because that's how I seem to view those who enjoy watching anime.
Wowwies...dgreater1, I haven't really thought about that. Yes, we should have more people rather than say "This show sucks", should keep to their own opinions and use "I don't like the show." That would at least express their perspective on anime dubs in a more...erm..I suppose, nicer and knowledgable manner somehow.
Captain Crotchspike, that is quite true. There are more than one way to go about on a character. Also, I'm glad you mentioned the fact that sometimes both actors may clean up a little bit of their acting from one another, since I haven't really thought of that before. Expanded my thoughts quite a bit. ^-^ |
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milcor1
 Posts: 337 |
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Off topic but, can you make your font size a little bigger
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