Forum - View topicTravis Willingham: A reason to watch dubbed.
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mydog8u2
 Posts: 82 |
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I am well aware that, among anime fans, the topic of 'subs vs dubs' has surfaced countless times almost to the point of tedium. I had previously sat strictly with the former, thinking that all English dubs were doomed to sound unnatural, forced, and accordingly disingenuous. So many of Hayao Miyazaki's masterpieces have, in my opinion, been produced in poor-quality English dubs due to the lack of... well, the lack of MANY things. English dub-versions typically abound with poor translation of original script (writer's fault), poor interpretation of given script (voice-actor's fault), and a general sense of unnaturalness that emanates from what is meant to be a real dialogue between people.
Back in 2007 when I bought the DVD box set of Mushi-shi, I watched it in Japanese with subs like I normally do, and fell in love with it. Besides the poetic splendour of the episodic series, I was also captivated by the protagonist 'Ginko'. His character generated a quiet charisma tempered by wisdom and a pleasant sense of humour. In anime, I dare say that good voice acting constitutes at least half the character, and Japanese voice actor Yuto Nakano did well to complete Ginko, and consequently the entire series. I don't even understand Japanese but the language of 'voice-acting', I think, is universal. Perhaps I am giving too much credit to a single character when the excellence of Mushi-shi lies also with its beautiful art, animation and its conceptual uniqueness. But for me personally, Ginko provided the crucial narrative agency through which intense human affect and profound contemplations about life were powerfully conveyed. The experience was quite something else. Earlier this year, I found the box set collecting dust, and I decided to give the English dub a chance, knowing all too well the propensity of English voice actors to kill the original poetry. Travis Willingham has changed my perception of English dubbers. He is one of the very few voice actors who comes across as an actor who knows his subject material, namely the character within the thematic framework of the story. For the first time, I wasn't made to notice a divide between the animation and the voice, which is usually what I feel when listening to horrible dubs that not only fail to match the mouth movements of the character (which is surprisingly still an ongoing problem among many 'trained' voice actors), but also sound so hopelessly dissimilar to the personality of the character that the actor is meant to exude. While watching Mushi-shi in English dub, there was no Ginko/Travis divide. Travis WAS Ginko. The excellence of his voice-acting is attested by the near-perfect synchronisation of mouth movements while never sounding forced or overpronouncing words like many others tend to do. Most important is SUBTLETY. Travis knew eactly what tone and volume of voice he needed to speak in. When Pokemon-esque bubbliness and wackiness seemed to be the norm among voice-actors, Travis proved that understanding the character is pivotal. Travis also proved that anime can be voice-acted in English as to normalise certain terms that would otherwise be culturally inaccessible. In Mushi-shi, there were tonnes of Japanese terms that could have easily alienated the viewer, but Travis incorporated those terms ever so naturally into the English-translated script. I guess the English producers/translators deserve some credit too, but it was ultimately Travis who pulled it off with his voice acting. When English dubs of anime are commonly considered as half-baked tomfoolery, perhaps there are more Travis Willinghams out there who do the original series justice. I'm not sure if a topic of this nature is entirely appropriate alongside threads like "Is anime socially and politically liberal" (when did discussions become so hardcore on an anime forum?!?) but I just wanted to voice my appreciation of the noticeably improved quality in English dub. What do others think? Has the English dub reached new heights in terms of keeping alive the original charms of an anime title? Who is your favourite English voice actor? |
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Ausdoerrt
 Posts: 481 |
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I don't watch English dubs for several reasons. One is that you have to wait for them to come out, and I follow ongoing series. The other is that watching a series dubbed from one non-native language to another makes little sense to me. Third is that, while I've heard good male actors, female voice-acting in Eng. dubs makes my ears bleed (Haruhi would be one example).
It's good that you found something that you like. I personally regard dubs as an inferior form of subs.
If you look inside the topic you mentioned, you'll realize that it has a smart-looking name but no actual valuable content. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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This line, mydog8u2 (but didn't), is why both sides of the "sub v. dub" argument make hypocrite statements. Both sides are taking in too much consideration when challenging one is better than the other. Frankly, both can be good or both can be bad. You mentioned poetry. What do you mean by this? Clearly, the Japanese language can not be deemed poetry, for its language is based on phonetics. If you're referring to the script, therein lies the issue with translation. Case in point: Show me anywhere to which "Akari" is the definition to "sempai" when translating Japanese to English. Even I, with my very basic understanding of Japanese, knows "sempai" does not mean "Akari". This example is pulled from Aria, a sub-only series. The script calls for an English adaptation to connect with its viewers by removing the true definition of "sempai" to that of the character being addressed. Some will find this appalling, if not insulting, simply because original dialogue was altered. Personally, I couldn't care less. The entire dialogue was still entertaining. Should Aria get a dub, I'm pretty sure we'll not here "sempai" used at all within the series. But this brings up the very point of your post. Travis Willingham is not a reason to watch dub. There are many great VAs who make a dub worthwhile. However, even a VA can be restricted on their performance capabilities due to the script. As an example, I'll use Monica Rial's voicing for Hazuki (Moonphase) and Asa (Shuffle!). Both voices are nearly identical, but in the case of Hazuki, it was irritating beyond words. So what sets them apart? The script. Hazuki was portrayed as a spoiled, whining brat whereas Asa was more mature. Even though the voices were identical, the script clearly specified how the character was to be portrayed. No amount of English translation will change this if it to remain as close to the original as possible. While I do prefer dubs myself, this is only because I don't enjoy reading while trying to watch an animated show. Never once have I complained about the translations of dub (or sub), and will not do so. It's pointless. If people really gave a damn, they'd learn Japanese and be done with the entire issue of translation. Yet... |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24543 |
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Almost? 
I'm a dub-lubber myself, but then again I'm a relatively new convert to anime so I haven't had the exposure to some of the truly horrible dubs that must exist from years past. So far, a few performances have stood out for me: Monica Rial as Hazuki in Moon Phase was perfect as a bratty tweeny vampire and a huge reason for my enjoyment of that series. The four leads in Welcome to the N.H.K. were all uniformly excellent, I thought, but Greg Ayres's scratchy, whiny timbre was absolutely spot on for the irritable otaku character he was playing. While watching Skip Beat! I couldn't help but think what an awesome job Luci Christian would do if she ever dubbed the Kyoko role. As much as I love dubs, I am grateful to fansubs for involuntarily exposing me to the seiyuus. Given a choice, I would almost certainly always go for a dub, but naturally when you have no choice...I don't speak a word of Japanese, but listening to Riga Kugimiya's Taiga from Toradora!, for example, was a real treat. Similarly, I thrill ever time Yuka Iguchi draws out Touma's name in To Aru Majutsu no Index - so kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii! eta: I didn't see PJ's post before I posted my own: hilarious we both cited Monica Rial's Hazuki performance, but clearly had very different reactions! |
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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<---gave a damn, and learned the language (to an elementary level). I understand what he means by poetry, he's using it as a substitute word for art or quality (I think). And I tend to agree, being fluent in English and knowing enough in Japanese to get by on the streets I really think the English cast is usually inferior. I don't mind reading the lines-just read the content quickly and catch a glance to see what's happening.
You're right Petrified, sometimes the script has a huge impact on how the VA comes across-but the OP addressed that, and I agree it's both VA and awkward translations that just really kill it for me. I don't see what's wrong with complaining about a dub that some audience feels is significantly inferior to the original. Last edited by Kirkdawg on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Hmm. It seems my words didn't come out well, so I'll apologize. I didn't mean to infer there's something wrong to complain, but I just found it odd that a "reason to watch dub" came down to one VA. I did read where mydog8u2 addressed the scope of the script, but this was dismissed when s/he quickly changed the subject to the VA's performance with no relation as I continued to read. What really struck me was his expectation, which was clearly destroyed. Given this, why shouldn't other dubs be given the same respect? No one's going to know how a dub is going to be received until they've experienced it. Once done, then I can understand the griping. Heck, just within two posts, Blood- and I disagree on Monica's voicing as Hazuki. I should note, though, I do agree with Blood- that Monica's performance of Hazuki was well done. I just didn't care for the voicing. Big difference. I've no doubt Travis' performance (and even voicing) were exceptional, but I couldn't help but notice the specific focus on one VA while dismissing every other one out there. I guess I'm just one to think one should try something before trashing it. Most dub replies seem to do this. I can see the valid points to some degree, but certainly not when it comes from an expectation. The OP emphasized this clearly. If anything, I see his reply as a "+1" for the dub side, limited as it is due to the specific VA. |
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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I agree with the points PetrifiedJello mentioned. You can't just mention one voice actor/actress. There are many. Another reason why people may watch dubs is how the dialogue can be faithful to the original. I watch my anime DVDs dubbed most of the time with the subs on to see how faithful they are to the translation. Yet another reason is because the anime that are Western setting can seem more believable when dubbed. An anime set in the USA or England would seem more enjoyable when dubbed because it is set in areas where English is the official language.
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18587 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Replace the bold-faced word with "some in the", pardner. You're definitely not speaking for everybody. |
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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That's exactly what the author stated, but thanks for reminding me. There was a thread like this about a month ago, indeed. Subs vs Dubs - I do realize that dub is inferior is most cases, but lately the dub's getting much better that even a sub lover like me give it a few tries here and there. I don't think I'll ever part my ways with subs, I just love the Japanese voice actors, their voices sound so natural on the characters. Sometimes when I see videos with Japanese voice actors talking, I find it really weird. Then I say to myself "Oh, his voice fitted that anime character much better than his human figure". It's really complicated to watch the same series in both Japanese and English, it just doesn't connect. So I always listen to Japanese audio instead. And just like it was already mentioned, that series coming out right now will take a year to hit the market in its dubbed format, which is just not viable in my case.
If everyone in the forum could do that I'd be a happy man. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8511 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Willingham was a decent Roy Mustang in the Fullmetal Alchemist dub (a dub which I really don't like), though he really only captured one facet of Mustang's personality. I blame poor directing by Mike McFarland.
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2634 |
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I agree Willingham is a great dub actor and definitely one of my favorites. He was great as Roy but like you said also fantastic as Ginko in Mushishi. I was really expecting Funimation to not pull off Mushishi but they definitely proved me wrong
I went to his panel at Otakon this year and he was a very amusing & entertaining guy. |
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bleachj0j
 Posts: 926 |
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wow never hear anyone say that. Glad somebody did not that it was a bad dub but overrated. Anyway I grew up on dub I'm the generation that saw saban's digimon and dbz dubs. Yugioh, pokemon. But I can watch both a dub and sub fine |
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mydog8u2
Posts: 82 |
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I must first apologise if I sounded presumptuous. Forgive me, it wasn't my intention. PetrifiedJello, you're absolutely right about how making generalised statements about either subs or dubs is VERY hypocritical, and I must try to clarify myself. The above statement that you have quoted is exactly the bias against English voice actors that I used to have but now don't. I witnessed the quality of Travis Willingham's voice acting and realised that dubs can be just as good as a subs.
Yes, the original anime ‘script’ is never Shakespeare, but what I actually meant was perfectly clarified by Kirkdawg. By ‘poetry’ I meant quality, or more precisely, the overall ambience of the series that relied so much on the mellowness of speech and subtle disposition of various characters with whom the protagonist ‘Ginko’ is able to empathise.
Again, you make a good point. I’m not sure if retaining every bit of the original Japanese script is feasible, let alone desirable. That certainly wasn’t the case with Mushi-shi (For example, ‘Nee-san’ and ‘Nii-san’ were substituted with names. Not furious over it). English should sound like English, but in order for that to happen you can’t just read the English-translated script; you have to act it, hence voice actor.
Script is very important, yes. But in the context of English dubs, by ‘script’ we are essentially talking about translation of original Japanese script. There’s only so much the translator can do when authorial license is next to non-existent. They can’t alter the original lines just so that a voice actor can shine. On the other hand, a voice actor is free to interpret the given words however they want. I mean, sure, they need to consult the writers and producers about how to go about it and they do receive some advice, but in the end, the producing/writing team won’t be there to coach the voice actor in every single facet. Writers translate and occasionally direct, but voice actors ‘deliver’, and it is precisely in the delivery of the lines where quality is at stake. It’s like in a basketball game where the coach tells the players exactly what to do, and they follow his advice because it’s the right game plan, but they end up losing anyway because they make too many air balls. You can’t really say the coach is to blame just because the team couldn’t deliver. Travis Willingham, however, was MVP. He made some careful interpretations of the script and performed the role of Ginko exceptionally well. As aforementioned, studying and understanding the character is paramount. Voice acting is still ‘acting’. Lastly, I didn’t mean that Travis Willingham is the ONLY decent actor out there, and I’m certainly not dismissing every other English VAs as sub par. Well, not anymore. All I’m saying is that Travis Willingham changed my biased perception of English dubs. I am going through all my anime collection and re-watching them one by one in English dub. Right now I’m watching Fullmetal Alchemist in dub (I had no idea that Travis did Roy Mustang!) By no means am I engaging in a mindless worship of just one English voice actor as the greatest of them all, but he’s the only one so far who has made an impact on my anime viewing experience. I’m not too familiar with the anime titles you’ve mentioned (would you recommend them?) |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Nothing to forgive nor apologize for. Truth be told, the reply was my second re-write, and I had forgotten to place my appreciation of your post. If anything, your post did a great job at explaining your expectation destruction by giving me solid reasons for such. I then took this (well, tried to anyway) and directed it towards a much larger audience regarding the sub v. dub debates. Rarely do those arguing such a defense do so while spewing out the tired "it destroys the art/originality and that's why it sucks" defense.
This helps. Hope people don't mind, but I'll be using this as a starter in other sub v. dub debates which are sure to prop up.
Nice analogy. Interesting, though, because usually when the team loses the game, the coach is to blame. Unfortunately, this coach is so prevalent it seems many sub supporters feel nothing's changed. Even though I try to understand their point, it's hard to do when fans are pointing to the wrong source. I can't imagine every VA in every dubbed anime is so horrid as to deem the entire dub worthless.
I've seen this argument before, or I should say, how it's lacking. It sure doesn't help when news comes out that VAs are competing for a role in a dub and seeing the script for the first time ever. This news, if anything, should at least instill a need to cut VAs some slack in this arena. How else are they to take the same approach as Travis did when there's scant time to do it? Personally, there are times in which I preferred the dub voicing over the Japanese actor. But I don't berate the entire Japanese dub for it. Some voices are just irritating. Performances, though, seem to be too strict in expectations. I'll side with the news (factual) and cut the VAs some slack.
And the other VAs? I'd like to read your opinions on them, if you don't mind. I'll take what you offer and apply to my educational side to generalize it in future readings to fans who can't expand their dislike past "it destroys the art" limitation.
Indeed, I would. I recommend all anime. After all, my opinion's worthless. Only the viewer can determine what they like or dislike. If you want to know more of how I feel about this series, check out my replies in the "What are you watching now" thread. Thanks, mydog8u2, for your insight. I do appreciate it. |
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luffypirate
 Posts: 3187 |
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I've always watched my anime shows subtitled. The first shows I actually bought were the Japanese dialogue clamshell cases sets of El Hazard and the Gundam OVAs back in the late 90s. It was never because I hate dubs or anything, its just how I was introduced to anime. I've just recently started watching English dubs with my girlfriend. Some of the voice actors can be pretty funny! Todd Haberkorn in xxxHolic made me lmao on many occasions
 I think I'm going to go back and re-watch some shows I have dubbed.
I just have one issue with the whole debate. This was recently brought this up in a club I was at and was stunned by what I heard. Almost all of the people there watch dubs and they are pretty outspoken about it. They named off a TON of English voice actors from Inuyasha and Slayers, but when the Japanese cast for these shows was brought up NOBODY in the club was familiar with any of them (and there was like 20 people there!) Megumi Hayashibara and Kappei Yamaguchi, both very widely known actors, were used as examples from those shows. That just bugs me that some people are just strictly biased. That's just being ignorant. |
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