Forum

I live in Odense, the city where the exhibition is held. And of course I vent to see it. (I love Brants gallery, they always have a lot of provoking and different exhibitions.) And to be honest it's more a place to debate that an actual exhibition. You can write your opinion on the wall or on sticky notes.
The majority of poeple were opposed to a ban, my favorite argumnet by far stated that if they banned art/comics that shows childen in a sexual way then they should also ban Bratz, Barbie and Hannah Montannah.

But the truth be told, a ban would be very stange to me. It doesn't seem like something we danes would do. : / I'm surprised that this is even up for debate. I personally don't see why something that doesn't harm anyone should be banned.

tarmie wrote:

But the truth be told, a ban would be very stange to me. It doesn't seem like something we danes would do. : / I'm surprised that this is even up for debate. I personally don't see why something that doesn't harm anyone should be banned.

There seem to be many merits to the Danes for which may be envied. Whilst a ban may not seem a very Danish thing to do — whatsoever such things are — it is nevertheless the case that many other respectable nations have seen nothing ill in outlawing the material in question.
It can only be hoped that further Handley cases will not occur within the nations in which precautions are imposed prior to conclusive support for them.

tarmie wrote:

I live in Odense, the city where the exhibition is held. And of course I vent to see it. (I love Brants gallery, they always have a lot of provoking and different exhibitions.) And to be honest it's more a place to debate that an actual exhibition. You can write your opinion on the wall or on sticky notes.
The majority of poeple were opposed to a ban, my favorite argumnet by far stated that if they banned art/comics that shows childen in a sexual way then they should also ban Bratz, Barbie and Hannah Montannah.

But the truth be told, a ban would be very stange to me. It doesn't seem like something we danes would do. : / I'm surprised that this is even up for debate. I personally don't see why something that doesn't harm anyone should be banned.

well sure hope your right... there is an election underway with the way the votes lie at the moment... and there are probbably votes to be gained by being against the exhibit as many will act on child pornography which there last discussion on the subject ended with... and it is easy to make people believe it is the same... especially since norway and sweeden has banned it... unless it has artistic value - wierd laws in my opinion

Zin5ki wrote:

tarmie wrote:

But the truth be told, a ban would be very stange to me. It doesn't seem like something we danes would do. : / I'm surprised that this is even up for debate. I personally don't see why something that doesn't harm anyone should be banned.

There seem to be many merits to the Danes for which may be envied. Whilst a ban may not seem a very Danish thing to do — whatsoever such things are — it is nevertheless the case that many other respectable nations have seen nothing ill in outlawing the material in question.

And I see no ill in actions by those other nations resulting in a serious loss of respect for them. But I generally don't hold an entire nation accountable for poor decision making, it's usually a smaller but powerful entity creating a shift in apparent public attitudes. Dysfunctionality occasionally happens in the Judicial/Legislative process of every country.

abunai wrote:

I now return you to your regular programming of speaking in tongues and foaming at the mouth.

Seems to happen a lot around here, over the same issues too. At times I am tempted to just simply post "anime is srs buizness", but somehow I think that might not go over well with the moderation team.

Hayami wrote:

Shiroi Hane wrote:

KAtchan15 wrote:

I'd rather have SICK old pedo's masturbating to H-loli/shota manga, than having them go out there to actually rape and seduce children. Sheesh man...let them have their fun. Everyone has different inclinations.

Would you be happy with this sick old paedo showing showing H-loli/shota manga to some real kids and suggesting they copy the pictures?
The concept of grooming isn't something that clicked right away with me but once it did, it became the most valid and persuasive argument I've seen against such material.

Somehow I doubt that the effect of showing loli manga to kids would make them want to copy it much more than an average guy would want to copy a yaoi manga. Perhaps kids are easier to influence, but loli manga isn't created for this purpose, it's created to appeal loli art fans. I doubt that a kid would wish to identify him/herself with characters in loli/shota manga. My guess is that the response would likely be something between "icky" and "boring".

What are the "ingredients" for a manga that's likely to appeal a little girl: a strong or a pure heroine (who stays pure), cool or/and cute boys like in Pretear (or a righteous male lead like Edward Elric), a story about/including romantic love or/and true friendship. A typical loli H manga doesn't just lack these values but rather defy them. Even a single loli H image would more likely cause an allergic reaction rather than any desire to imitate it - due to being saturated with unwelcome objectification.

It is doubtless that grooming does nevertheless occur and is a successful means for the predatory peado to use time and time again. Grooming comes in many forms and in many ways individually inventive by each perpetrator. I can see one using H-loli as a baiting tool. Yes maybe most kids will just say " ICK! get lost ya dirty old man!" But it's only the one that will take the bait and become entranced by what he/she is being told is "normal and okay in the adult world." Some kids want to grow up fast and will do some pretty daft things trying to be. The predators know this and are good at what they do to get their means to an end. It's this percieved grooming tool usage that causes child protection organisations, lawmakers, and enforcers to call for a ban. Wink

Mohawk52 wrote:

Hayami wrote:

Shiroi Hane wrote:

KAtchan15 wrote:

I'd rather have SICK old pedo's masturbating to H-loli/shota manga, than having them go out there to actually rape and seduce children. Sheesh man...let them have their fun. Everyone has different inclinations.

Would you be happy with this sick old paedo showing showing H-loli/shota manga to some real kids and suggesting they copy the pictures?
The concept of grooming isn't something that clicked right away with me but once it did, it became the most valid and persuasive argument I've seen against such material.

Somehow I doubt that the effect of showing loli manga to kids would make them want to copy it much more than an average guy would want to copy a yaoi manga. Perhaps kids are easier to influence, but loli manga isn't created for this purpose, it's created to appeal loli art fans. I doubt that a kid would wish to identify him/herself with characters in loli/shota manga. My guess is that the response would likely be something between "icky" and "boring".

What are the "ingredients" for a manga that's likely to appeal a little girl: a strong or a pure heroine (who stays pure), cool or/and cute boys like in Pretear (or a righteous male lead like Edward Elric), a story about/including romantic love or/and true friendship. A typical loli H manga doesn't just lack these values but rather defy them. Even a single loli H image would more likely cause an allergic reaction rather than any desire to imitate it - due to being saturated with unwelcome objectification.

It is doubtless that grooming does nevertheless occur and is a successful means for the predatory peado to use time and time again. Grooming comes in many forms and in many ways individually inventive by each perpetrator. I can see one using H-loli as a baiting tool. Yes maybe most kids will just say " ICK! get lost ya dirty old man!" But it's only the one that will take the bait and become entranced by what he/she is being told is "normal and okay in the adult world." Some kids want to grow up fast and will do some pretty daft things trying to be. The predators know this and are good at what they do to get their means to an end. It's this percieved grooming tool usage that causes child protection organisations, lawmakers, and enforcers to call for a ban. Wink

What I meant is that in my opinion on average a predator would only increase his chances to fail by using a loli H manga (as explained above).

I doubt that the most of these making the assumption of loli H manga being an effective grooming tool know this medium at all.

There're two distinct parts of possible or perceived danger (for record, IMO none of them is significant), let's not mix them.
- Part one is that the medium is just "out there" (in book stores, in museums, in the internet, etc.) Loli H manga is just a drop in the ocean of dangers ( or "dangers") to the minds of younger people.
- Part two is that the medium is actually used as a tool of grooming, which (in addition to its questionable "effectiveness") shouldn't happen often enough (if at all) comparing to usage of "normal porn" and real CP to be a good reason to discriminate the fans of this eromanga genre.

Hayami wrote:

I doubt that the most of these making the assumption of loli H manga being an effective grooming tool know this medium at all.

You may, but you will be viewed as naive to do so. They use the internet just as well as you and I, maybe even better as they need to be very clever not to be detected. Wink

Mohawk52 wrote:

Hayami wrote:

I doubt that the most of these making the assumption of loli H manga being an effective grooming tool know this medium at all.

You may, but you will be viewed as naive to do so. They use the internet just as well as you and I, maybe even better as they need to be very clever not to be detected. Wink

I'm tempted to suggest that you're much more likely to be viewed as naive for assuming that loli H manga is an effective grooming tool, but I suspect it could constitute soapboxing. Let's just stop here, shall we?

This is pretty damn stupid to have any controversy over it. It's not child porn.

Drunk_Samurai wrote:

This is pretty damn stupid to have any controversy over it. It's not child porn.

But there lies the controversy. Others say it is. Wink

Mohawk52 wrote:

Drunk_Samurai wrote:

This is pretty damn stupid to have any controversy over it. It's not child porn.

But there lies the controversy. Others say it is. Wink

Yeah but they're wrong Wink

Drunk_Samurai wrote:

Mohawk52 wrote:

Drunk_Samurai wrote:

This is pretty damn stupid to have any controversy over it. It's not child porn.

But there lies the controversy. Others say it is. Wink

Yeah but they're wrong Wink

And the band played on. Laughing

@ LordRedHand: I think our perspectives are so vastly different that even attempting to come to an understanding is doomed to failure but I think you're taking empathy a bit too far when you start talking about not killing one person to save the world.

I believe if you seek to prevent people from thinking freely and from creating things from those thoughts, you've taken away something precious. Of all human freedoms, isn't our ability to think and create one of the most important? We would be nothing more than animals without our intellects and our creative impulses. Regardless of how you view the material that is created, it is still a result of something central to the very reason human beings consider ourselves to be somehow special and unique in this world.

Also, just FYI, how does empathy apply here anyway? I can't speak to all of the material mentioned but the characters in Swing out Sisters and Spirit of Capitalism aren't exactly unhappy about their situations. If the characters enjoy their sexual activities, what's to emphasize with?

Even with actual H-loli manga, if the characters are happy, who are you feeling empathy for? Real life victims of sex crimes, correct? Yet those people are victims, usually forced to do things against their will. They weren't happy about it. If a girl in an H-loli manga is happy about her experiences, do you still find the manga to be bad?

When a woman enjoys sex, does her enjoyment in some way diminish the actual suffering of rape victims? If a loli in a manga is deeply in love with her sex partner, does that make the manga an affront to actual children who've been victims? How, when the characters aren't being forced and are actually happy about the experience? (If you're thinking all H-loli is in the rape genre, think again.)

I could sort-of understand feeling empathy for characters in stories set in the rape genre but I don't agree that fictional scenarios in any way diminish real-life suffering.

Shiroi Hane wrote:

Would you be happy with this sick old paedo showing showing H-loli/shota manga to some real kids and suggesting they copy the pictures?
The concept of grooming isn't something that clicked right away with me but once it did, it became the most valid and persuasive argument I've seen against such material.

Does that fact that porn with adults in it has been used for actual cases of grooming matter? Should all porn be banned to prevent any possible grooming? (Let's ignore how rare the grooming incidents actually are, just like most ignore that more children are molested/raped by family members, step-parents or mom's new boyfriend than by H-loli reading otaku.)

You're still justifying a position on hypotheticals and attacking fictional material. Might a dangerous child molester use an H-loli manga for grooming? Sure. A predator might also use a van for kidnapping or rope to tie up a victim or seduce their single mom to get close to a potential victim. There are countless methods that might be used. You can't ban or stop all of them. By what measure do you then decide what should be banned? Wouldn't it make the most sense to ban things that are highly linked to crime?

Statistically speaking, I can tell you a lot of things that are perfectly legal that are also clearly correlated with criminality. (Correlation and causation aren't necessarily the same thing but it is persuasive.)

Of course, the number of people who actually commit crime is such a small portion of humanity in general that really, it makes little sense to ban anything or to be against anything on the grounds of "criminals like it/used it." Criminals are aberrations from the norm regardless of what they do or do not use in the commission of their crimes.

Honestly, considering the exhibit didn't even have H-loli (a bit of false advertising in my opinion) the whole debate's a bit moot. However, I enjoy the intelectual debate for some reason. (Likely my masochism.)

@ Mohawk52: To think that an artistic representation of anything can be considered to be on-par with the real thing is a bit silly in my opinion.

Okay, here's a question: if any artistic representation of children in sexual acts or just depicted in a sexually exploitative manner are bad and should be banned or at the least considered on par with actual child pornography, then what about imagery of women who appear to be children but are in fact adults?

Should a woman who looks like a child be considered a child? Should an H-manga where all of the characters are strictly stated to be over 18/21/whatever-age-of-consent-you've-got-going still be considered child porn?

I ask because there have been several cases of men brought up on legal charges of possessing child porn where the "child" in question was an adult porn star. The pictures appeared to be of a "child" engaged in sex acts and no one bothered to even try and prove the material was of an actual child before prosecuting. (Evidence? She looked like a kid, that's all we need! We have to protect the children!)

If an artistic representation is on par with the real thing, then it is the appearance that's the issue, correct? After all, if the imagery is of clearly post-pubescent adult women, then it can't be child porn. (Let's ignore that puberty is hitting girls 7-year-olds and younger so breasts on a child aren't impossible.)

Or is it the stated age? If the artist turns around and labels the large-breasted, tall woman as being 9-years-old, is it then child porn? If the clearly child-like girls in an H-manga are labeled adults, is that child porn? If the porno of a real living girl looks like a child but is actually of an adult, is it child porn?

With real child pornography, you have an actual child who has been victimized (unless it's a boy and the abuser is an attractive woman, then he's not really a victim in the eyes of the media. Rolling Eyes

) and not merely a visual depiction of a child. It takes effort but you can prove that a child was actually abused to make that product. There's a real victim, a real damage to society, and not merely a fiction.

With an H-loli manga, there's no one. No real child is harmed. No real act of evil is committed. Just like a violent video game. I can hack apart people all damn day on a game, conquer the earth and nuke cities or even kill major political figures but it doesn't change the fact I've done none of those things in reality.

If I read an H-loli manga, what am I guilty of? What act have I committed? Where I have I harmed society?

If the point is to keep people from reading the material in some quest to keep them from thinking of children in a sexualized way, then how do you plan to stop the people who think of children as sex objects who've never read H-loli manga? I mentioned child beauty pageants as an example of REAL sexualization of children. Children being dressed in outfits that look like things showgirls wear and then they prance around and move in ways most people wouldn't call innocent at all! How do you prevent people from getting inappropriate thoughts there? Ban the pageants? How about stopping people from getting the thoughts just from looking at children? (I assume you don't support random eye-gouging for anyone who looks at a child and might be a pedo right?)

Banning things to prevent inappropriate thoughts is pointless because thoughts simply can't be controlled like that. Even if they could, it would be wrong to try! Freedom of thought and freedom to create are, as I posted before, the most important rights of human beings with the right to live being only slightly below them. (I very much agree with Patrick Henry's views on life and liberty.)

So after making a very long post a bit late at night when I should have been doing law school work (sue me. Wink

) my basic point is that I simply cannot consider lolicon hentai to be on par with child porn, I do not support any form of banning of art or free speech on general principle and quite frankly I just don't see how there is any reasonable fear of harm caused by the material.

We can argue over what we think of the material actually on display or loli hentai in general or whatever but I am just incapable of accepting the argument that H-Loli=Child porn.

Just as a side note, it never ceases to amuse me that in these sorts of threads, the religious and politically conservative are always attacked yet I'm both religious and likely one of the most politically conservative on this forum.

Ranma824 wrote:

Quote:

It contains erotic manga such as Taro Shinonome's Swing Out Sisters, Kondom's Bondage Fairies, Tuna Empire's The Spirit of Capitalism, Kengo Yonekura's Pink Sniper, and Yumisuke Kotoyoshi's Juicy Fruits.

Some nice selections there. Everybody needs to own a copy of Swing Out Sisters.

I just realized... I actually do have one of those titles. On a whim I bought Spirit of Capitalism in English. I hoped Tuna Empire's Viva Freedom would get translated. It's a hentai about 9/11. No.. really. Kinda surprised this exhibit doesn't have that one. It's got George Bush, Saddam, and Osama Bin Ladin in a porn comic.

Yet someone at Icarus Publishing actually commented on a message board when I asked about it in a thread about censorship issues in comics. He said they backed off publishing it in the US. They had serious concerns that the Department of Homeland security would stop publication of the book. Good thing I got the import off J List. Er.. I mean.. I don't have a copy or anything.. um.. is that a black helicopter I head outside?

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Danish Museum Holds Controversial Manga Exhibit

BAKERU Game Review

SPY×FAMILY Volumes 11-12 Manga Review

Ninja Scroll Signed Shikishi Giveaway!

The Condemned Villainess Goes Back in Time Novels 1-2 Review

This Week in Games - Good News, Bad News, and Just News

ODDTAXI's Baku Kinoshita On His New Film, Housenka

Your Anime Rankings - Best of Summer 2024, Aug 26-Sep-1

Shadow of the Ninja Reborn Game Review

This Week in Anime - Cashing In

The Exiled Heavy Knight Knows How to Game the System Manga Gets TV Anime by GoHands

Forum - View topicNEWS: Danish Museum Holds Controversial Manga Exhibit

Forum

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Danish Museum Holds Controversial Manga Exhibit