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killjoy_the
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 2475
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:51 am
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^ The Raildex universe does have some stuff to say about "heroes" but it's mostly completely unrelated to the esper stuff. The closest thing the esper system has to such a thing would be Judgement, their voluntary student police force. Anti-Skill, the closest thing to an actual police force, are also made of teachers and the like, but without any sort of esper power.
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Animegomaniac
Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4157
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:19 am
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I'm a fan of superheroes and been so for years, decades, even- so naturally I loathe both of these series. L-o-a-t-h-e, yeah, that's right. Spider-man, Batman, Superman I'm fine with those guys but...
With One Punch Man, I couldn't get into the "murder as side affect of comedy" that's the core of the first few episodes. Take Mosquito Woman, please. Whether a woman who gained the sucking powers of... you know the drill here... or a mosquito made sentient... no, all thinking is moot because her existence, and all the people she killed... for some reason... was to be the punchline for a very lame joke.
Wow, it's a superhero parody on the level of the Tick, just missing all the things that made the Tick great, like comedy, passion and intelligence. Not from the Tick, from Arthur but someone has to have the leash or you end up the guy with all the power and no responsibility. And with great power...
Comes My Hero Academia which I lost interest in a record "next episode preview" at the end of the first episode. The world presented as being mostly superheroes so logically the guy to follow would be the hero who does it without any powers. In a world of Superman, Batman is the interesting guy. Right?
Ah, WSJ, you follower of the lowest common denominator, you. If you were going to do that then do that from the start, then just do it because the world was also set up so origin stories was obsolete. Hey, were you born? Well, 4 out of 5 chance you have some random power. It's like the author had his own idea but then his editor said:
"No, do this, it'd be more popular. Remember MxO?"
"Yeah, that series was awesome!"
"Don't be that series, it was cancelled."
My second favorite part is the origin stories so, yeah, neither series does much for me there either. My favorite part were the repeat villains- fan of the rogues gallery, yo!- so, yeah, killing them? Yeah, really doesn't do it for me.
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:09 pm
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whiskeyii wrote: | I find Witchblade's situation to be particularly ironic, because one of the artists on a Witchblade run ended up doing the very snarky, funny Witchblade spin-off Switch. |
Oh yes, I forgot about that. But you bring up another point: Humor in American comic books, from the ones I've read and from browsing in comic book stores, tend to fall into dedicated series or single stories. That is, if you want to pick up an American comic book looking for a laugh, you find a comedy series.
I do wonder if the presence of comic strips, which are predominantly comedy, has anything to do with the lack of humor in American comic books though. Maybe the idea is that people can get their laughs there.
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Johan Eriksson 9003
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 281
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:48 pm
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Animegomaniac wrote: | I'm a fan of superheroes and been so for years, decades, even- so naturally I loathe both of these series. L-o-a-t-h-e, yeah, that's right. Spider-man, Batman, Superman I'm fine with those guys but...
With One Punch Man, I couldn't get into the "murder as side affect of comedy" that's the core of the first few episodes. Take Mosquito Woman, please. Whether a woman who gained the sucking powers of... you know the drill here... or a mosquito made sentient... no, all thinking is moot because her existence, and all the people she killed... for some reason... was to be the punchline for a very lame joke.
Wow, it's a superhero parody on the level of the Tick, just missing all the things that made the Tick great, like comedy, passion and intelligence. Not from the Tick, from Arthur but someone has to have the leash or you end up the guy with all the power and no responsibility. And with great power...
Comes My Hero Academia which I lost interest in a record "next episode preview" at the end of the first episode. The world presented as being mostly superheroes so logically the guy to follow would be the hero who does it without any powers. In a world of Superman, Batman is the interesting guy. Right?
Ah, WSJ, you follower of the lowest common denominator, you. If you were going to do that then do that from the start, then just do it because the world was also set up so origin stories was obsolete. Hey, were you born? Well, 4 out of 5 chance you have some random power. It's like the author had his own idea but then his editor said:
"No, do this, it'd be more popular. Remember MxO?"
"Yeah, that series was awesome!"
"Don't be that series, it was cancelled."
My second favorite part is the origin stories so, yeah, neither series does much for me there either. My favorite part were the repeat villains- fan of the rogues gallery, yo!- so, yeah, killing them? Yeah, really doesn't do it for me. |
Yeah, I must again call some projection bias here. People seem really attached to this idea of Midoriya being set up as a Batman-type character who turns out better than all the other heroes by sheer determination, ignoring the fact that this was never to premise of the story in the first place.
Also, I can't fault you for not liking a brand of comedy that makes light of lives being lost, but anyone who thinks OPM lacks intelligence and (most of all) passion, clearly wasn't watching the same show I was.
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Gemnist
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 1761
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:32 pm
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Can't believe I never mentioned my favorite hero. I'm a huge fan of American superheroes but have really settled on Japanese ones. My favorite American hero is Spider-Man, mainly because he's completely relatable to me as a person - a bit shy and neutral on the surface but after clicking the right buttons becomes a hilarious person that always wants to do the right thing.
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pikabot
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 169
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:43 pm
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I feel like this article is missing a discussion of how in both MHA and One-Punch Man, the regulation and legitimizing of superheroics leads to a class of people who, despite being officially labelled 'heroes', have less-than-heroic motivations, either greed for money or a lust for fame and power. MHA in particular plays on this tension, and it's a fairly important thematic consideration from the very first chapter of the manga. While both of these series do feature very Japanese power structures, they're also pretty sharply critical of them, and in both cases those power structures are supported by the efforts of one exceptional man, who is either perpetually trapped in obscurity (Saitama) or who is essentially an outside force (All Might). Society may look up to the hero institutions of their respective series, but they're ultimately powerless to address major problems and a source of many problems themselves.
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Just-another-face
Joined: 08 Feb 2014
Posts: 324
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:18 pm
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I think the real divide lies in the fact that we don't really "get" each other's superheroes due to cultural differences. Japan doesn't entirely understand Western superheroes like the Avengers and we don't entirely understand Japanese superheroes like Science Ninja Team Gatchaman.
There are quite a few differences to take into account, likely the biggest one being Western superheroes tend to use a lot of violence to get things done, whereas Japanese ones could be pegged as not using enough force to solve criminal problems. Some of our heroes aren't above killing bad guys as a measure to prevent future crimes or endangerment of innocent lives, often descending into vigilantism in the process. Some of their heroes spare their adversaries too often, thinking that by being humbled in battle they can reform and change their ways.
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:50 pm
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Just-another-face wrote: | Some of our heroes aren't above killing bad guys as a measure to prevent future crimes or endangerment of innocent lives, often descending into vigilantism in the process. Some of their heroes spare their adversaries too often, thinking that by being humbled in battle they can reform and change their ways. |
That's actually the dividing issue in Kingdom Come: The classic heroes are always sparing the villains, who always break out or serve their sentences and continue to commit more atrocities, and the public has grown sick and tired of that (some even go so far as to blame the heroes for allowing them to kill more people or destroy more things). The new heroes kill off these villains and become more popular with civilians. That being said, the classic heroes spare the villains not out of forgiveness or to humble them, but because of their code: As the public symbol of good, they should be good to all people, even the villains.
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relyat08
Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:35 pm
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pikabot wrote: | I feel like this article is missing a discussion of how in both MHA and One-Punch Man, the regulation and legitimizing of superheroics leads to a class of people who, despite being officially labelled 'heroes', have less-than-heroic motivations, either greed for money or a lust for fame and power. MHA in particular plays on this tension, and it's a fairly important thematic consideration from the very first chapter of the manga. While both of these series do feature very Japanese power structures, they're also pretty sharply critical of them, and in both cases those power structures are supported by the efforts of one exceptional man, who is either perpetually trapped in obscurity (Saitama) or who is essentially an outside force (All Might). Society may look up to the hero institutions of their respective series, but they're ultimately powerless to address major problems and a source of many problems themselves. |
Yeah, that's more or less what I was trying to say before, but just couldn't put it into words very successfully. These organizations aren't really seen as good. Nor are they very successful at regulating some of the more unsavory members within them. They are actually almost always a huge point of conflict in their shows. Concrete Revolutio and Gatchaman Crowds discuss that pretty extensively.
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Beatdigga
Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 4596
Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:38 pm
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One Punch Man, at its core, could be seen as a criticism of beuracracy. If you want a comic where heroes address it, that's Squadron Supreme.
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Stuart Smith
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:47 pm
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Just-another-face wrote: | There are quite a few differences to take into account, likely the biggest one being Western superheroes tend to use a lot of violence to get things done, whereas Japanese ones could be pegged as not using enough force to solve criminal problems. Some of our heroes aren't above killing bad guys as a measure to prevent future crimes or endangerment of innocent lives, often descending into vigilantism in the process. Some of their heroes spare their adversaries too often, thinking that by being humbled in battle they can reform and change their ways. |
Are you sure you didn't get that mixed up? Because Japanese heroes are usually the ones that kill without hesitation. It's usually the comic heroes making excuses for their rogue galleries to keep them around. Toku heroes usually kill someone each episode even if they beg for forgiveness or are just being used by the villain. Batman defended the Joker when he got put on Death Row by the police, and Spider-Man leaves villains for the police rather than just killing them and moving on.
-Stuart Smith
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Ali07
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 3333
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:51 pm
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johan.eriksson.9003 wrote: | Yeah, I must again call some projection bias here. People seem really attached to this idea of Midoriya being set up as a Batman-type character who turns out better than all the other heroes by sheer determination, ignoring the fact that this was never to premise of the story in the first place. |
Yes, "projection bias"...or, you could've been been lead to believe that Batman = Midoriya due to the synopsis given for the series.
ANN wrote: | Mankind has developed superpowers known as "Quirks" with 80% of the population having some kind of superpower. These new abilities see the rise of both superheroes and villains. A prestigious school known as the The Hero Academy trains superpowered hopefuls into the heroes the world needs. Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he's part the 20% without a Quirk. Unwilling to give up his dream, he plans to take the exam and be accepted into a high school for budding heroes. Through a series of serendipitous events, he catches the eye of the greatest hero, All Might, who agrees to train him. |
Sounds like it contains a character without a power to me. But, lets look elsewhere.
My Anime List wrote: | The appearance of "quirks," newly discovered super powers, has been steadily increasing over the years, with 80 percent of humanity possessing various abilities from manipulation of elements to shapeshifting. This leaves the remainder of the world completely powerless, and Izuku Midoriya is one such individual.
Since he was a child, the ambitious middle schooler has wanted nothing more than to be a hero. Izuku's unfair fate leaves him admiring heroes and taking notes on them whenever he can. But it seems that his persistence has borne some fruit: Izuku meets the number one hero and his personal idol, All Might. All Might's quirk is a unique ability that can be inherited, and he has chosen Izuku to be his successor! |
Hmm, no mention of his power...does sound like the guy without a power is being given a massive honor by his "Superman".
Funimation wrote: | Izuku has dreamt of being a hero all his life—a lofty goal for anyone, but especially challenging for a kid with no superpowers. |
Yes, you labeling this purely as a bias view seems very disingenuous to me.
VIZ wrote: | Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he hasn’t got an ounce of power in him. |
While this may not have been the premise of the story, it's certainly a major point made in the plot synopsis on some pretty big anime websites. Hell, 2 of the licensors for the series sell this point. It's a guy without powers, so of course some people will actually expect...a guy without powers. This is what was "sold" to them.
It's very hard to call this "projection bias" when this is the plot synopsis given. If there was no mention of the character not having a power, then I can see why anyone would think someone else was projecting something that was never there onto the series. But, this doesn't seem to be the case at all.
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Just-another-face
Joined: 08 Feb 2014
Posts: 324
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 1:13 am
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Stuart Smith wrote: | Are you sure you didn't get that mixed up? Because Japanese heroes are usually the ones that kill without hesitation. It's usually the comic heroes making excuses for their rogue galleries to keep them around. Toku heroes usually kill someone each episode even if they beg for forgiveness or are just being used by the villain. Batman defended the Joker when he got put on Death Row by the police, and Spider-Man leaves villains for the police rather than just killing them and moving on. |
No, I didn't get that mixed up. We often get accused of preferring violent deaths to sparing lives, no matter how villainous. Even Japanese gamers said it themselves in response to their games getting the same censorship we're getting: we seem to enjoy killing off our opponents.
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zrnzle500
Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3768
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 1:48 am
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Ali07 wrote: |
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote: | Yeah, I must again call some projection bias here. People seem really attached to this idea of Midoriya being set up as a Batman-type character who turns out better than all the other heroes by sheer determination, ignoring the fact that this was never to premise of the story in the first place. |
Yes, "projection bias"...or, you could've been been lead to believe that Batman = Midoriya due to the synopsis given for the series.
ANN wrote: | Mankind has developed superpowers known as "Quirks" with 80% of the population having some kind of superpower. These new abilities see the rise of both superheroes and villains. A prestigious school known as the The Hero Academy trains superpowered hopefuls into the heroes the world needs. Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he's part the 20% without a Quirk. Unwilling to give up his dream, he plans to take the exam and be accepted into a high school for budding heroes. Through a series of serendipitous events, he catches the eye of the greatest hero, All Might, who agrees to train him. |
Sounds like it contains a character without a power to me. But, lets look elsewhere.
My Anime List wrote: | The appearance of "quirks," newly discovered super powers, has been steadily increasing over the years, with 80 percent of humanity possessing various abilities from manipulation of elements to shapeshifting. This leaves the remainder of the world completely powerless, and Izuku Midoriya is one such individual.
Since he was a child, the ambitious middle schooler has wanted nothing more than to be a hero. Izuku's unfair fate leaves him admiring heroes and taking notes on them whenever he can. But it seems that his persistence has borne some fruit: Izuku meets the number one hero and his personal idol, All Might. All Might's quirk is a unique ability that can be inherited, and he has chosen Izuku to be his successor! |
Hmm, no mention of his power...does sound like the guy without a power is being given a massive honor by his "Superman".
Funimation wrote: | Izuku has dreamt of being a hero all his life—a lofty goal for anyone, but especially challenging for a kid with no superpowers. |
Yes, you labeling this purely as a bias view seems very disingenuous to me.
VIZ wrote: | Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he hasn’t got an ounce of power in him. |
While this may not have been the premise of the story, it's certainly a major point made in the plot synopsis on some pretty big anime websites. Hell, 2 of the licensors for the series sell this point. It's a guy without powers, so of course some people will actually expect...a guy without powers. This is what was "sold" to them.
It's very hard to call this "projection bias" when this is the plot synopsis given. If there was no mention of the character not having a power, then I can see why anyone would think someone else was projecting something that was never there onto the series. But, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. |
While on the whole you're on point, MAL's does say explicitly that All Might passes down his power to Izuku, so that one at least isn't misleading on that point.
While I would agree that calling it projection bias is uncalled for, I don't really think it's fair to hold the show not being what you thought it was against it. It has no obligation to be what you want it to be. At the beginning, this critique has more salience, but almost halfway through, what the synopsis said about the show is practically irrelevant for those who chose to watch it.
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Johan Eriksson 9003
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 281
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 2:29 am
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Ali07 wrote: |
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote: | Yeah, I must again call some projection bias here. People seem really attached to this idea of Midoriya being set up as a Batman-type character who turns out better than all the other heroes by sheer determination, ignoring the fact that this was never to premise of the story in the first place. |
Yes, "projection bias"...or, you could've been been lead to believe that Batman = Midoriya due to the synopsis given for the series.
ANN wrote: | Mankind has developed superpowers known as "Quirks" with 80% of the population having some kind of superpower. These new abilities see the rise of both superheroes and villains. A prestigious school known as the The Hero Academy trains superpowered hopefuls into the heroes the world needs. Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he's part the 20% without a Quirk. Unwilling to give up his dream, he plans to take the exam and be accepted into a high school for budding heroes. Through a series of serendipitous events, he catches the eye of the greatest hero, All Might, who agrees to train him. |
Sounds like it contains a character without a power to me. But, lets look elsewhere.
My Anime List wrote: | The appearance of "quirks," newly discovered super powers, has been steadily increasing over the years, with 80 percent of humanity possessing various abilities from manipulation of elements to shapeshifting. This leaves the remainder of the world completely powerless, and Izuku Midoriya is one such individual.
Since he was a child, the ambitious middle schooler has wanted nothing more than to be a hero. Izuku's unfair fate leaves him admiring heroes and taking notes on them whenever he can. But it seems that his persistence has borne some fruit: Izuku meets the number one hero and his personal idol, All Might. All Might's quirk is a unique ability that can be inherited, and he has chosen Izuku to be his successor! |
Hmm, no mention of his power...does sound like the guy without a power is being given a massive honor by his "Superman".
Funimation wrote: | Izuku has dreamt of being a hero all his life—a lofty goal for anyone, but especially challenging for a kid with no superpowers. |
Yes, you labeling this purely as a bias view seems very disingenuous to me.
VIZ wrote: | Middle school student Izuku Midoriya wants to be a hero more than anything, but he hasn’t got an ounce of power in him. |
While this may not have been the premise of the story, it's certainly a major point made in the plot synopsis on some pretty big anime websites. Hell, 2 of the licensors for the series sell this point. It's a guy without powers, so of course some people will actually expect...a guy without powers. This is what was "sold" to them.
It's very hard to call this "projection bias" when this is the plot synopsis given. If there was no mention of the character not having a power, then I can see why anyone would think someone else was projecting something that was never there onto the series. But, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. |
Yes, a kid with a huge handicap that keeps him from his dream is part of the premise, but not a single thing about any of those descriptions say anything about how he gets out of it, and that similarity alone is kind of shallow. This is where the projection-bias comes in. If people were just disappointed because they would rather have seen the Batman-schtick that would be one thing, but what makes this projection bias is the fact that they always seem to be convinced that the Batman-route was always what was intended for the series, despite the fact that the show makes no effort whatsoever to go in that direction. It's like they think that making Deku into Batman was the obvious and only valid choice, and that the Author either failed in delivering his intended message or was overruled by his editors at the last moment. I call it bias because it is a way of thinking that assumes intent with no real basis in the text. This is the way they wanted it to happen, so clearly it is what also should have happened and the author just failed. It's not like tackling this theme of disability from another angle is a valid way of doing it or anything.
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